Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below I just started an 8 week cycle of TestE at 350mg a week. Although I am still waiting for this to kick in, I was told I was overtraining at about an hour and a half of lifting (e.g) 1 1/2 hours Biceps/Back...followed by an 45 mintues of Cardio. My arms hurt really bad after, but it seems if I spend less time (45-1 hour) my arms don't hurt the next day -- which makes me think they're not being worked enough. Anyone has an opinion?
Overtraining? How Long To Lift
- Thread starter MGreen11
- Start date
jumpmaster82
Well-known member
IMO when on aas it is nearly impossible to overtrain, not completely impossible but almost. When off cycle 1.5 hours of intense lifting might very well be overtraining. But if your on I think it is highly unlikely.
Tatyana
Elite Mentor
You don't need pain for muscle growth.
People always think I spend HOURS and HOURS in the gym.
I have had the best results training 3-4 days a week for 30-45 min.
Hit it hard, hit it fast, get out, get some food down my neck and have a nap.
Overtraining is worse than not training at all for some people, and a MASSIVE mistake most people make at some point in their training.
People always think I spend HOURS and HOURS in the gym.
I have had the best results training 3-4 days a week for 30-45 min.
Hit it hard, hit it fast, get out, get some food down my neck and have a nap.
Overtraining is worse than not training at all for some people, and a MASSIVE mistake most people make at some point in their training.
sensational
New member
Tatyana said:
Very good post.
Would like to add that intensity, and knowing how to train correctly and intelligently are also key.
IMO, a 5 day split, hitting one or two muscle groups per day, real hard, is plenty. That cranks out to 40-45 minutes a day on weights
ryno9000
New member
Tatyana said:LOL, that is hit it HARD
Short breaks between sets.
Easy while in NYC cause I want to get my training done and go shoe shopping
So as opposed to talk of minutes/hours, what would you say is a good # of sets for volume intense workouts? Like lifting two muscle groups per workout, what would you say is good amount on cycle? Off cycle?
bigdofba
New member
I think overtraining is kind of overrated. In fact, I don't think a lot of people train hard enough.
It's really hard to say without knowing how intense you are going. Do you have a spotter that pushes you beyond your limits. You have to introduce the muscle to stress that it's not used to.
Just my opinon. If you are giving the muscle time to heal and repair I think you could hit it pretty hard in a day. Listen to your body. My workouts are a bit random. I decided to do a full-body day on Sunday. I did squats, dead-lifts, power cleans, and sprinkled in a couple of sets of bis in between. My body was really fatigued yesterday so I took a day off. If I would of did the same workout again yesterday I would consider that overtraining.
It's really hard to say without knowing how intense you are going. Do you have a spotter that pushes you beyond your limits. You have to introduce the muscle to stress that it's not used to.
Just my opinon. If you are giving the muscle time to heal and repair I think you could hit it pretty hard in a day. Listen to your body. My workouts are a bit random. I decided to do a full-body day on Sunday. I did squats, dead-lifts, power cleans, and sprinkled in a couple of sets of bis in between. My body was really fatigued yesterday so I took a day off. If I would of did the same workout again yesterday I would consider that overtraining.
youngbuck22
New member
I usually just stick to 1 muscle group a day, Hit the weights hard for 45mins -1 hour and cardio 20 minutes a day......
needtogetaas
New member
Very true.Tatyana said:
TBD 21
New member
Over training does not happen as easy as you think. Over training takes 2 or 3 days to happen. Hitting the same muscle groups days in the row is over training. Spending 30 mins to an hour in the gym is all up to the person, depends on your work out intensity. Don't try to measure your workout in time. Its all about how your feeling, if you feel strong throw in a couple extra sets. Now i'm not saying if you arms are not feeling close to falling off your body you need to work harder. It's getting your quality sets and reps in using good form, but pushing yourself to lift weight.
herblcure
New member
bigdofba said:
This is the interesting part..because studies show that cardio during morning before food is a great way to go and then use the day to intake calories and then workout like a freaking horse in the later part of the day..
the reason, simply (without adding all the science jargon) is that your body needs fuel to workout..I mean..to workout hard..and that fuel comes in the form of calories, fat, and protein consumed during the day.
the cardio in the morning is great because you are burning calories from yesterday basically...better results..IMO
As for overtraining..I have to agree with the post that says people simply dont train hard enough..
I mean, have you ever timed yourself..
Take the total time, less the rest time, and there you have it..time spent on a muscle. 1 hour of workout - less 1 min rest between sets...and then average about 30 - 45 seconds a set means that you are spending more time resting in one hour than working out. you want 1 hour of weights..then make sure that the hour you put in does not include rest...meaning you will need to calculate how much time you are spending actually doing the workout...and not the total time doing the workout and resting...
That is just my opinion, but if you ask me, our bodies are capable of so much more than we give them credit for...and sometimes..just sometimes..I think people use overtraining too loosely in order to justify less time in the gym.
As for the pain...I have to disagree with the post about no pain still gives growth. The idea is, you are tearing at your muscle..breaking it down..does that sound like something that should be anything but painful? the better you rip it, the more it hurts...but the better it grows...no pain..no gain..we all heard it..and yes..it does have meaning.
sure, get it, hit it hard and correctly, and get out..but dammit, if you are not ready to throw up after an intense quad workout, then it simply isn't intense.
safety4lyfe
New member
Plus 1.5! After squats i hit up some cleans and i just hate my life for about 20minutes.
.
I heard if your going for power you dont want to be too sore after wokring out....but for beach bod, soreness is the way to go. True?
bigdofba
New member
herblcure said:
This is a great post. Karma!
I agree about doing cardio in the morning. I actually workout in the afternoon and then do cardio at night. I'm not trying to lose weight or anything or I would do cardio in the morning on an empty stomach. I have done cardio in the morning and you are right, it does work better.
It's my opinion that people don't workout hard enough. Training chest 5 days in a row is my idea of overtraining, not working out really intense for an hour and a half.
Has anyone ever played sports? Try a summer workout for football. Those are long intense workouts and many people puke. The body is pushed to the limit and at the end of the summer most everyone is 10x stronger. Back in the Golden era of bodybuilding those guys would workout for hours. Push yourself!
