Please Help - Frustrated - Lack of Gains

[NateDogg]

Hello All,

Little background. I am 5'10" ~175-180 lbs bf pretty low, but little high for me because I am trying to bulk. I guess around 10-12%. Now, I have been lifting on a serious level for more than 2 years, with minimal gains. My major question is this: I get sore, VERY SORE or not so sore every time I lift, any body part. If I go balls out I get sore and sometimes stay that way for 4-5 days. If I take it easier (not often) I still get a little sore, maybe lasts for a day or two. Why do I get so sore and have it stay with me for so long eventhough I have been lifting with high intensity for quite a while? Here is my current split:

SUN - squat 5X5
Leg X - 3X10-12
Hack squat calves - 2X15-20
Leg Curls (if hams are not sore) - 3X10-12

MON - rest

TUES - Flat bench DB press - 5X5
Hammer Strength lying bench press - 5X5
Flat DB flye - 3X10-12
DB overhead press - 5X5
cable lat raise - 3X10-12

WED - rest

THURS - Conventional Deadlifts - 5X5
Hammer Stregth iso-row - 5X5
Close Grip pull-down - 5X5
reverse flye on pec-dec - 2X15-20

FRI - rest

SAT - close grip press 5X5
DB French press - 2X10-12
standing BB curl - 5X5
incline curl - 2X10-12

Please, everyone, throw out an opinion here. I have battled with gaining for a while now. Also, I do not have a planned out diet per say. However, I kept a diet journal for a week or so. That told me that I was eating about 3,500 calories, 200 grams of protein. I can not seem to remember what the carbs and fat was, but I am, IMO eating PLENTY! I eat a meal that is high in protein and either good fat, or carbs every two to three hours.

ND

 

[Dooley]

Actually.. the fact that you are getting sore is a good thing IMO... that means you've thoroughly taxed the muscle enough to cause DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness). As I'm sure you know, when you do strength training activities, you are creating small tears in the muscle fiber. As you are recovering, the muscle fibers are being rebuilt stonger and bigger than they were before. I've been lifting for several years, and although I am still gaining some size, I RARELY get that soreness. You know what that means? It means I'm not lifting hard/heavy enough. So it sounds to me like you're actually on the right track.. make sure to supply ample recovery time for your muscles to heal back up, and try drinking more water maybe? Good luck!

 

[NateDogg]

Thanx Dooley,

I thought DOMS was a bad thing? My understanding was that soreness = tiny muscle tears = good thing: DOMS = muscle tears are too large and muscle has to fight to get back to where it was = does not get bigger. I drink over a gallon of water a day, so that's not it, thanks for the help though!!

ND

 

[aurelius]

NateDogg

Check the "soreness dilemma" thread for info.

 

[NateDogg]

I read the "soreness dilemma" thread already. That is kind of what prompted this thread. Typically, when I lift hard, I will feel sore, just from lactic acid, right after my workout. Then that will subside. The next morning, and usually for a few days, I will feel SORE. If this is bad, I am wondering what I am doing wrong. I have been lifting for quite a while, and take a week off here and there to recover, but when I get back into it, it's the same old thing. I do not feel that I am overtraining as I have none of the symptoms other than only very slight gains over a relatively long period of time. Any other opinions? Or thoughts as to whether or not I am experiencing DOMS. I posed this question on the "soreness dilemma" thread also, but it was not answered. How long does soreness have to be "delayed" for it to be considered DOMS. If I workout in the afternoon and start to feel sore late that night, is that "delayed?"

TIA,

ND

 

[needsize]

Your routine does look decent but that kind of soreness could result from a number of things. Are you getting enough protein, say around 200grams a day from 6 or so meals/snacks.
One thing you could try is to take 1000mg of vitamin c right after your workout or just prior. I read that it helps flush the crap out of your muscles that builds up during the workout, ie lactic acid, I have been taking it right after my workout for a while and have noticed a difference

 

[NateDogg]

Thanx needsize. I am getting enough protein for sure, most of it from chicken, steak and tuna. I'll have to try the vitamin c thing. I do take 1000 mg a day already, but I'll try moving it to right before my workout.

