Leaning forward on squats

[thedreamthief]

As the title reads, I tend to lean forward on my ascent during squats. Consequently, I am starting to have some pain in my knees.

I've watched a lot of videos and read a lot on squat form, but I haven't found a good answer to why I am leaning forward.

What could be causing me to lean to forward? Weak hips? Poor balance? Too much weight? and how do I correct that?

I've heard that curling your toes upward and concentrating on pushing through your heels will help. Does that sound like good advice (specifically the curling toes part)?

Would putting a 5LB plate under my toes / ball of my feet, to help shift the weight to my heels and help with form, sound like a good idea?

BTW, I do have Starting Strength ordered .. but it's going to be a little while before it's here.

 

[Kabeetz]

I am not a form expert but I have had squat form issues myself.

I think a great example of squat form would be at http://www.aceathlete.com/hatch
takes notes of the breathing, etc.

Relatively narrow stance, relatively narrow grip. You want to use a very flat soled shoe like lifting sneakers or chucks or similar, not running sneakers or shocks.

You want to lean back on your heels not forward on the balls of your foot.. on the ascent it can often help to stabilize you by pulling the bar down as you explode up.

And above all, if you can maintain perfect form with just the bar, but are leaning forward when adding weight... it's because you are going too heavy too soon. Roll back the weight and simultaneously work on strengthening your abs, lower back and general core area.

You will see improvement relatively quickly if you make form a priority over weight.

Again do not take this advice as gospel, I'm not in the position to preach about lifting technique, but these were tips that happened to work for me.

 

[Cynical Simian]

Try lowering the weight and seeing if the issue persists. If it doesn't you've found the main source of your problem, and the solution will just be to decrease the weight and work up from there.

Hip flexor stretches can make a huge difference, too. If you find that even with the lower weight you're getting "pulled forward" off your heels, tight hip flexors (and possibly hamstrings) are the likely culprit.

 

[H_T_]

having the bar set low and elbows wide can do this.

 

[coolcolj]

good mornings - do them!

 

[Sigbjørn]

Yeah, Good mornings may help alot if you don't already do them. Also, you might wanna try to strenghten your abs.

 

[lesarin]

I totally fucked my lower back. It's a long story but i have always had problems with leaning forward on the way down with medium weight. Sometimes i actually begin decenting by leaning forward before i even lower down my legs. I was all better, and on tuesday on an easy warmup set of 225 i felt this horrible pull. Its mainly due to my weak abs and huge gut.

Heavy weight i lean slightly forward on the way up, but that has never been a problem.

 

[stevius]

I have something for you to consider:

Lay flat on your back and bring your knees to your chest; notice where your hips happen to rotate. Now bring your knees to your shoulders. You may find that your hips don't move as much or later. Now bring your knees up then look at them toes and knees forward then legs and feet at almost right angles. You may find that your heels are further back with your legs at almost a right angle- this means your center of gravity is further back reducing forward leaning. Also, when your hips rotate the bar comes forward. It seems when I lose my back arch I'm less stable. The back should form a sort of J shape facing right >>> to keep the torso upright and the center of gravity forward. A back thats too straight or curved means an inverted J with the upper back coming forward to keep a center of gravity over the heels. Under a heavy load the forward tipping is accelerated so the toes and knees seem to compensate, which roughly translates to poor form.

If you've ever seen a baby squat to pick something up you'll notice they naturally adopt a very wide stance with the feet pointing outwards. They do ass to grass and their bodies are very upright.

I twigged on some time ago examining overhead lifts from strong olympic atheletes. Their upper bodies are totally upright and they sit between their legs. The heels seem to be poised right under the torso so that the bar travels more or less up and down in a straight line.

 

[wpolo05]

I dealt with the same issue one time. Try dynamic stretching for your hips/glutes/hams: kick backs, over/unders, leg wheel with light weight. Then lower the weight a bit and build back up to where you are now. Try a wider stance and focus on starting the descent by pushing your ass back. Also, "spread the floor" with your feet, ie push out with them.

You are probably leaning forward because your posterior chain is weak - leaning forward avoids making the posterior chain do work and transfers it to the quads and therefor the knee pain. So try to feel the weight get loaded onto your hips/glutes/hams when you drop into the hole - they should be doing most of the work down there. Try light weight 3x a week until you get it down.

