Please Help - Training for College Athletics

[lacrosse206]

Hi all,

I am brand new to this whole gym culture and bodybuilding. I am a 2 sport athlete [Soccer and Lacrosse] and just recently graduated HS, and am moving on to college. I plan on playing MCLA/NCAA lacrosse this coming spring and want to get in better shape. I am currently 6'1 and only about 155, very lean. I have a very low BMI and a very high metabolism. I live less than a mile from a very nice Athletic Club with gyms and other facilities at my disposal, however due to my sports schedules this is the first time I am able to use them extensively.

I am looking to bulk up significantly, while maintaining my speed and getting much more muscle. I want to look like a p90x builder without losing any speed [due to size] but I don't want to lose wait, rather gain it. I don't lift at all so I think I should be able to gain muscle quicker than otherwise. I don't care the price of the workout, but what would you veterans advise in terms of workouts?

Once again:
Want to gain size
Want to gain alot of definition
Want to look ripped [Like post-P90x]
Don't want to lose athleticism or speed

What workout routine should I begin to achieve these results? [Ignore speed, because as long as the workout won't drop my 40 time from 4.55 to much higher, I can just get a speed trainer]


Thanks for your time and advice! Feel free to message me as well if thats easier!

***Not interested in any sort of steroids, PEDs or anything of the sort. All natural. Thanks!!!

 

[_cato_]

As a beginner, and given your goals, you are going to be best off probably with a 3 day/week (4 days max) weightlifting routine. Something like Rippetoe 3x5 is a good choice, which consists of (default program) 2 workouts which you alternate between on 3 nonconsecutive days a week.

Workout A
3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench Press
1x5 Deadlift

Workout B
3x5 Squat
3x5 Press
5x3 Power Cleans

Never work out 2 consecutive days. If you don't know how to do power cleans/can't find someone to teach you then you can substitute for 3x5 parallel rows or pullups/chinups. Every time you repeat an exercise on a new day, add 5 lbs, except deadlift where you should add 10 pounds. Warm up with around 3 sets of 2-5 reps before you go for your work sets listed above.

You can do speed/conditioning work in the mornings on the days you work out and then do weight training in the evenings.

The other option would be to do an upper/lower 3 day split if your legs can't take the squatting 3x a week while also doing speed/conditioning work; this depends on how much speed/conditioning work you intend to do.

Either way, you'll want to focus on compound lifts and increase the weight each time you perform an exercise.

Make sure you are eating a ton of food, or you aren't going to grow. I can't stress this enough. Especially if you are doing a ton of speed/conditioning work, which will burn a ton of calories. Don't neglect speed training. You will need to get stronger/faster to move more weight at the same speed as you are now.

 

[_cato_]

I am currently 6'1 and only about 155, very lean.
...
Once again:
Want to gain size
Want to gain alot of definition
Want to look ripped [Like post-P90x]
...

Just wanted to address this briefly. Given your height and weight, and as you yourself state, you are obviously not carrying much body fat. There are two ways you will look more "ripped" as you say, either you can gain muscle or you can lose fat. Obviously, you don't need to lose fat at this point.

Accordingly, you need to focus on lifting weights and on eating a ton of food. Any cardio/gpp/speed/conditioning type work that you do should be purely for performance purposes (for lacrosse), and not for the purpose of trying to reduce bodyfat, which you obviously already have very low levels of.

 

[lacrosse206]

Thank you!

That's all really great to hear, thanks again. I am curious what I can do now on those "off-days". Assuming I do the gym 4 times a weeks, what can I do for say, 2 more days of the week, that can take time while working on my goals?

Also, assuming I make good progress on the Rippetoe thing, how long-ish do you think til' I could start something more extensive like p90x?



I was thinking [before I asked about it on here] that I would try to build mass first than sculpt it, but than again I have no idea how it works so... At the weight I am at, and the height [I expect to top around 6'2] I am already defined mostly because I don't have much body fat. What sort of foods do you suggest [or anyone suggest] to consume in order to get bigger fast? I have a very high metabolism so just eating to eat may not help. And would mass gainer powder or protein powder be a good addition to a routine?