ND

 

[needsize]

I would do the 1000mg prior to workout in addition to what you already take as you absorb much more of a water soluable vitamin when taken with food as it slows down it's trip through your digestive system, but the "c" that you take prior to working out will be on an empty stomach.
Did that make sense to anyone but me?

 

[CytoMel]

Nate, you are not growing because you are using only 1 out of 3 strenght training methods. You use the repetition method but you need the dyamic effort method and the maximal effort method. i bet that you will grow quickly by converting from thaty bullshit 5 x 5 bodybuilding routines to the westdide powerlifting routine. check out www.elitefts.com and go to articles and check out peridization part 2 by Dave tate which is also on www.testosterone.net

Your diet is fine, but your training routine is bullshit, You havent gained at all lately, what do you have to lose in converting to powerlifting? Also there are plenty of good people on the PL forum also that can help. I increased by bench by nearly 100 pounds in less than a year. Also my chest, delts and tris have also grown a lot too...JOIN US!!!

 

[Dooley]

What the hell was that post???

 

[Complete Muscle]

I also get sore... I mean SORE! There's debate on what actually causes the DOMS. I've heard one theory that it comes from the connective tissues not even the muscles. Bottom line - we don't really know. I believe the pain is there for a reason, just not sure exactly what it means. Well I have dealt with this extreme DOMS by decreasing my volume considerably. The funny thing is not only is the pain more manageable, but I'm growin!

I have a couple other questions NateDogg: when bulking do not you gain any weight? If not you need more cals - simple as that. And are you progressing? (adding weight and/or reps to the bar every week.) If so, adding strength = adding size eventually. If not there are different approaches to the dreaded plateau: forced reps, negatives, or my personal favorite fractional increments (adding one pound to the bar every week). Imaginine adding 20 pounds to your bench in 5 months?!! I'm no expert, but maybe my .02 might help a little...

 

[NateDogg]

I have a couple other questions NateDogg: when bulking do not you gain any weight? If not you need more cals - simple as that. And are you progressing? (adding weight and/or reps to the bar every week.) If so, adding strength = adding size eventually. If not there are different approaches to the dreaded plateau: forced reps, negatives, or my personal favorite fractional increments (adding one pound to the bar every week). Imaginine adding 20 pounds to your bench in 5 months?!! I'm no expert, but maybe my .02 might help a little...

I am not progressing how I would like to. I did just start the split above, and I am having a good experience with that so far. How does that split compare to the volume you cut down from in irder to make gains? This is also my first real attempt at bulking, and I have put on a couple lbs. What mainly bothers me is why, even after two years or so of pretty solid lifting, do I still get so EXTREMELY sore? It sound like you had the same experience? Can you post a split that has worked for you?

Thanks,

Nate

 

[needsize]

Nate, you are not growing because you are using only 1 out of 3 strenght training methods. You use the repetition method but you need the dyamic effort method and the maximal effort method. i bet that you will grow quickly by converting from thaty bullshit 5 x 5 bodybuilding routines to the westdide powerlifting routine. check out www.elitefts.com and go to articles and check out peridization part 2 by Dave tate which is also on www.testosterone.net

Your diet is fine, but your training routine is bullshit, You havent gained at all lately, what do you have to lose in converting to powerlifting? Also there are plenty of good people on the PL forum also that can help. I increased by bench by nearly 100 pounds in less than a year. Also my chest, delts and tris have also grown a lot too...JOIN US!!!

I freely admit that I don't know a whole lot about westside training, but I do know that the 5x5 routine, when done correctly, is an awesome program and I and the others I train get results from it every time.

 

[Enock]

I tried the 5x5 for calves about 4 days ago and bis about 2 days ago. SORE AS FUCK AWSOME. Those two muscle groups NEVER get sore and that did the trick. OF course soreness isn't any indication of growth but it sure feels good to actually feel like I trained those muscles the next day for once.

