Oral AAS before a workout.

[Andy13]

So I guess there are a lot of guys that think that oral AAS are good to take right before a workout, huh?

Well, think of it like this..

Dbol has what? 6hr? 4hr half life? Anyway, if you could attach a "dbol-cam" to a dbol molecule to see where it goes, you would see it go through the gut etc etc until it gets into the blood.. It will float around (some on binding proteins, but that's not the point). It will go into and out of cells causing nothing until it goes into a cell and finds and binds an androgen receptor (AR) located in the nulceus of the cell... This hormone/receptor complex then lands on the DNA and causes RNA's to be made.. Then the RNAs are read, and the corisponding proteins are made.. The type of proteins that are made will differ from cell to cell.. But we are talking about muscle cells here... The types of proteins made are "make-me-bigger" proteins..

Back to our Dbol molecule.. Once the hormone/receptor complex steps off the DNA, the dbol molecule is released.. It then goes floating about, in and out of cells.. Maybe binding more AR's, maybe not. So after a few hours, you limp into the gym locker-room after one of your semi-annual leg workouts. You close the stall door in the gym bathroom, look at the toilet and groan about having to do one more squat...

Anyway-- The dbol molecule is gone.. But guess what? The EFFECTS it causes (remember the make-me-bigger proteins it caused the synthesis of in the muscle cell?) Well they are still there.. Doing whatever job they are supposed to do.. These make-me-bigger proteins will eventually be degraded, but this is long after the dbol molecule has done it's business in the cell and left.

Now-- about the workout.. In a process not well understood, all those squats you did will cause some muscle growth... But this is a long, LONG process.. Let's put it this way; when you workout, you are not GROWING during that time... You GROW when you are at rest-- for DAYS after your workout.. And it is a continuous process! (I hope I'm starting to make my point here..)

So-- Since you grow 24hrs a day, it makes sence to take dbol 24hrs a day.. Split up your orals as much as you want (or find convenient).. But realize that orals taken around the clock are tremendously more effective that when taken only once or twice a day (Bill Roberts).

As for dbol for bridging. ..
I bring this up because there has been some discussion on it as of late....

According to Bill Roberts, a realitively large amount of Dbol can be taken in one day, so long as it is done by noon, with little effect on natural testosterone suppression. The only real problem with that is..... you guessed it...... Gains won't be all that great either.... (please don't ask me if moving your workouts to the AM (so that you can take your dbol and then workout) will help

Andy

 

[trial0r]

about 1,000 posts from this board can all be answered with this thread. karma.

 

[Counterstrike]

Damn Andy you beat me to it I was just going to post the same thing give me karma too

 

[FISHTALES]

i think a lot of reason people take things before the gym is for the psychological boost, people figure it will make them stronger so, there stronger.the mind is more powerful than people think.

 

[Dr.X]

Like Fishtales mentioned, some people believe that taking dbol, etc. before a workout gives their workout a boost, similar to an ECA kick. I myself have never experienced this, but may be a placebo effect in some individuals. Conclusion: do it if you want but don't expect much.

 

[soflaguy]

what about oxandrolone?

I was taking 20mg oxandrolone before my workouts and I would swear it gave me a better workout(greater pumps) than taking it after. Of course I was also taking ALA, creatine, and some high-GI carbs too.

Was this all purely psychological, or would Ox be an exception to the "pre-workout dosing will make my workouts better" theory and actually increase performance?

 

[Rio 2001]

I agree with you that the anabolic, muscle constructing effect of Dianabol has, like all others much more to do with consistent plasmatic levels than with the time of the day that is taken.
However, since it has a rapid absorption, it rises DHT significantly and I think that may indirectly help with training, specially concerning focus and agressiviness( same way methiltest would help performance in a fight, for instance), .
Also, it can have a mineralocorticoid/water retention effect as soon as 3 hours after ingestion, usually giving the "pump"feeling.
I don't think this could significantly affect anabolic results mid/long term, but that would explain why so many people swear it's better to take'm before training.

 

[DiaBOLic86]

good post andy. I make sure to take my dbol as soon as i get up then space them out til i go to bed. This way I maintain a steady level in my system.
Karma

 

[Andy13]

Almost forgot....

You know that cute, little pre-workout roid rage you get from dbol before you go into the gym??? I have one word for that.. PLA-CE-BO.

Andy

 

[Andy13]

However, since it has a rapid absorption, it rises DHT significantly and I think that may indirectly help with training, specially concerning focus and agressiviness( same way methiltest would help performance in a fight, for instance), .

Actually, dbol does not convert to DHT.. at all...

Also, it can have a mineralocorticoid/water retention effect as soon as 3 hours after ingestion, usually giving the "pump"feeling.
I don't think this could significantly affect anabolic results mid/long term, but that would explain why so many people swear it's better to take'm before training.

Can you show me a reference that indicates this? Thanks

Andy

 

[panerai]

So, no CNS stimulation?
BTW, if placebo works for someone, and let him lift consistently heavier, workout after workout, fine, let's use placebo, we work out for results, ain't we?

 

[Suspension]

My arms feel like they are going to pop after training w/ dbol. The pumps are insane. Placebo my ass. I do not need any scientific reference to prove that, I know my body.

-Sus

 

[panerai]

My arms feel like they are going to pop after training w/ dbol. The pumps are insane. Placebo my ass. I do not need any scientific reference to prove that, I know my body.

-Sus

Well, you will get same pumps if you use dbol 24/7, not only before workout.
I know my body too..

 

[Suspension]

Well, you will get same pumps if you use dbol 24/7, not only before workout.
I know my body too..

The pumps are more pronounced when you are working your muscles though, dont you agree? It is not as noticable when you are not training.

 

[jc21]

big bump....i think that is a great post.

have you ever taken biochem or read a lot of biochem?
cause you seem to have a good grasp on it.

 

[Andy13]

My arms feel like they are going to pop after training w/ dbol. The pumps are insane. Placebo my ass. I do not need any scientific reference to prove that, I know my body.

-Sus

How many times a day do you take your dbol? Could it be that it's the already-present-dbol in your system that is providing the pump rather than that dose before the workout?

The pumps are more pronounced when you are working your muscles though, dont you agree? It is not as noticable when you are not training.

Well I certainly get more pumped when I workout versus watching TV.. I sure hope this is the case for everyone..

Andy

 

[Bulldog_10]

Almost forgot....

You know that cute, little pre-workout roid rage you get from dbol before you go into the gym??? I have one word for that.. PLA-CE-BO.

Andy

Isn't that three words?

 

[Golfer18--old]

Awesome post Andy

 

[OMEGA]

But realize that orals taken around the clock are tremendously more effective that when taken only once or twice a day (Bill Roberts).

Andy

I agree with everything else except this point

I do feel a definate charge to my system when I eat 3 dbol or so 2 hours before a workout.

since I am a newbie who wanted some gaines but without the sides of taking an androgen on a 24 hour basis, I would eat all the dbol before workout to get that androgenic component while working out, and it worked, definatly not placebo effect

then while I was recovering, I had PRIMO in me on a 24 hour basis to help along with anabolism, since primo has is almost toatally anabolic, it had little influence on my HPTA, but it still did the job.

I was growing without the need for oral dianabol in me at all times, the PRIMO did it for me.

the androgenic component before workouts was integral to the success of my cylce, i would not have had the intensity without it.

just sharing thoughts

 

[panerai]

Awesome post Andy

No, it's not awsome, it's rather misleading, because dbol, as any other AAS is not only about promoting nitrogen retention, transcription, etc...
Of course, using orals around the clock is the way to go, but a little higher dose, close to workout will boost performance, as well, as another dose right after will help recovery.

 

[Hugh Gellatts]

D-bol acts somewhat like dopamine in regard to the CNS, which is why sometimes it is great pre-workout, and sometimes it makes you sleepy.

I personally like taking 2 proviron tabs 1 hour before lifting...seems to give some good drive.

