Lateral Raises.....Volume or Heavy Weight?

[Johnny Auto Parts]

Which method do you believe is better for a good lateral shoulder head???

a heavy dumbell for 6-8 reps?

or a really light dumbell for 20-40 reps?

or something in between?

(i'm guessing most people do two arms at once)


I'm asking because I've noticed some of the board members who live and die by heavy weights use 8-10lb dumbells for upwards of 30 reps for this exercise.

 

[110%]

i think 20-40 reps sounds like one of the dumbest training methods in my opinion, though 6 on lateral raises doesnt sound real good either to me, i usually pick a weight where i can get around 10 getting a full range of motion that means going to where your top arms (around the tricep) are parallel to the ground, when i go hevier i usually cant use my shoulder strength to raise my arm this high and thus am not stressing my muscle fibers enough.

 

[gymtime]

20-40 reps? Oh good Lord.

I think what you've actually been reading is that because lat raises are very easy to cheat on, many of the wiser lifters use lighter weights and concentrate on form. Stick with 6-10 reps. Go heavy as you can, but don't sacrifice your form.

 

[JG1]

I pick a d-bell that will make me reach failure between 8-10 reps

 

[Johnny Auto Parts]

you know what, i'm an idiot.....when people were writing lateral raises 8x30, they probably meant 30lbs 8 reps....instead of the other way around......damn it.

anyway, what do you guys usually use for weight?

 

[bignate73]

15-20 lbs 4/2/2 tempo. does me in just fine.

 

[Island Son]

you know what, i'm an idiot.....when people were writing lateral raises 8x30, they probably meant 30lbs 8 reps....instead of the other way around......damn it.

I was just thinking, bench press... 5x225

20's and 25's, 3 sets 6-10 reps, depending on what came before.

 

[Distortion]

i use a barbell usually sets of 8. Heavy compound movements are the way to go

 

[FitnessFrk]

ditto to what bignate73 stated...

to build the medial head a longer time under tension (TUT) is the best to stimulate hyptertrophy.

 

[Phenotype X]

My shoulders respond well to the 10-12 rep range rather than the 6-8. The deltoid is a small muscle and I think it responds best to variations of heavy and fairly decent weight. So along with the pressing, keep perfect form and get in the 10-12 rep range with the lateral raises.

 

[LeviathanX]

I disagree with all the previous posts. The key to building muscle is overload. If you are doing 10-12 (or even 8-10) reps you aren't achieving overload, you need to add more weight. I'd say stick to 4-6 reps for lateral raises. Don't worry about ultra strict form... that'll simply limit the amount of weight you are doing and will set you up for injury.

 

[gymtime]

I disagree with all the previous posts. The key to building muscle is overload. If you are doing 10-12 (or even 8-10) reps you aren't achieving overload, you need to add more weight. I'd say stick to 4-6 reps for lateral raises. Don't worry about ultra strict form... that'll simply limit the amount of weight you are doing and will set you up for injury.

How does using strict form set you up for injury?

 

[bignate73]

I disagree with all the previous posts. The key to building muscle is overload. If you are doing 10-12 (or even 8-10) reps you aren't achieving overload, you need to add more weight. I'd say stick to 4-6 reps for lateral raises. Don't worry about ultra strict form... that'll simply limit the amount of weight you are doing and will set you up for injury.

overload meaning with regards only to weight? the key to building muscle is stimulation the muscle doesnt see the numbers on the dbells. so if the body percieves a new stressor, it will be forced to adapt. i would say that the percieved exertion on a set of strict, SLOW lateral raises is probably on par with a set of semi sloppy heavy fast lateral raises, but the risk factor is low for the controlled set.

now for personal accounts: ive done both and "personally" found that a lower weight was superior for injury prevention, muscle control and overall development.

"if you cant stop the weight at any point in the rep...then you arent lifting it, YOURE THROWING IT."

 

[gymtime]

"if you cant stop the weight at any point in the rep...then you arent lifting it, YOURE THROWING IT."

Excellent. Nate - I'm stealing this. Just letting you know.

 

[LeviathanX]

No... I don't think you understand. First of all, I intentionally used the word 'ultra' when describing strict form. Some people follow such a strict form that it puts their body in an unnatural position. This, in turn, not only restricts the amount of weight you can lift, but also sets your body up for injury because you are not letting your body move naturally with the flow of the movement.