Thank you, alot!

 

[obsessedwliftin]

If you make good progress on a Rippetoe 3x5 or a 5x5 you will forget about all this P90x stuff. I have done both p90x and Insanity. Finished both programs when I was rehabbing from hernia surgery and could not lift heavy. Those programs are great for someone who needs to shed pounds and get back into somewhat decent shape but if you truly want to pack on muscle and size, compund movements like the ones mentioned above will get you there much better. In the shape your in now P90x would be a breeze. Insanity would be way to much cardio and cause you to burn the muscle you do have now since you are not carrying alot of fat. The only way to achieve the physique you are after is to hit the weights. Eat correctly, and make sure you are getting in the rest you need. Those off days? You are going to need these to allow your muscles to recover from weight training. I played soccer all the way through college so I know the cals you are burning bro. Sometimes more is just not better. Take a rest or your body will force you to through injury, lethargy, or you will simply see drops in your lifts or your performance on the field.

 

[Amp45]

So is the OP training for college athletics like the title of the thread states or aesthetics? These are two different methods of training..

 

[lacrosse206]

So is the OP training for college athletics like the title of the thread states or aesthetics? These are two different methods of training..

I am looking for a combination. Right now, here is a list of things I do/can do and I guess you guys could assess that to see where I am at?

I'm 6'1
155 lbs
Run a 4.6 40yd dash [MUST keep speed]
About a 6:00 mile
Curl 35s
Bench 160-165
28 curlups
70 situps - 60 seconds
42 cm forward stretch
36 pushups - 30 seconds

WHAT I EAT NOW***:
I haven't been active in my sports for a good 2 months since the end of playoffs, haven't been to the gym and this is what i've been eating:
Hot dogs
Chips, crackers etc.
Hot pockets, corn dogs, other microwavable J u n k
Not much red meat
Cereal, cinnamon buns for breakfast
>>> I haven't gained or lost any weight since the end of the season, haven't done much cardio or exercise. I keep getting told on other sites to "EAT RIGHT" but what does that imply for someone with a high metabolism like I do? Powders, Red Meat, Fruits and veggies?

That's just a bunch of basic information, I know it isn't impressive but I thought I would share just so you guys could get a little grasp on what I'm trying to do. And the main reasons I got recruited were for actual Lacrosse skills, height and speed. I'm not actually as weak as those things show, I just don't get to workout much because we practice 3 hours daily and focus more on running and skills in practice.


>>>To address your Q exactly: I was to improve my aesthetics first, and than once that is done, begin working directly on sports improvement. My logic behind this is that at my rate, I don't need to get that much bigger to succeed at the next level, and I can't lose my speed, but if I pack on aesthetically, some of those muscles will be of use in the sports world anyways. Plus I am playing in a beach town... So...

Once again you guys rock and are wayyy better than the people over at bodybuilding forums... Thanks!

 

[_cato_]

I'm 6'1
155 lbs
Run a 4.6 40yd dash [MUST keep speed]
About a 6:00 mile
Curl 35s
Bench 160-165
28 curlups
70 situps - 60 seconds
42 cm forward stretch
36 pushups - 30 seconds

So what this says to me is that you have very good medium distance speed, pretty damn good endurance speed, but strength wise you are quite far behind, which is to be expected since you don't really lift weights. Your bodyweight movements are good, but that's to be expected from an athlete of your level and weight. I'm guessing you play middie based on what you've said?

I think from a performance stand point, you can get faster at short and medium range and possibly long range as well, and obviously get stronger from lifting weights. Following a compound oriented program will also put size on you all over, which is something you need. Working out on a bodybuilder-style 5 day a week split won't be ideal for you for several reasons, among which are that first you are a beginner and second you are already having trouble gaining weight. Every additional weights workout you do means you need to eat even more just to balance out the caloric expenditure.

WHAT I EAT NOW***:
...
Hot dogs
Chips, crackers etc.
Hot pockets, corn dogs, other microwavable J u n k
Not much red meat
Cereal, cinnamon buns for breakfast
>>> I haven't gained or lost any weight since the end of the season, haven't done much cardio or exercise. I keep getting told on other sites to "EAT RIGHT" but what does that imply for someone with a high metabolism like I do? Powders, Red Meat, Fruits and veggies?