 

[OMEGA]

No, it's not awsome, it's rather misleading, because dbol, as any other AAS is not only about promoting nitrogen retention, transcription, etc...
Of course, using orals around the clock is the way to go, but a little higher dose, close to workout will boost performance, as well, as another dose right after will help recovery.

I mean it is a adrogen, and what do adrogens do?

it makes you more amped and aggressive, I do feel cns stimulation, even thought others say it does not

oh well?

I like it too Panerai and I am sticken too it

 

[superchicken]

andy

i too beleive in taking dbol spread evenly, but extra before a workout.

we all know we grow for days after a workout. but my thoughts were if graphed, you would see a spike in growth rate after the workout, and steadily declining from there on.

im sure right after the workout the body prob puts more of an emphasis on reloading glucose than protein sythesis. but to me it still seems there should be a heavier dose which will be effective and present in the system, following the workout. as this is a crucial time.

but i still think it needs to be somewhat spaced out still, for optimum results.

any thoughts on this?

 

[Rio 2001]

Andy, I'm sorry, but I never knew Dianabol wouldn't convert to DHT, this is completely new for me. Maybe you are right, but I always read that acne and hair loss from Dianabol came from it's high conversion to DHT. Since i'm positive I'm not alone in that, I'd like to have you bring me and anybody in doubt some light on this matter.
I can't give you any reference on methandrostenelone and mineralocorticoid effect especiffically, I think is physiology common sense, since water retention comes mostly from mineralocorticoid effect from estrogen, test, and other steroids ( cortisol...) that share a similar molecule structure with aldosterone and can bind to receptors in renal tubules sending a signal to retain sodium and water.But again, I can be wrong, so if Dianabol causes retention via other way then that, please tell me what it is.
Thanks a lot.

 

[panerai]

Like HG said, dbol greatly increases production of dopamine, also, first pass through liver stimulates production of IGF-1, also, it blocks cortisol receptors, which is very important postworkout.

 

[Fe3]

This reply is not misleading at all, i agree with Andy.

I would often hear a couple kinds say, "i took 2 halo's before i worked out, I"M PUMPED MAN"

No way-


Omega as far as recovery time and boosted performance, how do you know this. I think that is inconclusive.


Well done gentleman, carry on

 

[Andy13]

Like HG said, dbol greatly increases production of dopamine, also, first pass through liver stimulates production of IGF-1, also, it blocks cortisol receptors, which is very important postworkout.

Great!

Can you show me some references? I'm asking you for these for my OWN personal collection; I'm NOT trying to call you out or anything like that.

On cortisol--

You have to believe that Cytadren takes cortisol out of the picture better than dbol.. So why aren't guys loading up on IT? Can you show me a reference that indicates that inhibition of normal cortisol action after a workout results in greater gains?

IGF-1

FIRST, if dbol stimulates IGF-1 production on first pass through the liver (reference please?), tell me why this is MORE important before/during/after a workout than any other time of the day. Regardless, if the bber is taking dbol, he should already have ongoing IGF-1 production from residual dbol from previous doses.

I'd also like to check out that ref for dbol and dopamine. I'd like to read the entire article if you don't mind... Sounds interesting. But, again, if dbol increases dopamine production, the amount from one dose (before a workout, for instance) really won't increase dopamine levels all that much greater than what would already be there from residual dbol.

So expain why, again, dbol should be taken before a workout?


Andy

 

[Andy13]

andy

i too beleive in taking dbol spread evenly, but extra before a workout.

we all know we grow for days after a workout. but my thoughts were if graphed, you would see a spike in growth rate after the workout, and steadily declining from there on.

im sure right after the workout the body prob puts more of an emphasis on reloading glucose than protein sythesis. but to me it still seems there should be a heavier dose which will be effective and present in the system, following the workout. as this is a crucial time.

but i still think it needs to be somewhat spaced out still, for optimum results.

any thoughts on this?

Ok.. do you have any rational reasoning for why you believe this or is this just your un-tested, gut feeling?

 

[Andy13]

D-bol acts somewhat like dopamine in regard to the CNS, which is why sometimes it is great pre-workout, and sometimes it makes you sleepy.

I personally like taking 2 proviron tabs 1 hour before lifting...seems to give some good drive.

I used to take 4cc of Ref. B/day (I say cc b/c who knows how much that REALLY was)...


It DID seem to kind of give me a sence of well being.. But I don't know.. I probably felt that way because I read that someone else felt that way on dbol..

Andy

 

[Andy13]

Re: Re: Oral AAS before a workout.

I agree with everything else except this point

I do feel a definate charge to my system when I eat 3 dbol or so 2 hours before a workout.

since I am a newbie who wanted some gaines but without the sides of taking an androgen on a 24 hour basis, I would eat all the dbol before workout to get that androgenic component while working out, and it worked, definatly not placebo effect

then while I was recovering, I had PRIMO in me on a 24 hour basis to help along with anabolism, since primo has is almost toatally anabolic, it had little influence on my HPTA, but it still did the job.

I was growing without the need for oral dianabol in me at all times, the PRIMO did it for me.

the androgenic component before workouts was integral to the success of my cylce, i would not have had the intensity without it.

just sharing thoughts

I don't doubt that the dbol helped you along.. But, how do you know it benefited you more to take it before a workout? Dbol has a short half life but there IS a residual buildup from it.. especially if you take 50mg before a workout.. It will take a few days to build, but 24hrs after your last dbol dose, there IS STILL a reasonable amount of dbol in your blood.

Andy

 

[Andy13]

On cortisol and gains.......


Here's a discussion between Bill Roberts and myself on the issue.



(Bill) GR 'blockking' AAS
Andy 2002-05-20 21:25:15
Does you have any info on different AAS and their affinity for the glucocorticoid receptor? How much do you think this property contributes to the over-all effectiveness of the AAS? Andy


Bill Roberts 2002-05-21 13:54:54
I would have to go look stuff up again to give you much of an answer on details of different androgens. (And you'd probably be as quick as me in doing so.) On the question of whether I think it's important to effectiveness, I don't think so. After all, if you want to, you can drive cortisol levels as low as you might like with Cytadren, and this does not improve efficacy of a cycle though it certainly does give you joint pains. So I don't see why an androgen being a glucocorticoid receptor antagonist would be of any more value in increasing gains.

Andy 2002-05-21 20:02:27
I meant to say while dieting, to possibly decrease the expression of gluconeogenic and proteolytic genes. This may shift metabolism a little more toward fatty acid oxidation and maybe slight ketone body production-- neither of which would make a measurable difference in fat loss, but MAY make a difference as far as muscle preservation. Andy

Bill Roberts 2002-05-22 13:45:13
To test this out, try taking Cytadren at doses like 500-1000 mg/day. This will reduce your cortisol. Not to your benefit, I think, but it's something you can try and determine for yourself. This I think would much more clearly answer the question of whether reducing cortisol effect is of value in whatever situation you wish to apply it to, than would trying an androgen which also has some anti-glucocorticoid effect: because in the latter case, you have another factor confounding estimatation of the effect of the antiglucocorticoid activity.