The article below might give you some ideas.

http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=body_149squat

 

[thedreamthief]

Thanks for all of the advice. It's amazing how much technique is required for squatting. I will definitely try all of the advice listed here .. it seems that there are a lot of little things that I am doing wrong (possible too much weight, elbows wide, bar possibly too low, not stretching properly, wrong type of shoes). Also, it seems like I might need to work on hips, hams and abs a little more by incorporating some Good Mornings.

I haven't done squats since I posted ...but that's only been a couple of days. I will definitely keep you updated on how it is going.

Keep the advice coming!

 

[wrknonit]

Leaning your head back (looking up at the ceiling) may help too, sometimes a simple solution is best. Let us know how you get the issue resolved.

 

[kish]

The same thing was happening to me when I started squating. I used someones advice and decreased the weight to an amount I could handle better and get 10-12 reps in with without too much effort. I found it somewhat boring but it payed off. Eventually the motions became much more natural feeling to me. My form improved greatly and I stopped the leaning foward as I began going up with the weight.

 

[Cynical Simian]

I wouldn't recommend having a non-neutral neck position while squatting. If you want a cue like that, look up with your eyes rather than tilting your head.

As far as other stuff that might help, not to pull an FFQuads, but what are you wearing (all you said was "wrong type of shoe")? On your feet, that is. For squatting (and pretty much any other lift that's not performed on a bench), you want a shoe that doesn't have a lot of cushioning that will make you unstable. There was recently a thread on this, the gist of which was that most running shoes and cross-trainers are bad, while things like wrestling, indoor soccer, and of course Olympic lifting shoes are good.

 

[thedreamthief]

I wouldn't recommend having a non-neutral neck position while squatting. If you want a cue like that, look up with your eyes rather than tilting your head.

As far as other stuff that might help, not to pull an FFQuads, but what are you wearing (all you said was "wrong type of shoe")? On your feet, that is. For squatting (and pretty much any other lift that's not performed on a bench), you want a shoe that doesn't have a lot of cushioning that will make you unstable. There was recently a thread on this, the gist of which was that most running shoes and cross-trainers are bad, while things like wrestling, indoor soccer, and of course Olympic lifting shoes are good.

I wear Adidas cross training / running shoe. I don't remember the style / model of it. It was on sale for $25 and that's why I bought it. It has a fair amount of cushioning, and yes, I think the shoe is a contributing factor. I am going to be looking for a pair of Chuck Taylor's as the consensus is those are pretty decent lifting shoes without resorting to a specialty shoe.

Anyone have a good source for Chuck's? Some of these online stores are charging $45+ for them .. seems really expensive for such "low-tech" shoes.

 

[kiosk]

I had this problem and it went away after going ATF squats and also had really tight hamstrings, after a couple months of 2x day stretching I no longer lean forward (although a little lean forward is ok and actually helpful I think)

 

[dline]

instead of bunching my toes up i lifted my toes up and back like i was trying to touch my shins with them. I tried this way after i still felt like i was leaning forward. I felt that i was still able to cheat effectively enough with my toes still balled up in my kicks. I started working with my toes up on both conccentric and eccentric motions and kept my head neutral but used my eyes to look up. I haven't tried what HT stated with 'bar too low and elbows to wide'. I will focus on that tonight. Thanks HT!!

 

[Kabeetz]

Anyone have a good source for Chuck's? Some of these online stores are charging $45+ for them .. seems really expensive for such "low-tech" shoes.

My part time second job is at Nordstrom... 34.95 for the low top canvas I believe, 39.95 or 44.95 for the midtop... they are unisex so if they don't have them in men's u can get 'em off of the women's department.

You're not gonna find them much cheaper because canvas shoes are in style right now..although if you think that's too much for a sneaker you are truly a cautious spender my friend.

 

[thedreamthief]

My part time second job is at Nordstrom... 34.95 for the low top canvas I believe, 39.95 or 44.95 for the midtop... they are unisex so if they don't have them in men's u can get 'em off of the women's department.

