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NELSON and a.m cardio enthusiasts.. interesting read!

  • Thread starter Thread starter satchboogie
  • Start date Start date
Nelson Montana said:
Cardio is just more calorie expenditure. The same thing can be accomplished many ways, more effectively, and with less catabolism.

And YES THERE ARE STUDIES ON THIS. Do a search. Long distance runners have high cortisol and low T levels.

Nearly every pro bodybuilder and every person that I know that has done a bodybuilding show has used cardio to shave off fat. I know for a fact that David Henry (who just won his pro card) does not, but he is an exception not the rule. Some people do not need cardio and some do.

I think all this discussion about whether cardio is effective or not depends on the individual. You can show me study after study refuting or supporting cardio for fat loss and in the end I point to my personal study of actually doing it on a consistent basis... my conclusion: AM Cardio works for me.
 
The_Eviscerator said:


Nearly every pro bodybuilder and every person that I know that has done a bodybuilding show has used cardio to shave off fat. I know for a fact that David Henry (who just won his pro card) does not, but he is an exception not the rule. Some people do not need cardio and some do.

I think all this discussion about whether cardio is effective or not depends on the individual. You can show me study after study refuting or supporting cardio for fat loss and in the end I point to my personal study of actually doing it on a consistent basis... my conclusion: AM Cardio works for me.




Digging a hole with a spoon works too. But it isn't as effective as using a shoval.

And that goes for everybody.
 
OK, now bear with me for a second. I know that in the end all it comes down to is calories burned. So this CAN be done with diet alone, but some individuals do not seem to respond as well, which is not to say they do not respond at all. That being said, there could be another system at work that we yet to discover and document. One that i am thinking of is the adaptive responce of the body, in where it adapts the body to perform any given task efficiently. Running may force the body to adapt itself to that function of rapid movement by reducing excess weight which does not help in that movement, in this case it's fat. Anyway i'm just rambling here so no matter.
 
Nelson Montana said:





Digging a hole with a spoon works too. But it isn't as effective as using a shoval.

And that goes for everybody.

:rolleyes: Oh that's right... and the timing of your meals and macronutritional ratios doesn't matter either.

Nelson, I don't doubt that you have found some magical combo that works for you... but some of us aren't naturally skinny. Judging from your pictures... you were a very lean hard gainer. Cardio does not make sense for you. I, on the other hand, gain weight easily, and cardio does force my body to drop body fat.

Once again... to each their own.
 
gwl9dta4 said:
OK, now bear with me for a second. I know that in the end all it comes down to is calories burned. So this CAN be done with diet alone, but some individuals do not seem to respond as well, which is not to say they do not respond at all. That being said, there could be another system at work that we yet to discover and document. One that i am thinking of is the adaptive responce of the body, in where it adapts the body to perform any given task efficiently. Running may force the body to adapt itself to that function of rapid movement by reducing excess weight which does not help in that movement, in this case it's fat. Anyway i'm just rambling here so no matter.

well if all you do is run, then your body will actually get rid of all the muscle it's not using. and store fat, because fat is a lighter energy source to fuel long runs.

when you weight train and do cardio, you body adjusts to the agrregate total of the activities you do. if you wake up early, run, eat something, go to work, train, then work some more, then go to bed, your body will adapt to become good at:

waking up early, running, eating something, going to work, training, working some more, then going to bed.
 
am cardio

am cardio on empty stomach is the only way to get extremely lean. the anabolics take care of the muscle wasting part especially if you are taking a good dose of anavar, he he
 
Nelson asserts that cardio is simply more burned calories.

Observe:


Medline/PubMed Citation | Related Articles in PubMed | Download to Citation Matcher

Biochem. Soc. Trans. (2001) 29, (774–777) (Printed in Great Britain)


Uncoupling protein 3 biological activity
J. P. Giacobino1

Département de Biochimie Médicale, Centre Médical Universitaire, CH-1211 Genève 4, Switzerland

The hypothesis that uncoupling protein 3 (UCP3) is an uncoupling protein involved in heat dissipation is not unequivocally supported. An update of in vitro, ex vivo and in vivo studies testing this hypothesis is presented. Data are provided showing that exercise induces a fatty acid-dependent increase in muscle UCP3 mRNA in humans. The proposed positive correlation between glycolytic capacity and UCP3 level in various muscle-fibre types in the mouse is reassessed. Finally, an association between an intronic polymorphism of UCP3 and adiposity is reported.

In 1997, i.e. 21 years after the first report on uncoupling protein (UCP) 1, two novel members of the mitochondrial carrier family were discovered which displayed high ( 55%) amino acid sequence identity to UCP1. Based on these identities the two novel proteins were considered as possible UCPs and named UCP2 and UCP3 [1,2]. They were found to be highly expressed not only in rodents but also in humans; UCP2 in most tissues studied [1] and UCP3 mainly in skeletal muscle [2]. Since the discovery of UCP2 and UCP3 many experimental approaches have been developed to test the hypothesis that these proteins might be uncouplers of oxidative phosphorylation and, therefore, participate in heat dissipation. In this presentation we will focus on UCP3.

…and then later…

An intriguing aspect of the biological role of UCP3 is its possible interaction with glucose uptake. A relationship between UCP3 expression and glucose uptake has been suggested in both rodents and humans. Indeed, in transgenic mice overexpressing UCP3 in their skeletal muscle, an increased insulin sensitivity was observed [12]. Furthermore, in L6 myotubes, UCP3 transfection was found to increase glucose transport. This phenomenon was mediated by activation of the phosphoinositide 3-kinase-dependent pathway [16]. Moreover, overexpression of GLUT4 in mice caused an up-regulation of UCP3 in skeletal muscle [17]. In humans, the level of UCP3 mRNA in skeletal muscle of type II diabetic patients was lower than in control subjects [18]. There was also a positive correlation between UCP3 expression and whole-body insulin-mediated glucose utilization among diabetic patients [18]. These results suggest that glucose utilization or, in general, an overflow of substrate positively modulates UCP3 expression. They also suggest the opposite hypothesis, i.e. that UCP3 improves insulin sensitivity. If this were true then stimulation of UCP3 activity might help to correct insulin resistance.