Andy 2002-05-23 14:02:36
Eeewwwwww.... I know of too many benefits from cortisol to be willing to take cytadren (is that the side-chain cleaving enzyme inhibitor?).. The reason why I asked this question in the first place was because I have read a number of papers that suggest that GR antagonization MAY lead to some kind of over-all greater effect from the AAS.. However, these claims were from studies using HRT doses of androgen-- nothing like what would be considered 'effective' for a BBer... I began to wonder if muscle loss while dieting (the kind of diet that lowers the electro-chemical gradient in a certain inner membrane, if you know what I mean) was predominantly due to increased gluconeogenesis. I don't remember the specifics, but there's this so-called pyruvate-alanine cycle works with the liver and muscle and supplies the 3-carbon skeleton's needed for glucose generation in the liver. Not sure about this (I have NO access to any resources right now) but I believe that t3 and cortisol are the main players in the manufacture of protein degrading enzymes for the eventual liberation of alanine... I think fatty acid oxidation enzymes are synthesized in response to other hormones besides cortisol such as epi' and maybe glucagon (last time I checked, the latter was a potent activator of lipase activity IN VITRO, although this had not been demonstrated in vivo). Anyway.. I think t3 is less of a concern as far as muscle loss since it increases protein synthesis (although, apparently not as much as it does degredation). What's YOUR opinion? I trust any gut feeling you have over what some dude who took cytadren has to say. (you know that) Most BBer's analytical methods aren't even logical, let alone experimentally meaningful Andy

Bill Roberts 2002-05-23 21:46:25
The "side effects" from Cytadren are due to the usually-intended effect of decreasing cortisol. If the hypothesis is that reducing effects produced as a consequence of cortisol receptors binding cortisol (by providing an antagonist) will have some desired effect, but the antagonist confounds the issue by having other agonist properties of its own, then this can readily be tested by simply reducing the amount of cortisol and seeing if this gives the desired effect.
But instead, the effect is more or less as you described for higher doses of Cytadren, namely, Eeewwwwww....

"So it does not seem reasonable to attribute benefits of anabolic steroids to reducing cortisol receptor activity, since a known means of reducing this activity does not give the claimed benefit in individuals with normal cortisol levels in the first place." (Bill Roberts)

----------------------------------------------------------

 

[superchicken]

Ok.. do you have any rational reasoning for why you believe this or is this just your un-tested, gut feeling?

no, the only thinking behind it is that muscles are in a prime state for recovery right after a workout. but i dont know how much proetien synthesis occurs during this time, maybe a lot, maybe a little. im asking.

but who knows, there may be other systems which become overloaded, and maybe this wouldnt show much benefit.

also the pump, means more blood in the muscle, possibly aiding more nutrient uptake.

im just pondering, im not arguing you, im asking for an opinion.

to clarify a little, im referring to taking say 1/3 of the daily dose before a workout, then space the rest evenly.

 

[athlete03]

Andy, I know some disagree with some of what Bill Roberts sez. Would you say you completely agree with him?

 

[Andy13]

Absolutely.. Bill knows more about AAS than (for starters) anyone on this board. I'll put it this way- I do not know of ANYONE who could rival his knowledge.

It's really hard to prove Bill wrong at anything.. He's writes in a VERY objective style and does not use 'absolutes' for things which have not been 100% proven to be true. I see guys posts 'absolutes' all the time for things they know NOTHING about. It irritates the hell out of me to see someone post (for instance) "t-prop causes less water retention than TE." I would say to this person.. "how do you know this to be true?" And I will get some illogical, idiotic response such as "I looked leaner while on TP." (which is absolute dogshit as far as any kind of logical or reasonable rationalization.. let alone PROOF enough to state, as an absolute certainty, that TP causes less water retention than TE).


And these are the guys that 'don't agree' with what Bill says. This too irritates me.. Probably because Bill knows 100x more than the idiots who try to attack what he states... Some average joe disagreeing with what BIll says is a lot like some common folks who think that evolution did not happen.. Now.. How is it that these folks somehow know more than people with PhD's in evolutionary biology? Can you imagine a group of 'creation' people versus a group of biology PhDer's in a formal debate? Those folks would get smoked.. Same thing with the average joe juicer versus Bill Roberts..

Andy

 

[BigAndy69]

Absolutely.. Bill knows more about AAS than (for starters) anyone on this board. I'll put it this way- I do not know of ANYONE who could rival his knowledge.

It's really hard to prove Bill wrong at anything.. He's writes in a VERY objective style and does not use 'absolutes' for things which have not been 100% proven to be true. I see guys posts 'absolutes' all the time for things they know NOTHING about. It irritates the hell out of me to see someone post (for instance) "t-prop causes less water retention than TE." I would say to this person.. "how do you know this to be true?" And I will get some illogical, idiotic response such as "I looked leaner while on TP." (which is absolute dogshit as far as any kind of logical or reasonable rationalization.. let alone PROOF enough to state, as an absolute certainty, that TP causes less water retention than TE).


And these are the guys that 'don't agree' with what Bill says. This too irritates me.. Probably because Bill knows 100x more than the idiots who try to attack what he states... Some average joe disagreeing with what BIll says is a lot like some common folks who think that evolution did not happen.. Now.. How is it that these folks somehow know more than people with PhD's in evolutionary biology? Can you imagine a group of 'creation' people versus a group of biology PhDer's in a formal debate? Those folks would get smoked.. Same thing with the average joe juicer versus Bill Roberts..

Andy

I don't agree with this at all. Bill Roberts is most likely the top guy when it comes to THEORETICAL knowledge of steroids but what about real world experience?

Theoretical knowledge is only part of the puzzle, what looks good on paper doesn't always translate to the real world and vice versa

 

[Andy13]

I don't agree with this at all. Bill Roberts is most likely the top guy when it comes to THEORETICAL knowledge of steroids but what about real world experience?

Theoretical knowledge is only part of the puzzle, what looks good on paper doesn't always translate to the real world and vice versa

Do you understand that "theoretical" knowledge (as you call it) is the ONLY logical and reasonable information we have to go on???


I mean, give me a break... You can't say that some dude saying "I did test prop and looked leaner" is EVEN in the ballpark as what is ALREADY known???

If you haven't realized yet, BBing is SO incredibly dominated by psychology... so much that what "some dude" says doesn't mean shit.

 

[Zyglamail]

Do you understand that "theoretical" knowledge (as you call it) is the ONLY logical and reasonable information we have to go on???


I mean, give me a break... You can't say that some dude saying "I did test prop and looked leaner" is EVEN in the ballpark as what is ALREADY known???

If you haven't realized yet, BBing is SO incredibly dominated by psychology... so much that what "some dude" says doesn't mean shit.

I have to agree with Andy13 here. There are some big dudes in the gyms with years of cycling under there belt who really dont have the slightest idea of whats going on within thier bodies or what makes this "stuff" work. They have listened to thier friends and experimented but that doesn make them smart or educated.

Im not trying to discount real world experience but lets face it the real world experience done cant really be quantified or qualified since the data, as Andy has pointed out, is usually nothing more than anecdotal at best.

 

[BigAndy69]

You guys are way off; we are not talking about Big Joe and Big Pete who have been juicing for 10 years and who think Deca a good finishing drug and Clomid is not necessary. We are talking about guys who know there bodies and can see how different compounds affect them. Smart guys like Dan Duchaine.

I consider myself an expert on Clen and T3. Before using either drug, I read all I could; medline, physician desk reference, popular books, websites...

I found that a lot of the theory was off.

A lot of what people are taught is wrong such as T3 will strip you of all your muscle. Theoretically, it makes sense, but in real life it doesn't happen.

I used up to 50mcg with no STEROIDS and I did not lose any muscle or strength. I did look extremely tiny and my muscle were softer than they had ever been. I had trouble "feeling" my muscles because there was such a lack of pump. I looked about 20lbs lighter, yet I haden't lost an ounce. This can easily be thought of as muscle lost but I know my body so I was able to really zoom in on what was going on.

The point is that theory is extremely important, but real world experience is just as important. That's why Duchaine was the man(unlike Roberts), he talked the talk and he walked the walk...

 

[panerai]

Br J Pharmacol 1999 Mar;126(6):1301-6

Increased dopaminergic and 5-hydroxytryptaminergic activities in male rat brain following long-term treatment with anabolic androgenic steroids.

Thiblin I, Finn A, Ross SB, Stenfors C.

Department of Forensic Medicine, Karolinska Institute, Stockholm, Sweden.