You're not gonna find them much cheaper because canvas shoes are in style right now..although if you think that's too much for a sneaker you are truly a cautious spender my friend.

Are the mid's better than the low tops or vice versa? Just wondering if the mid's will limit ankle movement too much...

 

[Kabeetz]

Are the mid's better than the low tops or vice versa? Just wondering if the mid's will limit ankle movement too much...

I would get them because it laces up more securely and for me is more comfortable and IMO it kinda looks better but realistically you're not getting much improvement in the ankle support try on both, do some squatting movements and see what u like better.

 

[thedreamthief]

Just wanted to thank everyone so far for their advice. I haven't been lifting this week. I decided to take a week off to let my knees rest. As soon as I get back in the gym (probably Sunday) I will spend a good amount of time at the squat rack trying out the different pieces of advice everyone has so generously shared with me. I'll hopefully pick up some Chucks this weekend too.

 

[coolcolj]

start doing hip and ankle mobility work too, it really helps. makes squatting way easier and smoother

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=495189
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=04-057-training
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=06-101-training

 

[Powerbuilder333]

I wear Adidas cross training / running shoe. I don't remember the style / model of it. It was on sale for $25 and that's why I bought it. It has a fair amount of cushioning, and yes, I think the shoe is a contributing factor. I am going to be looking for a pair of Chuck Taylor's as the consensus is those are pretty decent lifting shoes without resorting to a specialty shoe.

Anyone have a good source for Chuck's? Some of these online stores are charging $45+ for them .. seems really expensive for such "low-tech" shoes.

I got my chuck's new on eBay for $32 including shipping.

 

[JPC]

You are probably leaning forward because your posterior chain is weak - leaning forward avoids making the posterior chain do work and transfers it to the quads and therefor the knee pain.

I believe you are mistaken. The opposite is true. Leaning forward is caused by weak quads. Leaning forward puts the emphasis on the posterior chain. Thats exactly what a good morning is. People tend to lean forward through the sticking point of the squat when their quads are weaker than their hips,hams,low back, letting the posterior chain do most of the work. If your posterior chain was weaker, then leaning forward would place it in an even more disadvantaged possition and you would continue to lean and fall on your face.

 

[coolcolj]

I believe you are mistaken. The opposite is true. Leaning forward is caused by weak quads. Leaning forward puts the emphasis on the posterior chain. Thats exactly what a good morning is. People tend to lean forward through the sticking point of the squat when their quads are weaker than their hips,hams,low back, letting the posterior chain do most of the work. If your posterior chain was weaker, then leaning forward would place it in an even more disadvantaged possition and you would continue to lean and fall on your face.

I believe it's because the hamstrings are the weak link, and your body tips forward to make the back and glutes pick up the slack.
The hammies rotate hip, so it makes sense if they are lagging in the movement, you tip forward

since GM's strengthen the muscles that tip you upright, then it's logical that they would help you stay upright when squatting. It did for me

I GM my heavy squats a lot, and my hammies are definitely the weak link. Much smaller than my qauds and glutes as well.
Which is funny becuase I can RDL over 300lbs for reps, but I can't GM that!

 

[JPC]

I believe it's because the hamstrings are the weak link, and your body tips forward to make the back and glutes pick up the slack.
The hammies rotate hip, so it makes sense if they are lagging in the movement, you tip forward

since GM's strengthen the muscles that tip you upright, then it's logical that they would help you stay upright when squatting. It did for me

I GM my heavy squats a lot, and my hammies are definitely the weak link. Much smaller than my qauds and glutes as well.
Which is funny becuase I can RDL over 300lbs for reps, but I can't GM that!

The glutes and hams do the same thing to the hip joint, they both extend the femur. So the glutes can't take over for weak hamstrings, if one is involved, the other is involved.

If the hamstrings were the weak link, tipping over would make it even worse. You have to understand what is happening when someone leans over coming up in the squat. They are doing it to TRANSFER more of the weight to the posterior chain, or hip extensors, and LESSEN the work placed on the knee extensors. If something was your weak link, why would you make it work even harder by bending over. You are bending over to remove weight from your weak link, or the quads in this case. Like I said before, if bending over is the result of weak posterior chain, you would not stop bending until the bar crashed to the ground cause the further you bend over, the harder it is on the posterior chain. Think people, think.