A model of physical exercise in humans was used to investigate the effect of free fatty acids (FFA) and/or glucose oxidation on UCP3 mRNA level. This study was performed in collaboration with Dr P. Schrauwen's group in the Department of Human Biology, Maastricht University, Maastricht, The Netherlands. Seven healthy untrained men exercised at 50% O2max for 2 h and then rested for 4 h. Skeletal-muscle biopsies and blood samples were taken before and 0, 1 and 4 h after exercise. To modulate plasma FFA levels, the experiment was performed twice, once after a fasting period and once with glucose ingestion. UCP3 mRNA was determined by competitive reverse transcriptase PCR. In the fasted state, plasma FFA levels increased during exercise whereas they were unchanged after glucose ingestion. Also, fat oxidation was higher after fasting. In the fasted state UCP3 mRNA expression was increased 4 h after exercise. This increase was prevented by glucose ingestion. In conclusion, our data suggest that the up-regulation of UCP3 mRNA following exercise is not a direct effect of exercise, but rather an effect of increased FFA availability/oxidation and that during exercise there is no correlation in skeletal muscle between glucose utilization and UCP3 expression.


So the exercise causes...what? AN INCREASE IN FFA OXIDATION, and what is the UCP3 expression correlation to glucose utilization? NONE. It is a separate mechanism altogether. What could it be? Let's look...


UCP3 protein and fasting

Fasting was repeatedly shown to increase dramatically muscle UCP3 mRNA in rats and mice [4–6]. Two studies reported that the increase in rat UCP3 protein induced by fasting was less than half the increase of UCP3 mRNA in experiments carried out in parallel [15,20]. Our data confirmed these results which altogether indicated that, in fasting, the amplitude of UCP3 changes at the mRNA level are strongly damped down when the amount of protein is considered. This suggests a regulation of UCP3 expression at the translational level.
The phenomenon of the increase in UCP3 expression during fasting, called 'the fasting paradox', is therefore still observed, although at a lower level, when UCP3 protein instead of mRNA is measured.

The fasting paradox, it's called...I am looking into it. See that good evidence that the body actually specifically accelerates fatloss in a fasted state? Sure, other factors impact the degree, and I am perusing other studies to find those factors and to what degree they impact things.

UCP3 genetic studies

Up to now, the results of UCP3 genetic studies are rather controversial and only weak associations have been described between some UCP3 variants and obesity traits.
We have analysed, among 734 subjects from the Québec Family Study (QFS), a new GA repeat microsatellite located in UCP3 gene intervening sequence 6 (GAIVS6). Covariance analysis across genotypes for different adiposity, resting energy expenditure and glucose metabolism variables was undertaken with age and sex, plus body fat and body mass for non-adiposity phenotypes, as covariates. We found strong associations between GAIVS6 and body-mass index, percentage of body fat, the sum of six skin-fold thickness and leptin level. Homozygotes for the GAIVS6 240 bp alleles (15% frequency in the QFS) showed higher adiposity than subjects with the GAIVS6 238 bp allele (70% in QFS). These results suggest that some alleles of UCP3 might contribute to the aetiology of human obesity.
Altogether, the data presented support the view that UCP3 is thermogenic but the idea that it might be thermoregulatory is still controversial.


References
1 Boss, O., Samec, S., Paoloni-Giacobino, A., Rossier, C., Dulloo, A., Seydoux, J., Muzzin, P. and Giacobino, J. P. (1997) FEBS Lett. 408, 39–42
Medline 1st Citation 2nd
2 Fleury, C., Neverova, M., Collins, S., Raimbault, S., Champigny, O., Levi-Meyrueis, C., Bouillaud, F., Seldin, M. F., Surwit, R. S., Ricquier, D. and Warden, C. H. (1997) Nat. Genet. 15, 269–272
Medline 1st Citation 2nd

This study not only references, factually, the enhanced fatburning aspect of exercise after fasting, but also addresses the issue that I had brought up concerning some sort of mechanism by which fat was actually burned specifically with preference, while muscle was specifically preserved.

Also, consider the impact that exercise has on mitochondria…how do the mitochondria replicate themselves? When they get too large, they divide, that’s how. What would an enhanced mitochondria population result in?

THINK about that.

Exercise impacts these things other than calories:
VO2 max
a-v O2 difference
Mitochondria
Heart rate, both resting and during exercise
Blood Pressure
Metabolism

Cardio is NOT simply the expenditure of calories. Not by a long shot.
 
Last edited:
The_Eviscerator said:


Nice post Fukken!


Ooh, give me a break. You understand that post?

I'd like to hear your take on it.


And by the way. You think I came to my conclusions based solely on my personal experience? I've trained hundreds of people of all types and weight training caused more fat loss than cardio every time. You see, I used cardio in my training and my clients for years. But higher volume, high rep weight training works better.

This is the problem with this board. As long as some long complex evaluation is given, everyone is too intimidated to question it so they just agree. I've also ( too often) seen people being called "knowledgable" when they never had an original thought in their life. They just agree or disagree or post studies. I've even seen one so called "knowledgable" member post supplement definitions from a catalogue and he was heralded as being "brilliant!". It's laughable.

I'm not going to debate this post because it's been done to death.
 
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