1. The effects of treating groups of rats with four different anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) (testosterone, nandrolone, methandrostenolone, and oxymetholone) on 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT) and dopamine (DA) neurones in different brain regions were examined. The AAS was injected six times with 1 week's interval and the rats were sacrificed 2 days after the final injection. 5-HT and its metabolite 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (5-HIAA), DA and its metabolites 3,4-dihydroxyphenylacetic acid (DOPAC) and homovanillic acid (HVA) were measured. The effect on DA and 5-HT synthesis rate was analysed as the accumulation of 3,4-dihydroxyphenyl-alanine (DOPA) and 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP), respectively, after inhibition of the amino acid decarboxylase with NSD-1015 (3-hydroxy-benzylhydrazine dihydrochloride). Additionally, the monoamine oxidase (MAO) activity was analysed in the hypothalamus. 2. The DOPAC + HVA/DA ratio was increased in the striatum in all treatment groups. However, the synthesis rate of DA was significantly increased only in the methandrostenolone treated group. 3. The 5-HIAA/5-HT ratio was increased in all treatment groups in the hippocampus, in the frontal cortex in the methandrostenolone-treated animals and in the hypothalamus in the testosterone- and oxymetholone-treated rats, while the 5-HT synthesis rate was not affected by the AAS-treatments. 4. The MAO-A activity was increased in the oxymetholone-treated rats while the other treatment groups were unaffected. The MAO-B activity was not changed. 5. The results indicate that relatively high doses of AAS increase dopaminergic and 5-hydroxytryptaminergic metabolism in male rat brain, probably due to enhanced turnover in these monaminergic systems.

PMID: 10217522 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dianabol and corisol production....
Why higher dose right before and right after workout? Obviously, before, to stimulate CNS, and both before and after to prevent anti-catabolism, to which hard workout will lead.
Dan Duchaine was saying that as little as 10mg of dbol will decrease endogenous cortisone level by 50-70%.
This method of using dbol russian and east germans were using for years, and nobody knows their dbol better then them. Check all the studies on dbol, half of them come from former eastern block.
While I was not able to locate studies on dbol and contisol, still there are good amount on AAS in general and glucocorticoids.
First of all, what is mechanism of action of AAS regarding catabolism?
Supraphysiological doses may evoke anabolic effects via a separate mechanism independent of the androgen receptor. Indirect evidence has shown this could be an anticatabolic effect based on an antiglucocorticoid action:
AAS can displace glucocorticoids from their glucocorticoid receptor,
Antagonists of glucocorticoids can prevent muscle atrophy,
Large doses of AAS increase the amount of urinary free cortisol. (Wu F C W. Endocrine Aspects of Anabolic Steroids. Clin Chem. 1997. 43 (7): p. 1289 - 1292)
Cortisol enhances glucagon stimulated glycogenolysis and also enhances enzyme activity in mobilising protein from muscle sources ready for conversion to produce glucose. If this activity is inhibited by AAS displacing cortisol for its receptor then catabolism of muscle is prevented and there will be an increase in glycogen retention, increasing endurance.(
Berne R M, Levy M N. Principles of Physiology. 2nd ed. Mosby. 1996. p. 678 - 681)


Taken from
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/bahrke/bahrke10.htm

Hevery et al. (1976) reported that one benefit of taking anabolic-androgenic steroids, as expressed by some athletes, lay in the reduction of fatigue during the training season, which allows for more training to be done. Freed et al. (1975) provide anecdotal and self-report information that athletes using anabolic-androgenic steroids are generally less easily fatigued, allowing for longer, more frequent and/or intense training sessions. This could be related to the fact that anabolic-androgenic steroids can block and reverse the anticatabolic effects of glucocorticosteroids that are released during periods of stress including physical exertion (Kochakian 1976; Kruskemper 1968; Williams 1981). Work with rats has also demonstrated reduced alkaline protease activity (Dahlmann et al. 1981) and increased glycogen supercompensation (Gillepsie & Edgerton 1970) in androgen-related animals

Some more studies:

1. Br J Nutr 1986 Jul;56(1):289-304 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut


The effect of manipulating growth in sheep by diet or anabolic agents on plasma cortisol and muscle glucocorticoid receptors.

Sharpe PM, Buttery PJ, Haynes NB.

University of Nottingham School of Agriculture, Loughborough, Leics.

1. The cortisol status (total plasma cortisol concentration, free cortisol concentration, transcortin capacity) and the characteristics of skeletal muscle binding for cortisol and dexamethasone were examined in female lambs either implanted with Zeranol or trenbolone acetate or whose dietary intake was restricted. 2. The skeletal muscle glucocorticoid receptor had a high affinity for the glucocorticoid triamcinolone (relative binding affinity 0.85) and cortisol (relative binding affinity 0.51) with virtually no affinity for trenbolone. 3. Trenbolone acetate treatment reduced the binding capacity of sheep skeletal muscle for cortisol within 2 d of implantation. The other treatments had little effect except a small reduction in the animals where food intake was restricted. Similarly, binding capacity for dexamethasone was reduced by trenbolone acetate treatment but was not affected by the other treatments. This reduction in trenbolone acetate-treated animals is, at least in part, due to a reduction in glucocorticoid receptors. 4. Transcortin capacity was elevated by Zeranol treatment but reduced with diet restriction or trenbolone treatment. 5. No support for the suggestion of free cortisol concentration being important in the growth-promoting mechanism of trenbolone or Zeranol was obtained. 6. Although insulin concentrations were not significantly altered by treatment (P greater than 0.05), when combining all the animals there was evidence of a negative correlation between total cortisol/insulin value (P less than 0.05) or free cortisol:insulin value and growth rate (P less than 0.001). Free cortisol was negatively correlated to growth rate (P less than 0.05) and transcortin capacity positively correlated (P less than 0.01).

PMID: 3314981 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Am J Physiol 1975 Nov;229(5):1381-6 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut


Interaction of anabolic steroids with glucocorticoid receptor sites in rat muscle cytosol.

Mayer M, Rosen F.

While glucocorticoid hormones act catabolically on skeletal muscle through their binding to glucocorticoid-specific receptors in the cytosol, androgens exert anabolic responses but no androgen-specific binding proteins could be detected in this responsive tissue. However, various nonradioactive androgens were effective in displacing labeled dexamethasone or cortisol from their respective cytoplasmic receptors in muscle, both in vitro and in vivo. The inhibition of glucocorticoid binding by androgens is competitive, and could be observed following a single or repeated administration of the androgens to adrenalectomized-castrated animals. The synthetic androgen fluoxymesterone and the hormone testosterone displayed Ki values of 7.5 X 10(-6) M and 1 X 10(-5) M, respectively, for the inhibition of [3H]dexamethasone binding in muscle cytosol. On the basis of competition experiments it is postulated that interaction of androgens with glucocorticoid receptors prevents the binding of glucocorticoids and might be responsible in part for the anabolic effects of pharmacologic doses of androgens in muscle.

PMID: 173192 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, even I read numerous times that 17-alpha methyl group stimulate liver to produce growth factors, I couldn't find any studies that would prove it. Still, it doesn't mean, it's not true, just some more research should be done.
Nevertherless, due fast acting of methandienone, first pass through liver will spike activity in aromatise enzyme, and spike in estrogen level will in turn stimulate IGF-1.

Now, why slightly higher dose right before workout? Simply for the spikes reason in CNS stimulation, dopamine production, IGF-1 release and anti-catabolic effect postworkout.

 

[jsn]

are you crazy !? you believe in evolution ??!

jsn

 

[panerai]

Why Cytadren is a poor choice?
First of all, there's no need to inhibit cortisol production as efficiently, as aminoglutethimide does. AAS alone prevent falling into catabolic state, to enough degree. Secondly, in doses around 1000mg/day, high enough to inhibit cortisol production, Cytadren will inhibit production of androgens( not important on cycle), aldosterone and thyroid hormone, no good!
Bunch of milder side effects have to be expected, like rashes, swolling, vomiting, dizziness, disorientation, etc..
And, the most importantly, with such a doses, because of feedback mechanism, in a matter of two weeks, body, dispite presence of Cytadren, will start again production, and, actually, overproduction of cortisol.