The muscle grows by adapting to more stress than it is used to. As long as you don't train the same muscle everyday, imo, you probably won't overtrain.
Some of my best gains came years ago when a coach was in my face pushing me further than I ever knew my body could go. I don't think a lot of people know how far they can push themselves, thus their gains probably come a lot slower than they could be coming.
For example. Yesterday was my Quad, Calves, Hamstrings. After an hour in the gym, this morning was Legs do NOT hurt. You'd figure they would after 5 works sets on each and then one failure set. Guess I need to add some more intensity or time. Thanks for the info guys. BTW -- If I cut down on fat/carb intake in a day, would my body take my stored fat as energy? I just try to keep my protein up very very high for my bodyweight.
Depends on HOW you are lifting too: hyper, strength or power. If you are going way heavy, 5-8 sets of 1-4 reps, you need more rest between sets than doing 4 x 10's. Not so much an overtraining issue as it is an injury issue. If I go HEAVY, I might rest 3 minutes between sets because I'm maxing out for 3 reps. So it is less of a time issue and more of a git-R-done right issue.
jagerbombme
BANNED
interesting. i work out for about 1.5 hours ed. i am doing 1 hour cardio before breakfast. 1.5hour workout at 330pm followed by 30minutes cardio.
routine per day is
legs
chest/back
shoulders/deads
arms/forearms
core
cardioday
startover
i try to do for example on chest 15 sets of exercises, same with back, same with everything really. about 15 sets per muscle group. always trying to change it up to stay sore. i donno, anyone got input on this
routine per day is
legs
chest/back
shoulders/deads
arms/forearms
core
cardioday
startover
i try to do for example on chest 15 sets of exercises, same with back, same with everything really. about 15 sets per muscle group. always trying to change it up to stay sore. i donno, anyone got input on this
herblcure
New member
MGreen11 said:
First of all, there is no reason to workout quads and hams on the same day...
The reason? Because when you do your quads (if you do them till puke..that is about 1 more rep after failure) then you simply should not have enough left in you to do anymore. I think that we have to define the difference between working out and working out hard.
The most important thing I could stress to anyone working out hard - (and I mean fucking hard..not this shit where you can do a set and then carry on a conversation with someone, but hard to where you see stars and can't talk after your set because you are too busy sucking in air trying to get ready for the next set...) is to write everything down that you do. why?/ because it is rather pointless to do the same weight over and over again. You should chart every rep, every set, everything.
so let's say for example you are working out Quads- (and i promise that if you do this, you will not ever want to workout hams on the same day again!) and let's say that you are going to do a pyramid 12/10/8/10/12. so you start and on week 1 you do leg press and it looks something like this..
set1(12 reps) 700lbs, set2(10 reps)800lbs, set3(8 reps) 900lbs, set4(10 reps)800lbs, set5(12reps) 700lbs
First thing to point out is that you had better make sure you are struggling to actually get the weight up that many times. If it is coming too easy, increase the weight. Now, here is why you really jot this down...
You need NEED NEED to make sure that the next time you do this workout you INCREASE each weight. You see, by doing this you will ensure that you are achieving gains and not simply doing the same shit over and over. The one thing I see more than anything else in the gym is that people come in one day..do the same freaking weight they did the last time they were in the gym. Same weight, same reps..etc..and they sit there thinking that they had a good workout....but in reality..they did not push themselves harder than the last time which means they accomplished jack shit.
Look, in the end remember this..NO PAIN NO GAIN..NO PAIN NO GAIN...lift heavy but correctly..not heavy and stupid. Concentrate on isolation and good reps. I guarantee you that if you push yourself to puke level, you will hurt the next day..less than that..well, that is for the weak..
bigdofba
New member
herblcure said:
Thank you!
If your goal is to get 10 reps and you get to rep 10 without much of a struggle then you aren't lifting enough weight. It should be a struggle. Don't sacrifice form but don't sell yourself short. The last rep or two should take about everything you have.
jagerbombme
BANNED
bigdofba said:
i do do that too. on chest/back day i work upper back. shoulder day i do deadlifts
njmuscleguy
New member
I have mixed feelings about the "over-training issue" ... I've always heard that you can afford to take fewer days off while on-cycle because of faster recovery...that essentially, you can't overtrain while 'ON'.
So rather than training only 5 days per week when I'm OFF (3 days on, 1 off, 2 days on, 1 off)... I train 6 days per week when I'm ON...taking only Sunday off... yet even with 6 days, I still give myself at least 3 days off before re-training each muscle group.
The thing is, from time to time, I am forced to skip 2-3 days consecutively because of work traveling, etc... and I notice that I always GROW more that way...my body always LOOKS better after those 2-3 days off... and this is while ON...
So though mentally, I feel like I HAVE to train as much as possible, my body tells me that it's better to take the days off to rest and GROW.
My training sessions usually include two muscle groups, 1.5-2 hours... but that's mostly because our gym is tiny and gets pretty crowded...gotta wait for benches, weights, and machines.
Just food for thought
So rather than training only 5 days per week when I'm OFF (3 days on, 1 off, 2 days on, 1 off)... I train 6 days per week when I'm ON...taking only Sunday off... yet even with 6 days, I still give myself at least 3 days off before re-training each muscle group.
The thing is, from time to time, I am forced to skip 2-3 days consecutively because of work traveling, etc... and I notice that I always GROW more that way...my body always LOOKS better after those 2-3 days off... and this is while ON...
So though mentally, I feel like I HAVE to train as much as possible, my body tells me that it's better to take the days off to rest and GROW.
My training sessions usually include two muscle groups, 1.5-2 hours... but that's mostly because our gym is tiny and gets pretty crowded...gotta wait for benches, weights, and machines.