As far as overload is concerned. I was speaking of muscle overload which intuitively means muscle stimulation. This is the entire idea behind HIT training.

It seems like you guys see in black and white. There is only sloppy form, and there is only ultra strict form. However, realize that a technique is considered 'strict' as long as you are maximizing stimulation of the intended muscle group. Yes, a slightly less strict form will rely on other muscles somewhat, but this is more than made up for in the greater amount you can lift.

I suggest you guys go read the Max-OT training manual at www.ast-ss.com and learn more about this style of training. It is very comprehensive and goes a good deal into the physiological science behind what I've just said.

 

[JOKER47]

"if you cant stop the weight at any point in the rep...then you arent lifting it, YOURE THROWING IT."

Good point to live (lift) by.......


Joker

 

[Realgains]

Lateral will do little for shoulder mass. Do heavy overhead pressing bro and maybe some heavy STRICT upright rows if your shoulder joints can handle them

 

[LeviathanX]

Upright rows are primarily hitting the back (trapezius), not the deltoid. I agree, though, that upright rows are a good mass-building exercise. Make sure you do them correctly, many people injure themselves using upright rows.

As far as eliminating lateral raises. I don't think that is a good idea because shoulder presses - although they hit the entire deltoid group - tend to focus more of the mass development on the front deltoid. Lateral and bent-over lateral raises are important for overall shoulder development. I've seen many a guy that only did presses and their shoulders curve forward because the rear deltoids aren't as developed.

 

[CDogg-vic]

I found both worked best. Pyramid up to a heavy weight for 4-6 reps and do 4 sets, then work your way down to exhaust them.

 

[LeviathanX]

I disagree again. Fatiguing your muscles is a common myth (like supersets) that people follow thinking it'll build stronger muscles. The fact of the matter is that it is overload (not fatigue) that makes your muscles grow. Therefore, I'd warm-up, do a few weight acclimation sets, and then do 2-3 sets at 4-6 reps. Then move on to another exercise.

If you don't believe me, try it sometime. I think you'll find you get better results if you focus on putting all your efforts into the main sets, rather than saving some for the fatigue sets.

 

[110%]

I disagree again. Fatiguing your muscles is a common myth (like supersets) that people follow thinking it'll build stronger muscles. The fact of the matter is that it is overload (not fatigue) that makes your muscles grow. Therefore, I'd warm-up, do a few weight acclimation sets, and then do 2-3 sets at 4-6 reps. Then move on to another exercise.

If you don't believe me, try it sometime. I think you'll find you get better results if you focus on putting all your efforts into the main sets, rather than saving some for the fatigue sets.

i think max-ot has you brainwashed, your words sound like the exact table of contents for the max-ot program over at ast-ss.com, i though the 4-6 reps range looked good and intense, but i only got to chapter 4 and realized alot of things i disagree with. first all they do is keep repeating overload, overload, max-ot maximizes...., max-ot maximizes...they say ppl that buy flaxseed oil it is pointless and a waste of money (i can show you the quote if u dotn remember reading that), they dont use any lactic acid buildup to advantage ever which would allow maximus stress of all muscle fibers if they did sometimes, they say burnouts are pointless and muscle memory (sounded like a bunch of bs to me) sounded pretty lame to me, the list goes on and on. i mean you should make some opinions for yourself b/c you are stating the exact same things that they teach and if you just rely on those principles your never gonna know if you could be getting better results. do u really think fatigue is pointless for the muscle? i think it can be pretty beneficial.

 

[LeviathanX]

110%... I believe what AST-SS says because it has worked for me. I've tried several routines (high rep, low rep, high frequency, low frequency, superset, trisets, dropsets, pyramid schemes etc.), and Max-OT has brought the best results. I'm not saying it'll bring everyone the best results, but at least they back up what they say with at least an inkling of science.

I mean... take a look at Jeff Willet. He doesn't take any gear, and he is a monster. He follows Max-OT to the 'T' and look where it got him. I know there is a lot of advertising and promotion on their site, but I ignore that and look for the explanation behind the training. From what I've seen it's solid.

Let me ask you. Why do you think fatiguing your muscles will make them grow? If you are fatiguing them, you are necessarily using less weight than if you were overloading them. Therefore, you're simply pumping lactic acid into your muscles which does nothing for muscle growth. Your muscles get bigger because they are damaged and grow as they are being repaired. Why not just focus on lifting a heavier weight, than saving some left for fatigue sets? If you can provide some evidence to convince me otherwise I'll gladly listen, but I follow Max-OT not because I'm brainwashed, but because it works.