Andy, you asked, if antiglucocoticoid action is beneficial for growth. Well, it will not grow muscles, but certainly will prevent them from waisting, like postworkout, for example, or other stress cituations.

 

[Zyglamail]

A lot of what people are taught is wrong such as T3 will strip you of all your muscle. Theoretically, it makes sense, but in real life it doesn't happen.

Hmm, so what your saying is T3 does not (or will not) strip muscle? If thats the case what about the couple dozen people I have talked to who once they hit 150-200mcg dialy they get lethargic, lose strenght and size?

 

[Andy13]

Why Cytadren is a poor choice?
First of all, there's no need to inhibit cortisol production as efficiently, as aminoglutethimide does. AAS alone prevent falling into catabolic state, to enough degree. Secondly, in doses around 1000mg/day, high enough to inhibit cortisol production, Cytadren will inhibit production of androgens( not important on cycle), aldosterone and thyroid hormone, no good!
Bunch of milder side effects have to be expected, like rashes, swolling, vomiting, dizziness, disorientation, etc..
And, the most importantly, with such a doses, because of feedback mechanism, in a matter of two weeks, body, dispite presence of Cytadren, will start again production, and, actually, overproduction of cortisol.


Andy, you asked, if antiglucocoticoid action is beneficial for growth. Well, it will not grow muscles, but certainly will prevent them from waisting, like postworkout, for example, or other stress cituations.

Thanks for the references..

I've read before where androgens can block GR's... No question about that.. BUT is reducing (normal) GR activation really going to make a measurable difference in muscle growth? Your papers only confirm the ability of AAS to reduce GR activation.. But it only postulates the possibility that this may contribute to the over-all effectiveness of the AAS.

Whether or not lower GR activation had a positive effect on gains was a topic I discussed with Bill Roberts... You can bring your GR activation to a screaching halt by using cytadren.. But, as stated by Bill Roberts, it really doesn't seem to make that much of a difference as far as increasing over-all effectiveness. While I agree that HIGH cortisol levels certainly will affect growth, I'm not so sure physiological levels hinder growth all that much.. Yes, I KNOW that paper states the possibility of blocking GRs as a way for AAS to work.. But, again, back to cytadren, where extremely low cortisol levels can be obtained, but not to the benefit of any athelete.

Andy

 

[Andy13]

I consider myself an expert on Clen and T3. Before using either drug, I read all I could; medline, physician desk reference, popular books, websites...

I found that a lot of the theory was off.

Well that's fantastic....

A lot of what people are taught is wrong such as T3 will strip you of all your muscle. Theoretically, it makes sense, but in real life it doesn't happen.

I used up to 50mcg with no STEROIDS and I did not lose any muscle or strength. I did look extremely tiny and my muscle were softer than they had ever been. I had trouble "feeling" my muscles because there was such a lack of pump. I looked about 20lbs lighter, yet I haden't lost an ounce. This can easily be thought of as muscle lost but I know my body so I was able to really zoom in on what was going on.

Mmmmk... Why don't you just re-read what you have written.. You "looked extremely tiny," had trouble "feeling" your muscles, and were softer than you have ever been.. Yup. Definetly sounds like you held on to every single ounce of muscle!

The point is that theory is extremely important, but real world experience is just as important. That's why Duchaine was the man(unlike Roberts), he talked the talk and he walked the walk...

Ok.. How do you know Bill Roberts doesn't "walk the walk?" Have you ever seen a picture of DD? Yeah, buddy.. 'Walk the walk...'

I think that real-word expirience is important too... But do you realize that the analytical methods that BBer's use is (count to ten..) less than meaningful. What I mean is that there isn't much that comes out of a BBer's mouth that you can REALLY hang a hat on. "I felt leaner." Ok.. Maybe when he looked in the mirror and thought this he: had just tanned, just got a girl's phone number, had a seratonin rush, had a meal earlier that made his veins come out and filled his glycogen stores... Or, maybe he just replaced a light bulb in his bathroom..

Do you see where I'm coming from here??? There's nothing here to quantify his results.. Even body fat analysis, statistically, has such a margin of error to make conclusions drawn from a diet/AAS program highly suspect.. And you know what? Most BBer's don't even bother to take bodyfat measurements! They just go on "how they look." After all, "they know their bodies." Give me a break.. Guess what? I know my bamboo tree too... I see it every day. It doesn't move or anything.. Buuuuut.... I can't even begin to judge how effective this conkoction I made up is at making it grow unless I measure it.

Andy

 

[BigAndy69]

"Mmmmk... Why don't you just re-read what you have written.. You "looked extremely tiny," had trouble "feeling" your muscles, and were softer than you have ever
been.. Yup. Definetly sounds like you held on to every single ounce of muscle! "

My strength stayed the same, same number of reps for the same amount of weight used. It actually increased for some lifts. My arm measurements stayed the same as well as my chest measurements. BTW, I noticed that the bad feeling went away when I trained and pumped more blood into my muscles. My friend was shocked on how much larger I looked after my workout. He saw me right before my workout in the locker room and right after. I didn't tell him anything about a lack of muscle pump or anything similar, he just saw the change on his own.


"Well that's fantastic.... "

I don't understand what you mean by this, I was simply making the point that a lot of what I read was off and I wouldn't have known this unless I tried it on myself.




Ok.. How do you know Bill Roberts doesn't "walk the walk?" Have you ever seen a picture of DD? Yeah, buddy.. 'Walk the walk...'

No, I've never seen pictures of Bill Roberts, and I'm not suprised. DD had kidney problems, do you expect him to be a monster? By walk the walk, I meant that DD actually tried these things on himself and we know this because he came up with real world, anectodal information that Roberts never seems to come up with. Roberts has never claimed to use any of the drugs or theory he writes about.


Also, we are not talking about BBers who simply think they look leaner, we are talking about guys you measure every last gram of food and take measurements weekly.

 

[panerai]

I don't think that we are talking about physiological level of cortisol, if someone properly trains while using AAS. One can push himself so much harder, without going into overtraining and instead of gaining, loosing muscles, as would happen to natural athlete.
Why top pros like Ronnie Coleman can train each bodypart twice a week, with non human intensity, and still grow?
Same, with Lee Priest, Shawn Ray, and some others?
Does Bill have an explanation for it?
Or, should we brush it off, because, there's no studies done on those individuals?
Late Paul Borreson ideas about using high amounts of AAS and pushing oneself to the limit, to try to get into as much of catabolic state as possible, which would simply result in anabolic responce, if enough AAS are used, make a lot of sense, if you observe what pros are doing, and how they transform in such a short period of time (Levrone, Priest, Kamali, etc..)
Again, your reference to Cytadren doesn't make much sense, because, it's not effecient on a long run, unless you do two weeks cycles.

 

[panerai]

[Quantitative bibliographic review on the use of anabolic hormones with steroidogenic action in ruminants for meat production. II. Principal mode of action]

[Revue bibliographique quantitative sur l'utilisation des hormones anabolisantes a action steroidienne chez les ruminants en production de viande. II. Principaux modes d'action.]
Reprod Nutr Dev 1993;33(4):297-323 (ISSN: 0926-5287)

Schmidely P [Find other articles with this Author]
INA-PG, station Nutrition et Alimentation, Paris, France.