Just food for thought
LifttoLive
New member
herblcure said:
NO PAIN NO GAIN..NO PAIN NO GAIN
So true, So true... I wonder if some of you have phd's in weightlifting.
njmuscleguy
New member
I've read that biceps, for example, are easily "overtrained"... limit to around 9 sets...lower weight, higher reps.... shouldn't take longer than 30minutes total
LMOB121212
New member
njmuscleguy said:
+1
b_light
New member
Listen to your body, if you are run down then take it easy or take the day off, if you have been in the game long enough you should know the diff. between "good" pain and "bad" pain. Best thing i learned is that you don't need to stick to a strict workout, things change from day to day and you need to adapt to it. If you force your body to do something it can't/doesn't want to do you will get injured or make your self more beat up and take longer to recover.
footballstud
New member
timtim said:
Where is this 'new research'?
A
ALIN
Guest
MGreen11 said:
I think you only need about 60min max to train,, 4 x per wk,,,I NEVER do cardio on the same day I weight train.
footballstud said:
all over. ive seen a few articles on a competing site. read a round table of nutrition gurus who said the same on another. i didnt save any to my hard drive. ill try and see if i can get them and past them over.
not sure if you were trying to be condescending with the tone but i remember when the "truth" was creatine could only be taken with grape juice. how far from the truth was that? there has never been proof of a.m. fasted cardio burning more fat than fed p.m. cardio. its a loose theory just like seperate carbs and fats. things are a ton more complicated than that. just because everyone thinks it works doesnt mean it does.
check post 13, im not the only one who has read this:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/diet-bodybuilding/fast-absorbing-carbs-morning-584778-2.html
Last edited:
found this which is way old, 2001, and even here the validity of am fasted cardio is questioned (still supported) and this is 7 years old - its been in question forever and there is new research out. i'll try and find the recent ones. im having trouble with the search engines but will keep looking.
A.M. Fat Burn
Author: Tom Venuto
Date: Aug 01, 2001
Even though morning cardio has been embraced by bodybuilders as a "tried and true" fat loss technique, there is definitely not a unanimous agreement about its effectiveness, especially in the scientific community. Most competitive bodybuilders are die-hard advocates of doing cardio first thing in the morning before eating their first meal. They believe it will cause them to mobilize more stored body fat and increase their metabolic rate all day long. There’s quite a bit of scientific literature supporting the a.m. fasted cardio theory, but generally, the exercise physiologists and scientists tend not to buy it. They subscribe to the energy balance hypothesis, which states; as long as you burn more calories than you consume in each 24 hour period, then the time of day you burn them doesn’t matter, nor does whether you burn them from fat or carbohydrate.
If you have even the most rudimentary understanding of human physiology and physics, you have to concede that the timing of your cardio is not the most important factor in fat loss. When you do your cardio won’t make or break you. Simply doing it whenever it’s convenient and following a mildly calorie restricted diet is what’s important. However, there’s a very strong case for doing fasted a.m. cardio and if you want to gain every legal and ethical advantage possible in your quest to get leaner then it’s definitely something you should take a closer look at.
The argument in favor of fasted early morning cardio goes something like this:
1. When you wake up in the morning after an overnight 8-12 hour fast, your body’s stores of glycogen are somewhat ***leted. Doing cardio in this state causes your body to mobilize more fat because of the unavailability of glycogen.
2. Eating causes a release of insulin. Insulin interferes with the mobilization of body fat. Less insulin is present in the morning; therefore, more body fat is burned when cardio is done in the morning.
3. There is less carbohydrate (glucose) "floating around" in the bloodstream when you wake up after an overnight fast. With less glucose available, you will burn more fat.
4. If you eat immediately before a workout, you have to burn off what you just ate first before tapping into stored body fat (and insulin is elevated after a meal.)
5. When you do cardio in the morning, your metabolism stays elevated for a period of time after the workout is over. If you do cardio in the evening, you burn calories during the session so you definitely benefit from it, but you fail to take advantage of the "afterburn" effect because your metabolic rate drops dramatically as soon as you go to sleep.
Research supports this theory. A study performed at Kansas State University and published in Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise showed that a kilogram of fat is burned sooner when exercise is done in the fasted state in the morning than when it’s done later in the day. The researchers measured respiratory gas exchange, caloric expenditure and carbohydrate and fatty acid metabolism, and found that the amount of fat burned during aerobic exercise amounted to 67% of the total energy expenditure in the morning after a 12 hour fast. This is substantially higher than the 50% expenditure achieved when the same exercise was done later in the day or after eating. A similar study from The Journal of Applied Physiology looked at the effects of aerobic exercise on lipid oxidation in fed versus fasted states. The researchers concluded, "our results support the hypothesis that endurance training enhances lipid oxidation in men after a 12 hour overnight fast." Yet another scientific paper, Optimizing Exercise for Fat Loss," reports, "The ability of exercise to selectively promote fat oxidation should be optimized if exercise is done during morning fasted metabolism."
Despite the fact that increased fat burning from morning aerobics seems logical and is backed by research, the majority of scientists and exercise physiologists vehemently deny its effectiveness. They are quick to point out that you can find a study to support almost any theory you want to advocate. Interestingly though, even the most dyed in the wool academics agree that you’ll burn more fat in the fuel mix as compared to sugars. The real controversy lies in whether this fact has any impact on overall fat loss in the long run.
Exercise Physiologist Greg Landry, MS, author of "The Metabolism System for Weight Loss and Fitness," explains, "I agree that you burn a fuel mix that is a little higher in fat if you’re exercising on an empty stomach. However, I think the real question is, does that matter? I believe we have a ‘pool’ of calories stored in different forms in the body (fat, glycogen, etc.), so ‘burned’ calories all come from the same pool. Thus, it really doesn’t matter that the fuel mix has a little more fat in it at a given time. If it’s pulling from fat stores at that time, then it’s pulling less from glycogen stores and thus future consumed calories will be a little more likely to be stored as fat because glycogen stores are a little fuller. So it’s all a wash."