So obviously you eat like total shit. You should read the diet sticky on the diet forum on here: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/diet-bodybuilding/dieting-information-614057.html. Since I suspect you won't do that, the short of it is that you need to consume at least 3000 calories (as a place to start), and at least 1/3 of that should be coming from protein. At least ~310g of protein IDEALLY. The diet should most be made up from meat: e.g. Lean Hamburger Pork Chops Steaks Fish Shell Fish Chicken Turkey Ham; starches ie whole grain breads, potatos etc; fruits/vegetables; eggs, dairy (if you tolerate it well) etc. To simplify it further, hitting the total calories and hitting the protein goals should be most important to you.

>>>To address your Q exactly: I was to improve my aesthetics first, and than once that is done, begin working directly on sports improvement. My logic behind this is that at my rate, I don't need to get that much bigger to succeed at the next level, and I can't lose my speed, but if I pack on aesthetically, some of those muscles will be of use in the sports world anyways. Plus I am playing in a beach town... So...

I'm not sure how competitive you are trying to be at the college lacrosse level (whether you are trying to play D1 or whatnot), but I think you are underestimating the size of some of the people you are going to be playing against. Regardless of your stick skills and speed, if you're facing someone who's got 50+ lbs on you, which is completely feasible at this point, you're going to be pretty easily knocked on your ass. If you want to be really competitive at that level, you need to gain some weight.

With regard to routine, as I said earlier, I'd recommend starting with 3 days a week of weights. If you're dead set on doing 4 days with weights against my advice, then take a look at the ultimate training split sticky at the top of this forum: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/weight-training-weight-lifting/ultimate-training-split-650464.html. That's a good routine to start with for a 4 day split. Since you probably won't actually look at it, and since I've never seen anyone actually use that program when it was recommended, becausebeginners often insist on inventing their own garbage routines, here's a basic template:

(workout 1)

Bench Press or Board press variation 4 x 3-5

Wide Grip chin 4 x 6

Incline Dumbbell Bench Press 3 x 8

Barbell or Dumbbell Curl 3 x 8

Skull Crushers 3 x 10

(workout 2)

Squat or box squat 4 x 5

Glute/Ham Raises or pullthroughs 3 x 10

Ab work 3 x 10

forearms 2 x 20-30


(workout 3)

Incline bench press or Shoulder Press 4 x 5

Rows 4 x 8

Tricep pushdowns 2 x 10

Preacher curl 2 x 10

Ab work 3 x 10


(workout 4)

Deadlift or rack deadlift 4 x 5

Single leg squat variation 2 x 10

Calf Raises 3 x 15

Forearms 2 x 20

If you chose to do this, you would probably do your sprint/conditioning work on the upper body days. The article in the sticky actually addresses exactly how you can do that type of work.

Last, I agree with pretty much everything obsessedwliftin wrote above. You definitely shouldn't be doing p90x/insanity. And recovery is very important, you don't need to be doing exercise every minute of every day, especially when you're already having trouble with a "high metabolism," which usually translates to you aren't eating enough to support your current activity level.

 

[lacrosse206]

Damn, thanks man! I certainly will do what you guys are recommending, not sure what other beginners do but I have no expertise in the area and i'm at a point in life where I'm trying to improve myself in all aspects, and any advice is welcome so thank you!

I'll do the 3 day a week thing, not 4, I just wasn't sure if you said 3 OR 4 days because you weren't sure of my commitment. I'm going to be playing competitively at a high NCAA level so I certainly do need to gain weight, and that for me goes not only for performance but aesthetics too because I want to look bigger as well.

I do eat like complete shit, however that isn't saying that I can't eat well. If given a proper diet list or a list of what should be consumed [like you did[] I can certainly commit to eating properly. I'm not a couch-potato, I just didn't make it a point to change my performance and appearance until recently.

I'm assuming the 3 day workout would just be the first of the 3 workouts you posted, would that be in a row, or with a break between each day than a rest on weekend? Like I said, I have access to a very nice facility less than half a mile away in my neighborhood so commitment to going is no problem. However, I am not familiar with all the lift types/names/machines so should I just look on the internet for pictures of machines?