The hypotheses on the modes of action of hormonal anabolic agents in growing animals have been reviewed in more than 120 recent publications. The mechanisms of action are still not fully understood. Androgens such as testosterone and estrogens such as oestradiol-17 beta (E-17 beta) may act in different ways: firstly, testosterone (and probably also E-17 beta) acts directly on different tissues, and particularly at the level of the muscle cell by binding to a specific receptor. The hormone-receptor complex interacts with the nuclear receptor located in the chromatin and enhances protein synthesis (and probably also protein degradation). Trenbolone acetate (TBA) reduces protein synthesis and to a greater extent protein degradation. This action of TBA could take place via a reduction in the activity of catabolic glucocorticoids, either by a diminution in their secretion, or by displacing them from their receptor, or by reducing the number of receptors. Secondly, an indirect action of anabolic hormones is probable via the modifications in activity of other growth-regulating hormones. Growth hormone and insulin-like growth factor-I concentrations are enhanced by E-17 beta, diethylstilbestrol, zeranol and testosterone but not by TBA. Insulin appears to be indirectly enhanced by estrogens through an increase in growth hormone, whereas androgens reduce insulin levels. Thyroid hormone (tri- and tetra-iodothyronine) activity is reduced by androgens, whereas the action of oestrogens depends on the physiological maturity of the animal. The modes of action of these anabolic hormones are discussed in relation to growth rate and body composition.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, most of users don't gain a lot from Tren only, but just from CNS stimulation and antiglucocorticoid action, some noticable gains are achived.
Of course, Test and dbol are different, but they all are strong androgens, and, actually, Test and dbol have aromatise activity as an advantage for growth, comparing to Tren, besides the "pure" anabolic action.

 

[CRNT93]

Trenbolone acetate (TBA) reduces protein synthesis and to a greater extent protein degradation.

WTF! Trenbolone REDUCES protein synthesis?!

 

[DEI]

Bump

 

[Japanese machine]

sweet info bro, thanks for taking the time to post it.

 

[BigAndy69]

Hmm, so what your saying is T3 does not (or will not) strip muscle? If thats the case what about the couple dozen people I have talked to who once they hit 150-200mcg dialy they get lethargic, lose strenght and size?

Must have missed this one.

I said that T3 is not as bad as people imagine...you've got guys asking if 1gram of test is enough to stop muscle burning.

At one point increasing doses of T3 result in more side effects and maybe some added benefit but not much. You don't need to go over 75-100mcg of T3. If you do, you are fuckin' yourself up in a big way.

The bottom line is T3 is a potent calories burner that doesn't discrimanate between protein, carbs and Fat. You don't need 150-200mcg. When you're using these amounts you need to counter loss in LBM with Massive amounts of AS. There's a limit to how much fat the body can burn in a week; when you're taking 200mcg, the rest of the weight loss is muscle. It doesn't take a genius to figure it out.

 

[Next Arnold]

Great post, this will help out all those fags who preach about taking orals before workouts to improve their performance!!
karma!

 

[OMEGA]

Re: Re: Re: Oral AAS before a workout.

I don't doubt that the dbol helped you along.. But, how do you know it benefited you more to take it before a workout? Dbol has a short half life but there IS a residual buildup from it.. especially if you take 50mg before a workout.. It will take a few days to build, but 24hrs after your last dbol dose, there IS STILL a reasonable amount of dbol in your blood.

Andy

well the first cyle I did was primo only at 300 mgs a week

and it took forever to gain 12 pounds of it......and it was not too fun

then my second was 10-15 mgs of dbol before workouts and only 100 mgs of Primo every 4 days....thats right LESS primo was taken!............ and it as wayyyyyyyyy better

 

[Hulk101]

This post is an instant classic. Almost like reading a book.

 

[Hugh Gellatts]

aaaaak...my brain has been downsized to handle triedia BS...cannot comprehend this post...okay, I'll try to explain my post and non-scientific backed reasoning:


I'm not a real big fan of d-bol, since it seems to be the only steroid that gives me hair loss. when i did use it though, i took roughly 50% of the daily dose pre and post-workout. this was because at the time i was using insulin post-workout and wanted to take advantage of a boost in IGF1 in that window. i dunno, aren't they highly synergistic. regardless, i tend to take in a very disproportunate amount of my daily calories post workout, and want to have d-bol levels highest during that period to increase protein synthesis.


i do think that the pre-workout short term dopamine boost is signifigant. when i have used welbutrin (another dopaminergin) i get a simular rush and rise in blood pressure, often followed an hour after taking with a nose-bleed (dopaminergins will raise blood pressure). i get the exact same thing after any large dose of d-bol.

As for t-3 and muscle loss, alot of that is dependent on diet. i dunno if you compensated for the increased calories burnt by the T-3 by eating more? Even if it doesn't directly burn muscle, if it is making you feel flat and less energetic you won't be able to train as hard, which will cut into muscle gain (at least that is what frustrates me when i am on t-3).

 

[macrophage69alpha]

Well, you will get same pumps if you use dbol 24/7, not only before workout.
I know my body too..

welcome to the world of estrogenic metabolites.. the fun metabolites of dbol that just loves to hang around for a lot longer that poor little dbol itself.. which btw- has a half life under 2hrs

 

[macrophage69alpha]

btw- that half life is directed toward andy..

 

[macrophage69alpha]

 

[Andy13]

btw- that half life is directed toward andy..

Can you show this?

 

[nautica]

i think a lot of reason people take things before the gym is for the psychological boost, people figure it will make them stronger so, there stronger.the mind is more powerful than people think.

Agreed.

 

[rperry]

personally i agree w/ nautica. it makes me more fired up in my head and thats realy where the workout happens for me. if im not jacked in my head than i mite as well drive right back home cause the workout my body will be performing wont even be worth setting foot in the gym.


i hit 10mg of d-bol for a few weeks between cycles just for gtins to see what it would do. im sure it fucked with my body chemistry pretty bad since i was just done with a cycle a few weeks ago and was still recovering but i had awesoem workouts.

 

[supertech69]

Well I certainly get more pumped when I workout versus watching TV.. I sure hope this is the case for everyone..

Andy

Depends on whatI'm watching! Seeing Jenna J. Taking it in the .....well, that gets me pretty pumped!

 

[panerai]

Can you show this?

Interesting....

 

[Andy13]

welcome to the world of estrogenic metabolites.. the fun metabolites of dbol that just loves to hang around for a lot longer that poor little dbol itself.. which btw- has a half life under 2hrs

Hmmm... Soooo then... It sure would be interesting to see if guys who cycle dbol (only) along with l-dex get a pump at all...

I'm not convinced E2 is responsible that much for the "pump".

Andy

 

[macrophage69alpha]

Hmmm... Soooo then... It sure would be interesting to see if guys who cycle dbol (only) along with l-dex get a pump at all...

I'm not convinced E2 is responsible that much for the "pump".

Andy

interestingly those that use dbol with liquidex get LESS pump.. however dbol seems to increase aromatase more than other orals as well (maybe why people have "claimed" in the past that dbol aromatizes easily..) .. so you still will get conversion with dbol and liquidex.. as many users have found..

 

[panerai]

Hmmm... Soooo then... It sure would be interesting to see if guys who cycle dbol (only) along with l-dex get a pump at all...

I'm not convinced E2 is responsible that much for the "pump".

Andy

I use dbol(not only) with liquidex, and don't get any pumps, at all. A year ago, I was using dbol(not only) without liquidex( just some Cytadren, not enough for all the aromatics, obviously) and pumps were hard to deal with. I had to sit down for at least 10-15min after each back or leg workout.
Now, with liquidex, I actually enjoy having dbol in my stack.
Of course, it's not a proof that pumps are due to estro metabolites, but, I think, that it's highly possible.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

I use dbol(not only) with liquidex, and don't get any pumps, at all. A year ago, I was using dbol(not only) without liquidex( just some Cytadren, not enough for all the aromatics, obviously) and pumps were hard to deal with. I had to sit down for at least 10-15min after each back or leg workout.
Now, with liquidex, I actually enjoy having dbol in my stack.
Of course, it's not a proof that pumps are due to estro metabolites, but, I think, that it's highly possible.

your experience is not uncommon.. take a couple days off(3-4) of liquidex.. MAJOR PUMPS..

 

[Andy13]

your experience is not uncommon.. take a couple days off(3-4) of liquidex.. MAJOR PUMPS..