Lyle McDonald, an expert on bodybuilding nutrition and author of "The Ketogenic Diet," agrees. He argues that the body will compensate later in the day and is simply "too smart" for strategies like this to ever work: "All that research says is that you burn a greater proportion of fat this way, which I agree with 100%," says Lyle. "The majority of research shows that as far as real world fat loss goes, it doesn’t really matter what you burn. Rather, 24-hour calorie balance is what matters. Because if you burn glucose during exercise, you tend to burn more fat the rest of the day. If you burn fat during exercise, you burn more glucose during the day. The end result is identical. If that weren’t the case, then athletes like sprinters who never ‘burn fat’ during exercise wouldn’t be shredded. Basically, they burn so many calories that they remain in balance and don’t gain any fat. So, while morning cardio probably provides some psychological benefits to bodybuilders who are programmed to do it that way, I can’t say that I think it will result in greater ‘real world’ fat loss, which is what matters."
When it comes to "real world" fat loss, few people have more experience than Chris Aceto. A successful bodybuilder and nutritionist to some of the top pro bodybuilders in the world, Aceto is a firm believer in morning cardio. He unequivocally states, "The fastest way to tap stored body fat is to do cardio first thing in the morning on an empty stomach."
Aceto believes that looking at calories only in terms of energy in vs. energy out is "limited thinking." He asserts that there are more factors involved in "real world" results than just energy balance. This all comes back to the old argument, are all calories created equal? "Absolutely not!" Aceto declares. "A calorie is not just a calorie and exercise physiologists ‘freak out’ when they hear this."
"These guys are working from the assumption that it’s just a matter of calories in vs. calories out, period," Chris continued. "With that line of reasoning, they’d be forced to say that if I consume nothing but candy bars and Coca-Cola, and take in 100 calories less than maintenance, I’d lose weight. We know it’s not that simple. You also have to account for ratios of carbs, protein, and fat. Then there’s meal frequency too: From real world results we know you put down more muscle mass from 5 or 6 meals a day than from 3 meals a day. There are more things involved than just calories."
Whether or not morning cardio in the fasted state increases "real world" fat loss is still the subject of controversy, but there are many other reasons you might want to consider making it a part of your daily routine. Landry, despite his doubts about whether the fuel source matters, admits, "If I had to pick a single factor I thought was most important in a successful weight loss program, it would have to be to exercise first thing in the morning."
Here are some of the additional benefits of doing cardio early in the morning:
1.It makes you feel great all day by releasing mood-enhancing endorphins.
2. It "energizes" you and "wakes you up."
3. It may help regulate your appetite for the rest of the day.
4. Your body’s circadian rhythm adjusts to your morning routine, making it easier to wake up at the same time every day.
5. You’ll be less likely to "blow off" your workout when it’s out of the way early (like when you’re exhausted after work or when friends ask you to join them at the pub for happy hour).
6. You can always "make time" for exercise by setting your alarm earlier in the morning.
7. It increases your metabolic rate for hours after the session is over.
Of all these benefits, the post-exercise increase in your metabolic rate is one of the most talked about. Scientists call this "afterburn" effect the "excess post-exercise oxygen consumption" or EPOC for short.
Looking only at the number of calories and the type of calories burned during the session doesn’t give you the full picture. You also need to look at the increased number of calories you continue to burn after the workout is over. That’s right - work out in the morning and you burn calories all day long. Imagine burning extra fat as you sit at your desk at work! That’s the good news. The bad news is, the degree of EPOC is not as great as most people think. It’s a myth that your metabolism stays elevated for 24 hours after a regular aerobic workout. That only happens after extremely intense and/or prolonged exercise such as running a marathon.
After low intensity exercise, the magnitude of the EPOC is so small that its impact on fat loss is negligible. Somewhere between 9 and 30 extra calories are burned after exercise at an intensity of less than 60-65% of maximal heart rate. In other words, a casual stroll on the treadmill will do next to nothing to increase your metabolism.
However, EPOC does increase with the intensity (and duration) of the exercise. According to Wilmore and Costill in "Physiology of Sport and Exercise," the EPOC after moderate exercise (75-80%) will amount to approximately .25 kcal/min or 15 kcal/hour. This would provide an additional expenditure of 75 kcal that would not normally be calculated in the total energy expended for that activity. An extra 75 calories is definitely nothing Earth shattering. However, it does add up over time. In a year that would mean (in theory) you would burn an extra 5.2 lbs of fat from the additional calories expended after the workout.
One way to get a significant post exercise "afterburn" is high intensity interval training (HIIT). HIIT is done by alternating brief periods of high intensity work (85% or more) with brief periods of lower intensity work. Studies on the effects of HIIT have demonstrated a much higher EPOC, which can add substantially to the day’s calorie expenditure. In one study, scientists from the University of Alabama compared the effects of two exercise protocols on 24-hour energy expenditure. The first group cycled for 60 minutes at a moderate intensity. The second group performed HIIT, cycling for two minutes at high intensity followed by two minutes at a low intensity. The group that performed the HIIT burned 160 more calories in 24 hours than the low intensity group. That means the HIIT group would burn an extra 11.8 pounds of fat in one year if they did HIIT five days a week instead of conventional training.
Ironically, weight training has a much higher magnitude of EPOC than aerobic training. Studies have shown increases in metabolic rate of as much as 4-7% over a 24-hour period from resistance training. Yes - that means bodybuilding does burn fat – albeit through an indirect mechanism. For someone with an expenditure of 2500 calories per day, that could add up to 100 - 175 extra calories burned after your weight training workout is over. The lesson is simple: Anyone interested in losing body fat who is not lifting weights should first take up a regimen of bodybuilding, then – and only then – start thinking about the morning cardio!
A common concern about doing cardio in the fasted state, especially if it’s done with high intensity, is the possibility of losing muscle. After an overnight fast, glycogen, blood glucose and insulin are all low. As we’ve already concluded, this is an optimum environment for burning fat. Unfortunately, it may also be an optimum environment for burning muscle because carbohydrate fuel sources are low and levels of the catabolic stress hormone cortisol are high. It sounds like morning cardio might be a double-edged sword, but there are ways to avert muscle loss.
All aerobic exercise will have some effect on building muscle, but as long as you don’t overdo it, you shouldn’t worry about losing muscle. It's a fact that muscle proteins are broken down and used for energy during aerobic exercise. But you are constantly breaking down and re-building muscle tissue anyway. This process is called "protein turnover" and it’s a daily fact of life. Your goal is to tip the scales slightly in favor of increasing the anabolic side and reducing the catabolic side just enough so you stay anabolic and you gain or at least maintain muscle.