I realize I don't know shit about lifting or nutrition for it; The only guidance I have had in terms of fitness was a running coach we had for preseasons and he didn't even improve form so that was garbage. Thank you, I honestly appreciate all the help i'm getting!

IN REVIEW:
>Where can I found out exactly what the named lifts are? [Machines at my Athletic-Club aren't titled]
>What days of the week should the 3 workouts be done?
>Since i'm doing 3, what days should speed/agility be done? [I'm not going to do a full speed routine, just some basics to make sure I don't lose anything. Plan on eating more those days to catch up with cal-loss]
>At what point is starting a p90x/insanity routine feasible? I am really trying to get not only into top shape on the inside but I would also like to improve aesthetics greatly, to a typical post-p90x look

THANKS!!!

 

[lacrosse206]

Also this is clearly going to be a beginner's question... But does overeating in terms of calories damage the routine? I feel like I may be in situations where I reach the calorie intake but not the protein intake, in this case is it ok to just hit some protein powder to fill the protein need for that day?

And I did in fact print out that nutrition sticky and am going to review it. Looks like chinese to me now but I suppose understanding will come with time..

 

[FlexManning]

If you already play two sports that involve a lot of running and jogging and don't want to lose sprint speed I really think you shouldn't mess with anything like the p90x/insanity etc stuff. You should look at some of the stuff Charles Poliquin has written on the subjects you brought up. Here's an article he wrote a few years back about conditioning for soccer: Poliquin Performance Center - Chicago (PPC-C)

Basically he's recommending strength training with compound movements like squats and saying that the aerobic component in soccer is way overstated, it's more about intermittent sprinting than low quality aerobic work. He states that squats- which are no doubt the king of muscle building exercises- are almost universally done by the most successful speed athletes and should be done by soccer players.

I haven't read his opinion on p90x type training but I've seen him talk about similar ideas like CrossFit, stating, "If you only have one ass you can't sit on two horses."

He also states that it's a myth that soccer players shouldn't do upper body training also. So all around, as far as aesthetics and keeping your speed I'd say that the other posters are very much on the right track. If you did the 3x/wk split and wanted to fill in some of the other days I'd imagine sprinting on those days would be your best bet.

 

[_cato_]

I'm assuming the 3 day workout would just be the first of the 3 workouts you posted, would that be in a row, or with a break between each day than a rest on weekend? Like I said, I have access to a very nice facility less than half a mile away in my neighborhood so commitment to going is no problem. However, I am not familiar with all the lift types/names/machines so should I just look on the internet for pictures of machines?

As I said above, the program I recommend for you is called "Starting Strength" or "Rippetoe's." It's a 3x5 work sets routine (+ warmups). You do it on 3 nonconsecutive days, for example, monday wednesday, friday. Doesn't have to be those days specifically just any 3 days which are not touching each other. Nearly ALL questions you may have can be answered by reviewing this website: Starting Strength Wiki. To reiterate it's:

Workout A
3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench Press
1x5 Deadlift

Workout B
3x5 Squat
3x5 Press
5x3 Power cleans

Workouts A and B alternate on 3 non-consecutive days per week.


Along with the SS routine, and a excel spreadsheet to calculate the weights you should lift, there are three other similar novice programs on this specific page: The Starting Strength Novice/Beginner Programs - Starting Strength Wiki.


I recommend sticking powercleans in the routine somewhere since you are an athlete and they are good for speed/vertical jump/explosiveness. Regardless of which you choose, make sure you warm up every time you lift. For you, that probably means doing 1-2 sets with the bar, then increasing the weight by about 10-20 pounds until you get to your work sets.



Ideally, you should have a coach (or other knowledgeable person) who knows what they are doing show you how to do the lifts (even if its for 1-2 sessions). Don't get hurt doing things incorrectly. It may, however, be very difficult for you to find such a person. In that case, that site I linked to has instructional videos for all of the lifts in the program, found here specifically: Video - Starting Strength Wiki. You should watch the videos regardless of whether you find someone to coach you. If anything someone tells you significantly differs from something you see in those videos, that individual is probably wrong and/or full of shit. Just because someone is a coach/trainer, doesn't necessarily mean they know what the hell they are talking about, especially at a commercial gym.