I know it FEELS like you are growing when you are pumped.. But does the size of the 'pump,' in ANY way relate to the effectiveness of the AAS?

THis isn't a fair question to ask.. If a guy loads up on anadrol, and, gets PUMPED in the gym, he willl certainly say that he made gains.. And then, after the cycle, wonder where all of his gains went..


So can you really say that the size of the pump has anything (whatsoever) to do with the effectivness of the AAS? I might also add that your diet plays a half-way decent role in the size of the pump.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

ANDY.. not directly.. merely that less estrogen= less pump..

however the fluid adds stability, both muscular and hence also joint.. allowing for heavier poundages in training (though for some pump also decreases reps.. ie.. too pumped)

btw- am still trying to find half life data.. pretty sure that it is 1.5-2hr with oral admin.. but have seen on one MDSE site 3.25-3.5hrs.. but no specified admin route..

 

[THeMaCHinE]

Wouldn't the increased stretching of muscle fascia (induced by a more severe pump) lead to more growth (over a long period)...

 

[nandroloner]

Sure, AAS promotes muscle growth through increased protein synthesis. Of course it's best, looking at it from this angle only, to say that having a constant level of AAS in the body is preferable. But what really causes the muscle to grow? Is it not the microscopic tears that are created during a workout? This being the case, there could be as much, if not more, benefit in increasing the intensity of the the workout and thus increasing the number of microscopic muscle tears. It stands to reason that the rapid androgenic effect of dbol, causing an increase in strength, would also cause more "damage" to the muscle tissue and require healing, which equals growth.

Just my .02

 

[fhg43]

Hmmm... Soooo then... It sure would be interesting to see if guys who cycle dbol (only) along with l-dex get a pump at all...

I'm not convinced E2 is responsible that much for the "pump".

Andy

I am outta my league with you guys but here goes:
My understanding is that increased pumps come from the increase in blood volume. Most AAS exert some kind of RBC (red blood cell) count boosting effect on the body-like EPO but much less pronounced. EQ has a significant RBC increasing effect. There is another steriod that is synthetic (not ox or methyltest) and has a similar effect. It is often given to anemia patients. I have read a few anecdotal reports that dbol does increase RBC counts but have no scientific proof.

Sorry Andy13 I know you like solid facts but I didn't have much. FHG

 

[celica]

bump

 

[Mavy]

Just curious Andy, if you have actually tried this yourself, or if you have never bothered because of what "Bill" said?

I have always equally divided my dbol doses throughout the whole day and even woke up in the middle night/early morning to keep consistent.

Now... my last cycle I took a different approach, by taking a double dose (10mgs) 3 hrs before my workout, and 3hrs after. I swear to you that my pumps were insane, and much better than before. I also put on the much more size. I switched from Naps (the norm for me) to Russian dbol, but that cant explain it because dbol is dbol. Its the only thing I could think of. Call it placebo, if you like. I think that the 10 mgs 3 hrs after was just as accountable for the great gains, by working on my shocked hungry muscles.

Who cares what Bill Roberts has to say. You should know that there is no one Demi God whos word is the law in the bodybuilding world. Fuck Bill. I too trust my body over what someone wrote in a book.

All the old theories that were written in books are being proved wrong all the time nowadays and changing.

Mavy

 

[Juice Authority]

Thanks Andy. Great info. I borrowed this and made it a sticky over at A-A.

http://www.reala-a.com/Forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=819

 

[bigdelt69]

Hey andy, been itching to talk with you about this cortisol thing.

I really dont think many people take this important hormone seriously. So andy......spill your guts on all you know about cortisol and its effects on retaining gains, loosing gains, immune function, ect...

Man if we could just get one thread like this a week.....we could pick the Anabolic board out of the slump its been in for a while.

 

[Juice Authority]

Hey bigdelt69. Good to see you Bro.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Can't stay. But I couldn't resist this one.

FACT: D-bol is in the bloodstream approximately one hour after ingestion.

FACT: A blood test at this time will reveal an elevaton of testosterone and red blood count.

FACT: Incresed blood volume increases the pump.

FACT: Fascial stretching provided by a pump may lead to greater muscle growth.


FACT: The greater the pump the more nutrients that enter the surrounding tissues.

FACT: D-bol effects somatropin, dopmaine and endorphin levels resulting in what is referred to some as a "d-bol high". Placebo? Perhaps. But there's legitamate chemistry behind it.

FACT: D-bol will cause a temporary increase in strength.

FACT: Dosing around the clock will provie more of an effect than single dosing...DUH!

FACT: Taking D-bol post workout will increase nitrogen (protein) uptake and slow the rate in which protein is broken down in the muscle cell.

FACT: Bill Roberts is an educated idiot.

(People who don't understand how that's possible need to live a little longer, that's all).





References will be provided upon presention of proof that an apple is red.



.

 

[Citruscide]

Can't stay. But I couldn't resist this one.

FACT: D-bol is in the bloodstream approximately one hour after ingestion.

FACT: A blood test at this time will reveal an elevaton of testosterone and red blood count.

FACT: Incresed blood volume increases the pump.

FACT: Fascial stretching provided by a pump may lead to greater muscle growth.


FACT: The greater the pump the more nutrients that enter the surrounding tissues.

FACT: D-bol effects somatropin, dopmaine and endorphin levels resulting in what is referred to some as a "d-bol high". Placebo? Perhaps. But there's legitamate chemistry behind it.

FACT: D-bol will cause a temporary increase in strength.

FACT: Dosing around the clock will provie more of an effect than single dosing...DUH!

FACT: Taking D-bol post workout will increase nitrogen (protein) uptake and slow the rate in which protein is broken down in the muscle cell.

FACT: Bill Roberts is an educated idiot.

(People who don't understand how that's possible need to live a little longer, that's all).





References will be provided upon presention of proof that an apple is red.



.

Good to have you back.

 

[genarr3]

Posted by Andy13
"t-prop causes less water retention than TE."

Thank you thank you. I get sick to my stomach everytime I read this. I "feel" is one of the most subjective determination of results there is. There are so many other factors involved. This is why drug companies do double blind tests and still get it wrong.

For the last time ...
Test is Test.

 

[genarr3]

Can't stay. But I couldn't resist this one.

FACT: D-bol is in the bloodstream approximately one hour after ingestion. ...

.

Glad to see you back bro.

 

[rjl296]

[B


References will be provided upon presention of proof that an apple is red.



. [/B]

good one.

but now im confused

 

[Juice Authority]

FACT: A blood test at this time will reveal an elevaton of testosterone and red blood count.

Wonderful to see you back Bro. I've missed you .

Anyway, back to your facts....so D-bol raises testosterone?? This I was unaware of. Many people take D-bol in cutting cycles since it raises dopamine levels which helps in burning fat. As for the evalation on Testosterone, I don't know about that one. It really doesn't raise test levels that much but it has an incredible impact on muscle catabolism.

 

[sk*]

References will be provided upon presention of proof that an apple is red.

HA, you're nitpicking. Noone asked you to define the universe!

Nice to see you back.

-sk

 

[JibbyJabba]

Wonderful to see you back Bro. I've missed you .

Anyway, back to your facts....so D-bol raises testosterone?? This I was unaware of. Many people take D-bol in cutting cycles since it raises dopamine levels which helps in burning fat. As for the evalation on Testosterone, I don't know about that one. It really doesn't raise test levels that much but it has an incredible impact on muscle catabolism.

Taken from Anabolicreview:

"Dianabol reaches the blood after 1-3 hours. A simple application of only 10 mg results in a 5-fold increase in the average testosterone concentration in the male."

Now... whether or not you agree that Dbol actually does increase testosterone is one thing... however, I don't know how you can be part of the online AS community and have never had heard this before... it's on every other Dianabol drug profile... it's not like Nelson pulled this out of his ass.

JJ

 

[hhajdo]

DBol will lower your test levels.

 

[JibbyJabba]

DBol will lower your test levels.