 

[coolcolj]

ok when someone has a frontsquat lower than 80% of their backsquat it's been said they have weak hamstrings

what makes one fail a frontsquat? You tip forward, you can't stay upright, so bar falls off shoulders etc becuase you try and use your back

what makes a backsquat higher than the frontsquat? You can use your back more

 

[JPC]

Front Squating involves the quads more, since you are more upright and the center of gravity is over the hips and away from the knees. When you fail by tipping forward, its because your quads can't do the job and you try to use more hip/hams. This doesn't work in the front squat because you lose the bar. You backsquat more than you frontsquat because you lean over more and the center of gravity is further from the hips so the glutes/hams do more of the work and together they are stronger than the quads. Your back is only a stabilizer in both, but has to work harder in the back squat to maintain a neutral or flexed spine. Your errectors don't "lift" the weight, they just keep your spine stable so your hips and legs can lift the weight.

I think the confusion here is understanding why someone tips forward. I never fail a squat because of tipping forward. I tip forward to SAVE a squat. If I could not maintain my uprightness because of a weak posterior chain and started to tip forward, it would not stop until the bar crashed on the pins. If this is indeed what happens to someone when they fail a squat, then yes indeed their posterior chain is the weakness. I don't think there are many people that do this though. Most I would guess, tip forward to SAVE a squat and finish with an ugly half squat/goodmorning. Their quads could not do their part extending the knees so they lean over letting the knees extend with less resistance, and let the posterior chain, good morning it up.

 

[thedreamthief]

I finally made it back to the gym this morning. I picked up a new pair of Chuck's that I believe did help with form. I did some stretching, incorporating some hip flexor stretches and did some good mornings.

I was more observant of my form and found out two things that hopefully might be able to help pinpoint my area of weakness.

First, I noticed that I tip forward during the latter part of my descent, shifting the weight towards my knees, quads and balls of my feet (my heels tend to come off the ground). Since I am already tipped forward when I am about to start my ascent, it just exacerbates the issue, making me tip forward even more on my ascent.
This is basically only allowing me to go to parallel or just below parallel.

Secondly, I decided to drop a lot of weight and force good form, no matter how much it hurt my ego to squat only 135lbs . I noticed that with the lighter weight, I was able to hold the arch in my lower back more effectively, and I did not tip forward. It also allowed me to go a little deeper on my squat.

So, it seems the major culprit may be me not holding the arch in my back. I believe all of the other suggestions did help quite a bit as well.

So, until I get my Starting Strength book, does the following sound correct for starting a squat? Chest out, abs tight and somewhat "puffed out", upper back straight, lower back arched (pushing abdomen out).

From what I described, what does everyone think I need to work on to help my squats? Is it solely a form issue? Or is it lack of strength in a certain area that is causing my form issue, which can be addressed with another exercise?

As a start, I need to stick with the light weight and keep a very tight reign on my form when adding weight.

Thanks so far for everyone's input. It's been a tremendous help.

 

[stevius]

From what I described, what does everyone think I need to work on to help my squats? Is it solely a form issue? Or is it lack of strength in a certain area that is causing my form issue, which can be addressed with another exercise?

Personally my hips always fail first, going for reps. The quads take a lot more punishment and they're good at doing half reps. For me, it's a choice between working on supporting muscles for reps with lower weight or low reps with high weight to hit the thighs more.

Anyway, I wonder, what fails first for you. You said back, so maybe Gm's, deads and Glut Ham raises to bring up your squat ability?

Have fun!

 

[perp69]

I was going to say could be as simple as you not arching and breathing properly therefore shifting center of gravity. I like to think of it like bowing the chest out.

Perp

 

[thedreamthief]

I was going to say could be as simple as you not arching and breathing properly therefore shifting center of gravity. I like to think of it like bowing the chest out.

Perp

What is the correct way to breathe during squats?

 

[perp69]

Take breath in and force down into the abdomen cavity (kind of takes practice). Seems to help keep the core tight and chest bowed with shoulders back. I never have issues with leaning on backsquats even when I miss a lift. I lean forward to dump it though.

Perp