Additionally, if you can somehow video your lifts and then post them here, we can comment and help you improve your form.

IN REVIEW:
>Where can I found out exactly what the named lifts are? [Machines at my Athletic-Club aren't titled]
>What days of the week should the 3 workouts be done?
>Since i'm doing 3, what days should speed/agility be done? [I'm not going to do a full speed routine, just some basics to make sure I don't lose anything. Plan on eating more those days to catch up with cal-loss]
>At what point is starting a p90x/insanity routine feasible? I am really trying to get not only into top shape on the inside but I would also like to improve aesthetics greatly, to a typical post-p90x look

1. Answered this above, you won't need any machines for the workouts we are discussing, just a barbell, a squat rack of some sort, and a bench (and possibly a bar you can do pullups from).
2. Answered this above, basically any three days of the week that aren't directly following each other. M/W/F, T/TH/Sat, Sun/Tues/Thurs, anything like this.
3. You have a few choices for the speed/agility. You can either do it A) in the morning before you do your weights, B) on your off days, C) on Saturday (assuming you're working out M/W/F), or D) some combination thereof. Basically, you want to do it so that it'll negatively effect your workouts the least (or none at all ideally). You may have to experiment a bit with this. Don't make too many decisions based on weeks 1-2 that you do the weights, because you're probably initially going to be sore as shit all day every day for the first two weeks until you adapt.
4. No F-ing p90x!! I told you before, the only way to "look better aesthetically" as you keep saying is to lose fat or to gain muscle. P90x is essentially a fat loss/cardio/body weight routine marketed mainly for men. You're doing shit like pushups, pullups, burpees, etc. What do you think will build up your chest more? Doing some pushups and some jumping jacks or benching 150 (or whatever) for 3 sets of 5, twice a week? The only people who are going to even gain muscle off that program, or programs like that, are probably completely untrained individuals (or recovering from surgery/an injury), in which case they can probably put on muscle from cycling a bike or doing almost anything. It's mostly oriented toward fat loss. As we already discussed, you don't need to lose fat at this time. Doing the SS routine and adding several inches to your chest/arms/legs will make you look better aesthetically.

But does overeating in terms of calories damage the routine? I feel like I may be in situations where I reach the calorie intake but not the protein intake, in this case is it ok to just hit some protein powder to fill the protein need for that day?

It's most important to get in the 3k calories. You don't need exactly 2x bodyweight grams of protein to grow, but the more you can eat, the better, and the more you'll probably grow. Protein powder is absolutely fine, just don't rely exclusively on protein powder to get in your daily intake. Eat meat. Don't worry too much about becoming an expert on nutrition right off the bat. It's more important to stick to general concepts and principles and you can learn the nitty gritty details over time.

 

[_cato_]

Here's an excerpt from the link flexmanning gives above which is particularly pertinent to you, given some of the things you've said (and yes I realize soccer isn't lax, but this applies regardless):

Soccer Training Myth #7: Strength Training will make you Slow

Tell that one to Olympic Gold medalists in bobsled, speed skating, track and field sprinting. Setting the drug issue aside, at his prime, Ben Johnson was respected by competitors not only for his lightning starts but his performance levels in the weight room and his well-developed thighs. Ben's leg training revolved around the squat. Since then, the training of World Class has shifted to greater volumes of work in the weight room. Increased strength will improve your ability to overcome inertia, and therefore will improve your short-term speed. By overcoming these myths you will become a better soccer player.

 

[obsessedwliftin]

Great stuff Cato and flex . Op you have your answers. Squats, Deads, and presses. Go heavy get strong and get the physique you desire period.

Posted with my Droid EO Forum App

 

[lacrosse206]

Thanks man! Assuming I took all your guys' comments the right way, here is what my plan is, and the goals to review.