Well... I think it's obvious that using Dbol will shut you down, however I don't think that is what is being referred to here.

Take prohormones for example. As in, prohormones overall will impair your HPTA, but will lead to a short-lived (a matter of hours) increase in endogenous testosterone. This is what I have heard is the case with Dianabol as well. I guess I am thinking of Dbol as somewhat of a prohormone in this respect (with regards to testosterone - and please realize I don't consider Dbol to be a prohormone).

Am I making sense? I realize I could be way off-base here, but this is just what I've picked up along the way and I think it's what Nelson was saying when he said that one's serum testosterone levels will be elevated within a few hours of ingestion.

Now... I believe this because I believe Nelson and I've heard it many times. However, I know you're the study man... so please show me why/If you believe I am wrong here.

JJ

 

[Juice Authority]

Taken from Anabolicreview:

"Dianabol reaches the blood after 1-3 hours. A simple application of only 10 mg results in a 5-fold increase in the average testosterone concentration in the male."

Now... whether or not you agree that Dbol actually does increase testosterone is one thing... however, I don't know how you can be part of the online AS community and have never had heard this before... it's on every other Dianabol drug profile... it's not like Nelson pulled this out of his ass.

JJ

I'm aware of that but I've seen studies that conclusively show that D-bol had the opposite effect whereby it decreased Testosterone levels. Do you think the information posted on various drug profiles is always completely accurate??? I don't think so. A lot of information available is dated and inaccurate.

 

[hhajdo]

Well... I think it's obvious that using Dbol will shut you down, however I don't think that is what is being referred to here.

Take prohormones for example. As in, prohormones overall will impair your HPTA, but will lead to a short-lived (a matter of hours) increase in endogenous testosterone. This is what I have heard is the case with Dianabol as well. I guess I am thinking of Dbol as somewhat of a prohormone in this respect (with regards to testosterone - and please realize I don't consider Dbol to be a prohormone).

Am I making sense? I realize I could be way off-base here, but this is just what I've picked up along the way and I think it's what Nelson was saying when he said that one's serum testosterone levels will be elevated within a few hours of ingestion.

Now... I believe this because I believe Nelson and I've heard it many times. However, I know you're the study man... so please show me why/If you believe I am wrong here.

JJ

DBol doesn't convert to test.
If you take it, blood level of methandrostenolone & its metabolites will increase, test will actually go down...
You really shouldn't rely on those profiles bro...

 

[JibbyJabba]

I'm aware of that but I've seen studies that conclusively show that D-bol had the opposite effect whereby it decreased Testosterone levels. Do you think the information posted on various drug profiles is always completely accurate??? I don't think so. A lot of information available is dated and inaccurate.

Are you sure you're not a woman? Always twisting shit around.

I never said I had some sort of definitive proof as to whether or not this is true... never didi I calim a drug profile to be any sort of proof. You have a major problem with reading into things and not reading exactly what people write.

I just took issue when you made it seem like Nelson was saying something about Dbol that was completely new and foreign - I have heard/read this about Dbol many times. Given that it pops up so much that it is almost common knowledge, the burden to prove otherwise lies upon you. You claim you have seen studies that conclusively prove that, upon ingestion, Dbol lowers serum levels of testosterone. Ok... post them... I have no reason to believe you over Nelson until you do so.

JJ

 

[JibbyJabba]

DBol doesn't convert to test.
If you take it, blood level of methandrostenolone & its metabolites will increase, test will actually go down...
You really shouldn't rely on those profiles bro...

I'm not relying on a drug profile... never did I say that I consider a profile proof.

What you say about Methandro increasing is obvious and was assumed by me...

Please elaborate why ingestion of Dbol cannot lead to a short-term raise in endogenous testosterone.

 

[Juice Authority]

Are you sure you're not a woman? Always twisting shit around.

I never said I had some sort of definitive proof as to whether or not this is true... never didi I calim a drug profile to be any sort of proof. You have a major problem with reading into things and not reading exactly what people write.

I just took issue when you made it seem like Nelson was saying something about Dbol that was completely new and foreign - I have heard/read this about Dbol many times. Given that it pops up so much that it is almost common knowledge, the burden to prove otherwise lies upon you. You claim you have seen studies that conclusively prove that, upon ingestion, Dbol lowers serum levels of testosterone. Ok... post them... I have no reason to believe you over Nelson until you do so.

JJ

WTF? Did you somehow take what I said as a flame?? Relax Bro. I'll find that studies I was referring to. They're around here somewhere.

 

[hhajdo]

DBol is not a testosterone prohormone.

 

[JibbyJabba]

DBol is not a testosterone prohormone.

Oh Good Lord... I think you are missing the point. I know Dbol is not a prohormone.

Why do I have to keep saying this? Maybe I am being unclear.

You claim, that upon ingesting Dbol, your serum levels of testosterone will be lowered. OK...fine... Is this just a matter of purely deductive reasoning (like 2+2 = 4) and therefore proves to be an irrefutable maxim that is to be unquestioned? No... it flies in the face of what many people think... what Nelson thinks... therefore, you have the burden of proving your claim. Merely stating it over and over again doesn't suffice. Prove to me, either via study, or explanation of the mechanisms involved (which I guarantee I am probably ignorant of), that what you say holds any merit. C'mon bro... you're the study man...lots of studies... badass studies... bust one out. That is all I am asking... I know Dbol is not a prohormone and If you re-read what I wrote it was merely an analogy.

 

[hhajdo]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=61389&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=793272&dopt=Abstract

 

[ReallyHighIntensity]

nice read

 

[Juice Authority]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=61389&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=793272&dopt=Abstract

Nice hhajdo. That should shut JibbyJabba up for a while.

"On the drug, plasma-cortisol concentration and urinary cortisol excretion increased, and plasma-testosterone decreased."

 

[JibbyJabba]

Nice hhajdo. That should shut JibbyJabba up for a while.

"On the drug, plasma-cortisol concentration and urinary cortisol excretion increased, and plasma-testosterone decreased."

Juice Authority, you really couldn't be less of an authority on juice.

DID YOU EVEN READ THAT FUCKING STUDY?

It was based upon the effects of Dbol administered at 100mgs a day for 6 weeks... IF YOU COULD JUST FUCKING READ... you would see that I never doubted that this would lead to an OVERALL reduction in plasma testosterone. I KNOW THIS!!! Using Dbol at 100mgs a day for 6 weeks will lead to an overall decrease in plasma testosterone... I NEVER SAID IT WOULDN"T!!!! PAY FUCKING ATTENTION!!!!

I supported Nelson's claim that, in the FEW HOURS after ingestion of Dbol, one experiences an increase in plasma testosterone (albeit short-lived)... NEITHER OF THESE STUDIES REFUTES THIS. READ IT!!! They both suggest that Dbol will impair HPTA function...where did I disagree with this? I am claiming something very different than what you are trying to prove... FUCKING READ WHAT I SAID...

Also... did you notice that that study found that "Strength and performance improved over each training period, but not significantly differently on drug and placebo" ARE YOU KIDDING ME? The strength of people who took 100mgs of Dbol for 6 weeks didn't increase, relative to those who took fucking sugar pills? GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK!!!

The other study was based completely on people after they had taken 15mgs of Dbol a day for 2 months... NOT RELEVANT TO THE CLAIM I AM MAKING!!! NOT AT ALL!!! WAKE THE FUCK UP!!!

Show me a fucking study that refutes what Nelson said... Show me a study that says that, WITHIN A FEW HOURS of ingesting Dianabol, one's testosterone levels decreases, rather than increases... PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE prove to me that you can read!!! READ WHAT I AM SAYING BEFORE YOU RESPOND, AGAIN, TO SOMETHING I DIDN"T SAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Juice Authority]

LOL! You crack me up Bro.

 

[JibbyJabba]

LOL! You crack me up Bro.

Good response bro...

I can see how you drove Nelson to near madness.