How do you build up more muscle than you break down? First, avoid excessive cardio. Aceto suggests limiting your cardio on an empty stomach to 30 minutes, and then it would be "highly unlikely that amino acids will be burned as fuel." He also mentions that "a strong cup of coffee should facilitate a shifting to burn more fat and less glycogen. If you can spare glycogen, you’ll ultimately spare protein too." You might also want to consider experimenting with the thermogenic ephedrine-caffeine-aspirin stack (or it’s herbal equivalent).
Second, give your body the proper nutritional support. Losing muscle probably has more to do with inadequate nutrition than with excessive aerobics. Provide yourself with the proper nutritional support for the rest of the day, including adequate meal frequency, protein, carbohydrates and total calories, and it’s not as likely that there will be a net loss of muscle tissue over each 24-hour period.
Third, keep training with heavy weights, even during a fat loss phase. Using light weights and higher reps thinking that it will help you get more "cut" is a mistake: What put the muscle on in the first place is likely to help you keep it there.
Still petrified of losing your hard-earned muscle, but you’d like to take advantage of the fat-burning and metabolism-boosting effects of morning cardio? One strategy many bodybuilders use is to drink a protein shake or eat a protein only meal 30-60 minutes prior to the morning session. The protein without the carbs will minimize the insulin response and allow you to mobilize fat while providing amino acids to prevent muscle breakdown.
In conclusion, it seems that morning cardio has enough indisputable benefits to motivate most people to set their alarms early. But let’s talk bottom line results here: Does it really result in more "real world fat loss" than aerobics performed at other times of the day or after eating? I have to believe it does. Experience, common sense and research all tell me so. Nevertheless, this will obviously continue to be an area of much debate, and clearly, more research is needed. In the meantime, while the scientists are busy in their labs measuring respiratory exchange ratios, caloric expenditures and rates of substrate utilization, I’m going to keep waking up at 6:00 AM every morning to get on my Stairmaster.
References
1. Aceto, Chris. Everything you need to know about fat loss. Club Creavalle, Inc. (1997).
2. Bahr, R. Excess post-exercise oxygen consumption – Magnitude, Mechanisms and Practical Implications. Acta Physiol Scand. Suppl. (1992) 605. 1-70.
3. Bergman, BC, Brooks, GA. Respiratory gas-exchange ratios during graded exercise in fed and fasted trained and untrained men. Journal of Applied Physiology. (1999) 86: 2.
4. Brehm, B.A., and Gutin, B. Recovery energy expenditure for steady state exercise in runners and non-exercisers. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise. (1986) 18: 205,
5. Brybner, BW. The effects of exercise intensity on body composition, weight loss, and dietary composition in women. Journal of American College of Nutrition, (1997) 16: 68-73
6. Landry, Greg. The Metabolism System for Weight Loss. Greg Landry. (2000).
7. Maehlum, S., etc al. Magnitude and duration of post exercise oxygen consumption in healthy young subjects. Metabolism (1986) 35 (5): 425-429.
8. McCarty, MF. Optimizing Exercise for Fat Loss. Medical Hypothesis. (1995) 44: 325-330
9. McDonald, Lyle. The Ketogenic Diet. Morris Publishing, (1998).
10. Melby, C. et al. Effect of acute resistance exercise on post exercise energy expenditure and resting metabolic rate. J Applied Physiology, (1993). 75: 1847-1853
11. Wilmore, Jack, Costill, David. Physiology of Sport and Exercise. (1999) 2nd ed. Human Kinetics
12. Tremblay, A, et al, Impact of exercise intensity on body fatness and skeletal muscle metabolism. Metabolism (1994) 43: 818-818
13. Treuth, M.S., Hunter, G.R., & Williams, M. Effects of exercise intensity on 24-h energy expenditure and substrate oxidation. Medicine and Science in Sports & Exercise. (1996) 28, 1138-1143
14.Wilcox, Harford & Wedel. Medicine and Science in Sports & Exercise, (1985) 17:2
A.M. Fat Burn
Author: Tom Venuto
Date: Aug 01, 2001
Even though morning cardio has been embraced by bodybuilders as a "tried and true" fat loss technique, there is definitely not a unanimous agreement about its effectiveness, especially in the scientific community. Most competitive bodybuilders are die-hard advocates of doing cardio first thing in the morning before eating their first meal. They believe it will cause them to mobilize more stored body fat and increase their metabolic rate all day long. There’s quite a bit of scientific literature supporting the a.m. fasted cardio theory, but generally, the exercise physiologists and scientists tend not to buy it. They subscribe to the energy balance hypothesis, which states; as long as you burn more calories than you consume in each 24 hour period, then the time of day you burn them doesn’t matter, nor does whether you burn them from fat or carbohydrate.
If you have even the most rudimentary understanding of human physiology and physics, you have to concede that the timing of your cardio is not the most important factor in fat loss. When you do your cardio won’t make or break you. Simply doing it whenever it’s convenient and following a mildly calorie restricted diet is what’s important. However, there’s a very strong case for doing fasted a.m. cardio and if you want to gain every legal and ethical advantage possible in your quest to get leaner then it’s definitely something you should take a closer look at.
The argument in favor of fasted early morning cardio goes something like this:
1. When you wake up in the morning after an overnight 8-12 hour fast, your body’s stores of glycogen are somewhat ***leted. Doing cardio in this state causes your body to mobilize more fat because of the unavailability of glycogen.
2. Eating causes a release of insulin. Insulin interferes with the mobilization of body fat. Less insulin is present in the morning; therefore, more body fat is burned when cardio is done in the morning.
3. There is less carbohydrate (glucose) "floating around" in the bloodstream when you wake up after an overnight fast. With less glucose available, you will burn more fat.
4. If you eat immediately before a workout, you have to burn off what you just ate first before tapping into stored body fat (and insulin is elevated after a meal.)