 

[Complete Muscle]

OK - Here goes. About a year ago, I was doing a traditional split routine. Although I made progress (since I was pretty new to lifting) I was REALLY SORE! Sometimes DOMS didn't delay much at all... I was sore immediately and I just kept getting sorer and sorer. And my energy level just dropped off about 6 or 7pm on work out days (I lift in the mornings). Then I started learning about HIT (High Intensity Training) and decided to give it a try. Here's how my training has evolved over the last year:

Routine 1. Basic HIT - General warm-up then 1 set to failure, whole body routine, mostly compound moves, once every 3-4 days:

Squat/Leg Press
Stiff Leg Deadlift
Bench Press
B.O./Cable Rows
Weighted Dips
Weighted Pull Ups
Shoulder Press
Standing Curls
Weighted Sit-Ups
Weighted Leg Raises

Comments: The whole routine was about 45 minutes. Soreness much more tolerable. Apparently recovery was better cuz I could repeat the whole routine in 3 or 4 days. I made good progress for 3+ months. I noticed after a while certain muscle groups recovered faster, so I began adding an extra set here and there (shoulders, biceps and legs). Pretty soon I had to split my routine cuz my it grew to 1 hr 15 minutes...



Routine 2. Modified 2-day split HIT routine - General warm-up, 2 working sets most exercises:

Day 1. (Upper Body)
Shoulder Press - 3 sets 8-10 reps
Pull Ups - 2 sets 8-10 reps
Bench Press/Dips - 2 sets 8-10 reps
B.O./Cable Rows - 2 sets 8-10 reps
Curls - 2 sets 8-10 reps

Day 2. Rest

Day 3. (Lower/Mid Body)
Leg Press/Squat - 3 sets 12-15 reps
Leg Curls - 2 sets 12-15 reps
Weighted Sit-Ups - 2 sets 8-10 reps
Weighted Leg Raises - 2 sets 8-10 reps
Weighted Side Bends - 2 sets 8-10 reps
Back Extensions - 2 sets 12-15 reps

Day 4. Rest

Day 5. Repeat Day 1, etc.

Comments: Again good progress, but after a couple months I started adding an extra set here and there on faster recovering muscle groups and pretty soon my routine was over an hour again. So enter split #3...



Routine #3. Modified HIT 4-day split routine. General warm-up, followed by:

Day 1. (Chest/Shoulders/Tris)
Shoulder Press - 3 sets 8 reps
Weighted Dips - 3 sets 8 reps

Day 2. (Midsection)
Weighted Leg Lifts - 3 sets 8 reps
Weighted Sit-Ups - 3 sets 8 reps
Weighted Side Bends - 2 sets 8-10 reps
Back Extensions - 2 sets 12-15 reps

Day 3. (Back/Bis)
Weighted Pull-Ups - 3 sets 8 reps
B.O. Rows - 3 sets 8 reps
Curls - 2 sets 8 reps

Day 4. (Legs)
Leg Press/Squat - 4 sets 15 reps
Leg Curl - 3 sets 12 reps
Calf Raises - 2 sets 15 reps

Day 5. Repeat Day 1, etc. BUT I take every Sunday off no matter what, and I take an extra rest day every so often if I need it.

Comments: Working well so far. I'm adding small increments (1.25 lbs) to the bar every session or two. Also with my current split I have more flexability with adding more sets on faster recovering muscle groups and still keep each session around 45 minutes.

I track my diet pretty closely and am at about 300-500 cals above maintenance at around 25/50/50 ratio (% of protein to carbs to fat). I am currently supplementing with 1-test/4-AD/Liver/Creatine/ALA at the moment so my recovery is real fast and DOMS is half of what it was w/o supps. It will be interesting to see how it goes after my "cycle" is over. I'm sure I'll be dropping some of those extra sets...

 

[needsize]

I tried the 5x5 for calves about 4 days ago and bis about 2 days ago. SORE AS FUCK AWSOME. Those two muscle groups NEVER get sore and that did the trick. OF course soreness isn't any indication of growth but it sure feels good to actually feel like I trained those muscles the next day for once.