Main sport: Lacrosse
Level: NCAA
What I want: Much more aesthetically pleasing form, and competitive edge
What I don't want to lose: Speed
What I plan on eating: 3000 cals per day, 300g protein per day, low to no junk food, period.
What I plan on doing: 3-day workout per week, breaks between. Small agility courses/low level sprints on one or two offdays per week, but nothing extreme on offdays. [Workout: As prescribed in earlier post, the 3 day split one]

I am doing this with a friend as well who is in the exact same position as me actually, both sizewise and goalwise so we will both be doing this.

What I said look about right?

 

[_cato_]

Yes. Looks good. Good idea to write your goals down also. Keeps you focused and your head on what you're actually trying to accomplish.

Don't shit a brick if you miss those diet numbers by a little bit once or twice or whatever. Also don't worry too much about having junk food on occasion. At your level of bodyfat it's not a huge deal, but it'll be tough to hit your desired macros and make good progress in strength and weight if you dont eat mostly good stuff. Just try to hit those numbers as best you can (or even exceed them if you're feeling hungry that day).

If you haven't gained any weight/gotten bigger after 4 weeks, then you are doing something wrong. Probably not eating enough, assuming you do the program as written with the sprint/agility work you have included.

You can use a scale and a tape measure to track your progress.

 

[lacrosse206]

Holy sh*t you guys are helpful... Thanks, I can tell you that I really do appreciate all this and the time you guys have put into commenting! I have one final question, just one, and its sort of stupid but oh well. I understand that doing the 3-day split routine with some agility/speed routine here and there will increase strength and size, etc. but will the muscle that is coming in be just size, or will it come in toned and defined as well? I guess what I'm saying is will I need to do more toning AFTER I get the size packed on with the 3-day split?

Once again you guys are f-ing helpful, thanks!

 

[lacrosse206]

If anyone is curious by the way, the schools i'm looking at right now to play for: University of Miami, University of Washington, Colorado University at Boulder [1st lacrosse, 2nd soccer]

 

[obsessedwliftin]

Holy sh*t you guys are helpful... Thanks, I can tell you that I really do appreciate all this and the time you guys have put into commenting! I have one final question, just one, and its sort of stupid but oh well. I understand that doing the 3-day split routine with some agility/speed routine here and there will increase strength and size, etc. but will the muscle that is coming in be just size, or will it come in toned and defined as well? I guess what I'm saying is will I need to do more toning AFTER I get the size packed on with the 3-day split?

Once again you guys are f-ing helpful, thanks!

No you won't have to do anything else. If you work that 3 day like Cato said you will add quality lean mass. Try it for 12 weeks. Take a pic of you now and then another after working hard in the gym for 12 weeks. You will be amazed at the results with an honest effort.

 

[lacrosse206]

Hey guys, unfortunately I had to go on visits to schools and than stayed in Florida for a while so I am just now getting home. I'm starting the Rippetoe's 3-Day on monday, and tomorrow/sunday just going to go in and work on lift technique. I got some protein supplements, any suggestions on foods I should eat to hit the 3k cals and 300p? I just don't want to be eating food i'm not supposed to in order to hit the benchmarks ya know?

 

[taste-icles]

HEY LAX! I hope I am not too late to the party, but I can answer your questions here on two fronts p90x and Lax. I am a current steadicam operator, and I played for a VERY well known Lax program right about the time you were learning to walk I also have recently done p90x. Now steadicam is very much like my old Lax days, it translates very well, so after a back injury, I decided to get back in to shape. I went to a training facility here in LA that helps out many famous athletes on their programs. I dropped close to $7500 in a few weeks and learned to improve my footwork, and this has been tremendous, but outside that, for Lax, it was... lacking. There are few specialized programs for Lax, it is all adhoc.

I grabbed p90x to get the cardio and flexibility back, went on to asylumn, and I'll tell you I am back in shape. I keep pace with many of the local university wide recievers and tailbacks, all while focusing, positioning the camera and avoding obstacles. Thay just have to run with a ball.

If you are good enough to get the chance to talk to a team to play for them, you have a pretty good shot. Your numbers sound solid, and depending on the coach and your position, you may wind up in a new position, or find yourself in a good training program once you get there, it won't come from expensive trainers or a DVD.