5. When you do cardio in the morning, your metabolism stays elevated for a period of time after the workout is over. If you do cardio in the evening, you burn calories during the session so you definitely benefit from it, but you fail to take advantage of the "afterburn" effect because your metabolic rate drops dramatically as soon as you go to sleep.
Research supports this theory. A study performed at Kansas State University and published in Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise showed that a kilogram of fat is burned sooner when exercise is done in the fasted state in the morning than when it’s done later in the day. The researchers measured respiratory gas exchange, caloric expenditure and carbohydrate and fatty acid metabolism, and found that the amount of fat burned during aerobic exercise amounted to 67% of the total energy expenditure in the morning after a 12 hour fast. This is substantially higher than the 50% expenditure achieved when the same exercise was done later in the day or after eating. A similar study from The Journal of Applied Physiology looked at the effects of aerobic exercise on lipid oxidation in fed versus fasted states. The researchers concluded, "our results support the hypothesis that endurance training enhances lipid oxidation in men after a 12 hour overnight fast." Yet another scientific paper, Optimizing Exercise for Fat Loss," reports, "The ability of exercise to selectively promote fat oxidation should be optimized if exercise is done during morning fasted metabolism."
Despite the fact that increased fat burning from morning aerobics seems logical and is backed by research, the majority of scientists and exercise physiologists vehemently deny its effectiveness. They are quick to point out that you can find a study to support almost any theory you want to advocate. Interestingly though, even the most dyed in the wool academics agree that you’ll burn more fat in the fuel mix as compared to sugars. The real controversy lies in whether this fact has any impact on overall fat loss in the long run.
Exercise Physiologist Greg Landry, MS, author of "The Metabolism System for Weight Loss and Fitness," explains, "I agree that you burn a fuel mix that is a little higher in fat if you’re exercising on an empty stomach. However, I think the real question is, does that matter? I believe we have a ‘pool’ of calories stored in different forms in the body (fat, glycogen, etc.), so ‘burned’ calories all come from the same pool. Thus, it really doesn’t matter that the fuel mix has a little more fat in it at a given time. If it’s pulling from fat stores at that time, then it’s pulling less from glycogen stores and thus future consumed calories will be a little more likely to be stored as fat because glycogen stores are a little fuller. So it’s all a wash."
Lyle McDonald, an expert on bodybuilding nutrition and author of "The Ketogenic Diet," agrees. He argues that the body will compensate later in the day and is simply "too smart" for strategies like this to ever work: "All that research says is that you burn a greater proportion of fat this way, which I agree with 100%," says Lyle. "The majority of research shows that as far as real world fat loss goes, it doesn’t really matter what you burn. Rather, 24-hour calorie balance is what matters. Because if you burn glucose during exercise, you tend to burn more fat the rest of the day. If you burn fat during exercise, you burn more glucose during the day. The end result is identical. If that weren’t the case, then athletes like sprinters who never ‘burn fat’ during exercise wouldn’t be shredded. Basically, they burn so many calories that they remain in balance and don’t gain any fat. So, while morning cardio probably provides some psychological benefits to bodybuilders who are programmed to do it that way, I can’t say that I think it will result in greater ‘real world’ fat loss, which is what matters."
When it comes to "real world" fat loss, few people have more experience than Chris Aceto. A successful bodybuilder and nutritionist to some of the top pro bodybuilders in the world, Aceto is a firm believer in morning cardio. He unequivocally states, "The fastest way to tap stored body fat is to do cardio first thing in the morning on an empty stomach."
Aceto believes that looking at calories only in terms of energy in vs. energy out is "limited thinking." He asserts that there are more factors involved in "real world" results than just energy balance. This all comes back to the old argument, are all calories created equal? "Absolutely not!" Aceto declares. "A calorie is not just a calorie and exercise physiologists ‘freak out’ when they hear this."
"These guys are working from the assumption that it’s just a matter of calories in vs. calories out, period," Chris continued. "With that line of reasoning, they’d be forced to say that if I consume nothing but candy bars and Coca-Cola, and take in 100 calories less than maintenance, I’d lose weight. We know it’s not that simple. You also have to account for ratios of carbs, protein, and fat. Then there’s meal frequency too: From real world results we know you put down more muscle mass from 5 or 6 meals a day than from 3 meals a day. There are more things involved than just calories."
Whether or not morning cardio in the fasted state increases "real world" fat loss is still the subject of controversy, but there are many other reasons you might want to consider making it a part of your daily routine. Landry, despite his doubts about whether the fuel source matters, admits, "If I had to pick a single factor I thought was most important in a successful weight loss program, it would have to be to exercise first thing in the morning."
Here are some of the additional benefits of doing cardio early in the morning:
1.It makes you feel great all day by releasing mood-enhancing endorphins.
2. It "energizes" you and "wakes you up."
3. It may help regulate your appetite for the rest of the day.
4. Your body’s circadian rhythm adjusts to your morning routine, making it easier to wake up at the same time every day.
5. You’ll be less likely to "blow off" your workout when it’s out of the way early (like when you’re exhausted after work or when friends ask you to join them at the pub for happy hour).
6. You can always "make time" for exercise by setting your alarm earlier in the morning.
7. It increases your metabolic rate for hours after the session is over.
Of all these benefits, the post-exercise increase in your metabolic rate is one of the most talked about. Scientists call this "afterburn" effect the "excess post-exercise oxygen consumption" or EPOC for short.
Looking only at the number of calories and the type of calories burned during the session doesn’t give you the full picture. You also need to look at the increased number of calories you continue to burn after the workout is over. That’s right - work out in the morning and you burn calories all day long. Imagine burning extra fat as you sit at your desk at work! That’s the good news. The bad news is, the degree of EPOC is not as great as most people think. It’s a myth that your metabolism stays elevated for 24 hours after a regular aerobic workout. That only happens after extremely intense and/or prolonged exercise such as running a marathon.
After low intensity exercise, the magnitude of the EPOC is so small that its impact on fat loss is negligible. Somewhere between 9 and 30 extra calories are burned after exercise at an intensity of less than 60-65% of maximal heart rate. In other words, a casual stroll on the treadmill will do next to nothing to increase your metabolism.