I've never actually tried the 5x5 on calves, as I've always assumed that they need higher reps, but it could be worth a try. A major piece to using 5x5 for growth is the higher reps sets 8-10, that you do after the 5x5, that way you are stimulating both fast and slow twitch muscle fibres.

 

[CytoMel]

I freely admit that I don't know a whole lot about westside training, but I do know that the 5x5 routine, when done correctly, is an awesome program and I and the others I train get results from it every time.

The 5x5 program isnt inherently bad needsize but its obviously not working for natedogg because he has been training for 2 years and has little to show for it. It could be because nate needs to train with 1 rep max weights and take up powerlifting ideas. I dont know about the rest of you, but if I was doing 5x5 for 2 years and I didnt have anything to show for it, I would ditch it for a new system. Also there is a good quote on www.elitefts.com about sorness...something like, I could hit you with a baseball bat a bunch of times and you would be sore the next day, but you wouldnt grow.

 

[needsize]

CytoMel, I can agree with that, I usually follow a training program for 8-10 weeks before changing it with another approach, so if he has been doing the saem routine for that long, then that would explain a lot. 5x5 works great when cycled with other training ideas.

 

[jbw55]

Hello All,

Little background. I am 5'10" ~175-180 lbs bf pretty low, but little high for me because I am trying to bulk. I guess around 10-12%. Now, I have been lifting on a serious level for more than 2 years, with minimal gains. My major question is this: I get sore, VERY SORE or not so sore every time I lift, any body part. If I go balls out I get sore and sometimes stay that way for 4-5 days. If I take it easier (not often) I still get a little sore, maybe lasts for a day or two. Why do I get so sore and have it stay with me for so long eventhough I have been lifting with high intensity for quite a while? Here is my current split:

SUN - squat 5X5
Leg X - 3X10-12
Hack squat calves - 2X15-20
Leg Curls (if hams are not sore) - 3X10-12

MON - rest

TUES - Flat bench DB press - 5X5
Hammer Strength lying bench press - 5X5
Flat DB flye - 3X10-12
DB overhead press - 5X5
cable lat raise - 3X10-12

WED - rest

THURS - Conventional Deadlifts - 5X5
Hammer Stregth iso-row - 5X5
Close Grip pull-down - 5X5
reverse flye on pec-dec - 2X15-20

FRI - rest

SAT - close grip press 5X5
DB French press - 2X10-12
standing BB curl - 5X5
incline curl - 2X10-12

Please, everyone, throw out an opinion here. I have battled with gaining for a while now. Also, I do not have a planned out diet per say. However, I kept a diet journal for a week or so. That told me that I was eating about 3,500 calories, 200 grams of protein. I can not seem to remember what the carbs and fat was, but I am, IMO eating PLENTY! I eat a meal that is high in protein and either good fat, or carbs every two to three hours.

ND

This has happened to me in the past too and this is what I had to do. Take a SERIOUS OBJECTIVE view of your workout form and weights. Make sure you are doing your exercises properly and in the BEST form.

when I did this 2 things stood out for me, my back was underdeveloped and (by measuring every 3 months) I realized my upper arms were not growing. Through an objective look at my back routine I realized I was doing many exercises in bad form, I lowered the weight (suck the ego up and do it) and re-learned my excersizes by doing a leighter weight at STRICTER form. For instance, I could bent over row a lot of weight before, but wasn;t getting the contraction at the end (because of the heavy weight), I dropped the wieght and made sure to get full contractions to stress my inner back, and it did wonders. Same things with Curls, I was doing lots of weight in what I thought was good form (and I wasn't swinging the weight), but I dropped the weight used and focused on form and contraction and I have seen a good solid 1/2-3/4 inch improvement on my arms since.

Ask some folks in the gym that know what they are doing (these are ususally the big dudes) and ask for help or advice on form, or hire a PT for a session or two and just walk through your excersizes to assess your form. Once you get your form solid and you know how the exercise should feel when done properly than start to up the weight.