However, EPOC does increase with the intensity (and duration) of the exercise. According to Wilmore and Costill in "Physiology of Sport and Exercise," the EPOC after moderate exercise (75-80%) will amount to approximately .25 kcal/min or 15 kcal/hour. This would provide an additional expenditure of 75 kcal that would not normally be calculated in the total energy expended for that activity. An extra 75 calories is definitely nothing Earth shattering. However, it does add up over time. In a year that would mean (in theory) you would burn an extra 5.2 lbs of fat from the additional calories expended after the workout.
One way to get a significant post exercise "afterburn" is high intensity interval training (HIIT). HIIT is done by alternating brief periods of high intensity work (85% or more) with brief periods of lower intensity work. Studies on the effects of HIIT have demonstrated a much higher EPOC, which can add substantially to the day’s calorie expenditure. In one study, scientists from the University of Alabama compared the effects of two exercise protocols on 24-hour energy expenditure. The first group cycled for 60 minutes at a moderate intensity. The second group performed HIIT, cycling for two minutes at high intensity followed by two minutes at a low intensity. The group that performed the HIIT burned 160 more calories in 24 hours than the low intensity group. That means the HIIT group would burn an extra 11.8 pounds of fat in one year if they did HIIT five days a week instead of conventional training.
Ironically, weight training has a much higher magnitude of EPOC than aerobic training. Studies have shown increases in metabolic rate of as much as 4-7% over a 24-hour period from resistance training. Yes - that means bodybuilding does burn fat – albeit through an indirect mechanism. For someone with an expenditure of 2500 calories per day, that could add up to 100 - 175 extra calories burned after your weight training workout is over. The lesson is simple: Anyone interested in losing body fat who is not lifting weights should first take up a regimen of bodybuilding, then – and only then – start thinking about the morning cardio!
A common concern about doing cardio in the fasted state, especially if it’s done with high intensity, is the possibility of losing muscle. After an overnight fast, glycogen, blood glucose and insulin are all low. As we’ve already concluded, this is an optimum environment for burning fat. Unfortunately, it may also be an optimum environment for burning muscle because carbohydrate fuel sources are low and levels of the catabolic stress hormone cortisol are high. It sounds like morning cardio might be a double-edged sword, but there are ways to avert muscle loss.
All aerobic exercise will have some effect on building muscle, but as long as you don’t overdo it, you shouldn’t worry about losing muscle. It's a fact that muscle proteins are broken down and used for energy during aerobic exercise. But you are constantly breaking down and re-building muscle tissue anyway. This process is called "protein turnover" and it’s a daily fact of life. Your goal is to tip the scales slightly in favor of increasing the anabolic side and reducing the catabolic side just enough so you stay anabolic and you gain or at least maintain muscle.
How do you build up more muscle than you break down? First, avoid excessive cardio. Aceto suggests limiting your cardio on an empty stomach to 30 minutes, and then it would be "highly unlikely that amino acids will be burned as fuel." He also mentions that "a strong cup of coffee should facilitate a shifting to burn more fat and less glycogen. If you can spare glycogen, you’ll ultimately spare protein too." You might also want to consider experimenting with the thermogenic ephedrine-caffeine-aspirin stack (or it’s herbal equivalent).
Second, give your body the proper nutritional support. Losing muscle probably has more to do with inadequate nutrition than with excessive aerobics. Provide yourself with the proper nutritional support for the rest of the day, including adequate meal frequency, protein, carbohydrates and total calories, and it’s not as likely that there will be a net loss of muscle tissue over each 24-hour period.
Third, keep training with heavy weights, even during a fat loss phase. Using light weights and higher reps thinking that it will help you get more "cut" is a mistake: What put the muscle on in the first place is likely to help you keep it there.
Still petrified of losing your hard-earned muscle, but you’d like to take advantage of the fat-burning and metabolism-boosting effects of morning cardio? One strategy many bodybuilders use is to drink a protein shake or eat a protein only meal 30-60 minutes prior to the morning session. The protein without the carbs will minimize the insulin response and allow you to mobilize fat while providing amino acids to prevent muscle breakdown.
In conclusion, it seems that morning cardio has enough indisputable benefits to motivate most people to set their alarms early. But let’s talk bottom line results here: Does it really result in more "real world fat loss" than aerobics performed at other times of the day or after eating? I have to believe it does. Experience, common sense and research all tell me so. Nevertheless, this will obviously continue to be an area of much debate, and clearly, more research is needed. In the meantime, while the scientists are busy in their labs measuring respiratory exchange ratios, caloric expenditures and rates of substrate utilization, I’m going to keep waking up at 6:00 AM every morning to get on my Stairmaster.
References
1. Aceto, Chris. Everything you need to know about fat loss. Club Creavalle, Inc. (1997).
2. Bahr, R. Excess post-exercise oxygen consumption – Magnitude, Mechanisms and Practical Implications. Acta Physiol Scand. Suppl. (1992) 605. 1-70.
3. Bergman, BC, Brooks, GA. Respiratory gas-exchange ratios during graded exercise in fed and fasted trained and untrained men. Journal of Applied Physiology. (1999) 86: 2.
4. Brehm, B.A., and Gutin, B. Recovery energy expenditure for steady state exercise in runners and non-exercisers. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise. (1986) 18: 205,
5. Brybner, BW. The effects of exercise intensity on body composition, weight loss, and dietary composition in women. Journal of American College of Nutrition, (1997) 16: 68-73
6. Landry, Greg. The Metabolism System for Weight Loss. Greg Landry. (2000).
7. Maehlum, S., etc al. Magnitude and duration of post exercise oxygen consumption in healthy young subjects. Metabolism (1986) 35 (5): 425-429.