 

[enrage]

hit your hammies more. looks like you neglect them pretty bad

 

[NateDogg]

The 5x5 program isnt inherently bad needsize but its obviously not working for natedogg because he has been training for 2 years and has little to show for it. It could be because nate needs to train with 1 rep max weights and take up powerlifting ideas. I dont know about the rest of you, but if I was doing 5x5 for 2 years and I didnt have anything to show for it, I would ditch it for a new system. Also there is a good quote on www.elitefts.com about sorness...something like, I could hit you with a baseball bat a bunch of times and you would be sore the next day, but you wouldnt grow.

I just started 5X5 a couple weeks ago, and I am having a good experience with it so far. LMAO at the baseball bat quote. That is a major point of my questions though, that I am getting too sore. Speaking of which...

needsize, I took 1000mg of C and 400iu of E last night before my workout, I am MUCH less sore today than I believe I would have been had I not done so. I worked my ass off last night, chest and shoulders and I am not all that sore today. I know it's not that my muscles have gotten used to the workout, it just would not have happened like that IMO. For weeks I can barely move the day after my chest/shoulder workout, the next week I don't feel anywhere near as sore.

enrage, my hams get extremely sore after deadlifts, eventhough I do the conventional variety. I am not always able to hit them again the following Sunday with leg curls because they are still sore (not very, but still sore).

Thanks again for all the replies. I will be sure to keep everyone posted. I also am thinking of starting a log over at wannabebig, not sure yet though. I'm pretty good with excel so I might go that route too. Just have to sit down and create something user friendly.

jbw55, I have recently lowered my weights to get back to proper form, it has helped. It's funny that I start a frustrated with lack of gains thread just when I am possibly starting to get it together. With all of the help of people here. We'll see I guess.

ND

 

[Complete Muscle]

serious karma 4 U needsize!

...One thing you could try is to take 1000mg of vitamin c right after your workout or just prior. I read that it helps flush the crap out of your muscles that builds up during the workout, ie lactic acid, I have been taking it right after my workout for a while and have noticed a difference

I have tried this and it works big time! Why have I never heard this before??? Anyone who has extreme DOMS has gotta give this a try. Very noticeable difference the first time. Thanx bro!

 

[NateDogg]

Re: serious karma 4 U needsize!

I have tried this and it works big time! Why have I never heard this before??? Anyone who has extreme DOMS has gotta give this a try. Very noticeable difference the first time. Thanx bro!

I definitely agree, it has made a very remarkable difference in my soreness after a workout, and the time it has taken to get rid of it.

*UPDATE* 5X5 is definitely for me so far. I have had increases in almost every lift almost every week. Most notably, I got up to 85 lb DB's for 5 sets of 5-6, so now I am at 90's for a couple at 4 and a few at three. My squat has gone up 20 lbs in the last two weeks, and my deadlift has been improving as well *although I have taken a break from "heavy" squats and deadlifts due to some not good back paid lately. I have to go back to the drawing board on deadlift form. I did some very light sets yesterday and it is getting better though. I also warmed up with some hyper-extenstions, which I would recommend doing before deadlifting.

ND

 

[SSAlexSS]

Hello All,

Little background. I am 5'10" ~175-180 lbs bf pretty low, but little high for me because I am trying to bulk. I guess around 10-12%. Now, I have been lifting on a serious level for more than 2 years, with minimal gains. My major question is this: I get sore, VERY SORE or not so sore every time I lift, any body part. If I go balls out I get sore and sometimes stay that way for 4-5 days. If I take it easier (not often) I still get a little sore, maybe lasts for a day or two. Why do I get so sore and have it stay with me for so long eventhough I have been lifting with high intensity for quite a while? Here is my current split:

SUN - squat 5X5
Leg X - 3X10-12
Hack squat calves - 2X15-20
Leg Curls (if hams are not sore) - 3X10-12

MON - rest

TUES - Flat bench DB press - 5X5
Hammer Strength lying bench press - 5X5
Flat DB flye - 3X10-12
DB overhead press - 5X5
cable lat raise - 3X10-12