8. McCarty, MF. Optimizing Exercise for Fat Loss. Medical Hypothesis. (1995) 44: 325-330
9. McDonald, Lyle. The Ketogenic Diet. Morris Publishing, (1998).
10. Melby, C. et al. Effect of acute resistance exercise on post exercise energy expenditure and resting metabolic rate. J Applied Physiology, (1993). 75: 1847-1853
11. Wilmore, Jack, Costill, David. Physiology of Sport and Exercise. (1999) 2nd ed. Human Kinetics
12. Tremblay, A, et al, Impact of exercise intensity on body fatness and skeletal muscle metabolism. Metabolism (1994) 43: 818-818
13. Treuth, M.S., Hunter, G.R., & Williams, M. Effects of exercise intensity on 24-h energy expenditure and substrate oxidation. Medicine and Science in Sports & Exercise. (1996) 28, 1138-1143
14.Wilcox, Harford & Wedel. Medicine and Science in Sports & Exercise, (1985) 17:2
herblcure
New member
ok, I dont know about the rest of you, but that is way too much shit to read. ;-)
In either case, I think we can all agree on one thing - listening to your body is the most critical...if your body tells you to chill..then chill..however, make sure you have a good signal (cell phone talk now) between your body and your brain so that you are not misunderstanding what your body is really saying. some people will feel tired and simply say "my body needs a break". well, it could be the case but dont be so quick to come to that conclusion. perhaps your body is tired because you fed it the wrong fuel earlier.
other than that, remeber that muscle needs to tear and rebuild. TEAR!!! TEAR!!! that is the key..rip the shit out of your muscle..on that last rep where you think "oh shit, charlie horse charlie horse..cramp cramp.." yup...keep going..rip it to shreds..and then..let the fibers have enough time to rebuild..AHH the joy of lifting..so graphic but worth every single pain, pull, and charlie horse!!!
In either case, I think we can all agree on one thing - listening to your body is the most critical...if your body tells you to chill..then chill..however, make sure you have a good signal (cell phone talk now) between your body and your brain so that you are not misunderstanding what your body is really saying. some people will feel tired and simply say "my body needs a break". well, it could be the case but dont be so quick to come to that conclusion. perhaps your body is tired because you fed it the wrong fuel earlier.
other than that, remeber that muscle needs to tear and rebuild. TEAR!!! TEAR!!! that is the key..rip the shit out of your muscle..on that last rep where you think "oh shit, charlie horse charlie horse..cramp cramp.." yup...keep going..rip it to shreds..and then..let the fibers have enough time to rebuild..AHH the joy of lifting..so graphic but worth every single pain, pull, and charlie horse!!!
Big bump to bigdofba and herblcure on this one. Is this really a thread about "overtraining", while on? If you are a healthy, athletic person with a good diet, and you are on gear it should be almost impossible to overtrain. Every minute I'm not training while on feels like wasted time. If you don't want to throw weight around all day and feel that pump either you're not on enough stack or you're not healthy enough to be taking it.
Do you really expect your body to adapt and grow stronger if you are not even willing to train it hard enough to make you sore? C'mon.
I also agree with the AM/PM workout split. I had my best gains from doing cardio and circuit training in the AM for about 1-2 hours and my heavy lifting at night for about 1-1.5 hours, 6 days/week. Not only do you get to shred tons of fat in the morning without all kinds of food sloshing around, you also get rid of morning stiffness and get well stretched and moving in the morning. You can then load up on all kinds of food, supplements during the day to fuel your epic night lifts. You can then, go home, pound a joint, a shake, and a steak and pass out, and instantly start rebuilding. You would be amazed how good you feel when you wake up. The instant fuel and sleep is great for anabolism. Shed the excess cals the next morning and continue the cycle. It's hard, takes discipline and work and time, but it pays huge. Plus, you avoid injury by doing heavy lifts after full day of limbering up, big hidden benefit.
The guy referencing sports had it right. High school athletes train 3 hrs a day or more for a sport, you're grown and on gear and aren't willing to train an hour. You are not getting the best of the risk/reward of steroids.
All I'm saying is, if you are gonna take the health risks its better to do the work and be many times stronger and healthier than dick around a be a little stronger with bitch tits.
Eat big to get big!
Lift big to get big!
No pain, no gain! there cliches cuz their true!
I disagree with herbal on the "tear, tear, tear" thing, though. If you tear the muscle to much scar tissue will form which is basically garbage tissue. You want to work until failure with some minor tearing. P.S. the hard cardio in the am also gives you super high RBC production, too, fyi.
Do you really expect your body to adapt and grow stronger if you are not even willing to train it hard enough to make you sore? C'mon.
I also agree with the AM/PM workout split. I had my best gains from doing cardio and circuit training in the AM for about 1-2 hours and my heavy lifting at night for about 1-1.5 hours, 6 days/week. Not only do you get to shred tons of fat in the morning without all kinds of food sloshing around, you also get rid of morning stiffness and get well stretched and moving in the morning. You can then load up on all kinds of food, supplements during the day to fuel your epic night lifts. You can then, go home, pound a joint, a shake, and a steak and pass out, and instantly start rebuilding. You would be amazed how good you feel when you wake up. The instant fuel and sleep is great for anabolism. Shed the excess cals the next morning and continue the cycle. It's hard, takes discipline and work and time, but it pays huge. Plus, you avoid injury by doing heavy lifts after full day of limbering up, big hidden benefit.
The guy referencing sports had it right. High school athletes train 3 hrs a day or more for a sport, you're grown and on gear and aren't willing to train an hour. You are not getting the best of the risk/reward of steroids.
All I'm saying is, if you are gonna take the health risks its better to do the work and be many times stronger and healthier than dick around a be a little stronger with bitch tits.
Eat big to get big!
Lift big to get big!
No pain, no gain! there cliches cuz their true!
I disagree with herbal on the "tear, tear, tear" thing, though. If you tear the muscle to much scar tissue will form which is basically garbage tissue. You want to work until failure with some minor tearing. P.S. the hard cardio in the am also gives you super high RBC production, too, fyi.
R
RachelEFC
Guest
b_light said:
definately love the fact that you said "listen to your body"... it's hard to put a time on it. I ended up with a broken hip last year from "overtraining", though docs couldn't specifically tell me what I did. There's soreness, and there's a "not right" feeling. I hardly ever get sore anymore and have seen great improvements with strength... you figure out what your body likes and doesn't like
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