WED - rest

THURS - Conventional Deadlifts - 5X5
Hammer Stregth iso-row - 5X5
Close Grip pull-down - 5X5
reverse flye on pec-dec - 2X15-20

FRI - rest

SAT - close grip press 5X5
DB French press - 2X10-12
standing BB curl - 5X5
incline curl - 2X10-12

Please, everyone, throw out an opinion here. I have battled with gaining for a while now. Also, I do not have a planned out diet per say. However, I kept a diet journal for a week or so. That told me that I was eating about 3,500 calories, 200 grams of protein. I can not seem to remember what the carbs and fat was, but I am, IMO eating PLENTY! I eat a meal that is high in protein and either good fat, or carbs every two to three hours.

ND

try to do a 6day per week split. Hit each bodypart 3 times per week. Dont listen to HIT Jedi's, that is the most important advice that I can give you!

 

[juggernaut7]

!

If your not gaining the muscular bodyweight that u r lookin for,and you have a decent training program(i will give u a url for that in a second)your not eating enuff...ITS THAT FUCKIN SIMPLE....im REALLY NOT trying to be rude here...im tryin to get your results goin like u wanna see em goin buddy...i ate like a friggin bird the first couple of years that i lifted...and what did i get?stronger..yes...more muscular...definately....any appreciable size?...FUCK NO!reason being again?not enuff calories/protein.....first off...read over this info at the address at the bottom of this post,read thru the whole thing...lots of info on anabolics to start...but just wait...excellent training info when u get into it...try to apply the principles...even though they are ass backwards of alot of training programs....they work..i gaurantee it!then...EAT MORE....6-7 times daily...whatever it takes to get in the necassary calories...id say try 4000 cals and if that doesnt do it...UP IT AGAIN!

http://www.animalkits.be/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=253&forum=1&191

now...u can either shrug off the advice of myslef and the others of this board...and keep getting the same results...or lack thereof...or u can apply what youve just learned(hopefully) here and start growin like a motherfucker!

 

[Grantsdu]

Although I'm no expert on the subject but I do know that lactic acid build up in the muscles is what makes you sore. I don't think that just because you get sore after lifting that your working your muscles hard enough. I'm not saying your not working out hard by anymeans I'm just saying that you can't go by how sore you are.(from what I have been told) I work out hard and very very rarely get sore. Only time I get sore is when i have takes my regular week off and come back the next week and hit it hard. I have always have good luck with bananas, they help get rid of the extra acid build up in your muscles. Like I said before I'm no expert though!!!!!

 

[NateDogg]

Although I'm no expert on the subject but I do know that lactic acid build up in the muscles is what makes you sore. I don't think that just because you get sore after lifting that your working your muscles hard enough. I'm not saying your not working out hard by anymeans I'm just saying that you can't go by how sore you are.(from what I have been told) I work out hard and very very rarely get sore. Only time I get sore is when i have takes my regular week off and come back the next week and hit it hard. I have always have good luck with bananas, they help get rid of the extra acid build up in your muscles. Like I said before I'm no expert though!!!!!

Actually, lactic acid has NOTHING to do with muscle soreness. Muscle soreness is the tiny muscle tears (or larger ones if you overtrain) that occur when lifting. Also, soreness has nothing to do with intensity. If you do something your muscles are not used to, no matter how intense (to a point of course) you WILL get sore.

ND

 

[needsize]

NateDogg, glad to hear the program is working for you, it is by far my favourite program. My problem is that I don't like to stop doing it and I know you can't keep growing unless you change up your training.

 

[Complete Muscle]

NateDogg - I too am glad to hear you're progressing! Is your bodyweight increasing also? (I guess it must be.) And thanx again for the vit C tip needsize! Bananas??? I'll have to try that too! Gosh I could write a musclletech type ad for vit C and bananas and charge $99.95 for my new wonder-supplement!!!

 

[NateDogg]

Thanx again for the replies everyone. Yeah, my body weight has increased a little. I got back to deads a couple days ago, felt awesome. I went really light to see how my back felt, but it felt pretty good so next time I'll get back up to some heavier weights.

ND