 

[bignate73]

why is it that everyone asks for studies to disprove gym science or programs perpetuated by supplement companies. i thought we had all learned our lesson from muscle and fiction. there are plenty of professional journals that to studies on hypertrophy and strength, and those studies tend to be vastly different and tightly controlled. not just personal experience or what works for me.

the word 'overload' is being used way to freely here.

so its all about the number?

what about intensity? can that be measured quantitatively?

to the muscle, whats the difference between 25lbs and 75lbs?
nothing. its all about the number of fibers you can recruit and stimulate to grow. there are many ways to do this, one being over'load' the muscle with weight. the body will attempt to adapt regardless of the number on the weight, but the intensity one works at is the key.

and if its "microtear" or muscle damage you are looking for for growth.

try a nice slow set of 12 eccentric lateral raises(just the negative). take about 6 seconds to lower the weight and call me in the morning. want to talk muscle damage, there it is. guarantee you arent using the weight you would for 4-6 "heavy" raises.

 

[LeviathanX]

Max-OT is essentially HIT training. This type of training has been advocated since Mentzer's time, so I don't think it is a new 'program perpetuated by supplement companies'.

I don't know about these 6 second eccentric lateral raises. I just don't see how this will provide better muscle growth/microtears than 4-6 heavy reps using 2-3 seconds. I mean, there is no doubt you'll be sore after the slow reps, but remember there are slow-twitch and fast-twitch muscle fibers. I think with your method you are going to be hitting some of the outer muscle fibers, but to really stimulate those fibers deep down you're going to need some heavy weight.

Why do you think everyone advocates heavy presses, deadlifts, and squats as the main exercises to build muscle? Very few advocate light presses, deadlifts, or squats using slow rep schemes.

 

[bignate73]

the majority of the "studies" that most refer to for hypertrophy and strength use slow rep schemes. most definitely slower than any of the people training use. 4/2/0 or 3/2/1 at the fastest 2/2/0. most of these power movements that use heavy weights will take barely a second for the neg and positive (maybe longer on the positive depending on the load). so generally anything slower than that is considered "super slow"(no reference to superslow training). the reason for the lighter weights is for control and safety. quite frankly, most people dont like to be in pain for such a long duration. and as for "depth" of fibers used, hands down, you dig way "deeper" into your stores on a set like this as some fibers fatigue, others take over. type1 or 2, i dont care, they all get killed.

im not advocating this as the only way, but it is the rep tempos used in most strength and conditioning studies.

 

[LeviathanX]

Rep tempo has nothing to do with what type of routine you are doing. Whether you are doing a high rep scheme, or a low rep scheme (like Max-OT or the countless other ones out there) I use a 2 second concentric/4 second eccentric/0 pause tempo. I'm not saying you should be grabbing the biggest weight you can possibly handle and throw it around without any control. I'm saying that you should grab the biggest weight that you can handle and still have good (notice NOT perfect) form.

But hey, if your system works for you more power to ya. It doesn't really matter in the end as long as you are growing.

 

[thebigchief]

back to the lateral raises question - most raise exercises should be performed in the 10 - 15 rep range. And these types of exercises are excellent to superset together. Shoulders will respond well to these types of supersets. Shoulder joints can be delicate and very suseptible to injury. Heavy presses are ok, but lighter weight should be used in raise movements.


BigChief

 

[Phenotype X]

to the muscle, whats the difference between 25lbs and 75lbs?
nothing. its all about the number of fibers you can recruit and stimulate to grow. there are many ways to do this, one being over'load' the muscle with weight. the body will attempt to adapt regardless of the number on the weight, but the intensity one works at is the key.

I couldn't have explained it any better. It's all about the muscle fibers recruited.

 

[LeviathanX]

back to the lateral raises question - most raise exercises should be performed in the 10 - 15 rep range. And these types of exercises are excellent to superset together. Shoulders will respond well to these types of supersets. Shoulder joints can be delicate and very suseptible to injury. Heavy presses are ok, but lighter weight should be used in raise movements.


BigChief

Blanket statements like this is why I'm forced to present another point-of-view. Tell me BigChief, where did your information concerning raises come from? If its personal experience, fine... say so. If it is from scientific research, provide some articles.

 

[Welsh power house]

6-8 reps

decent form

But the real delt growth comes from d/b or b/b military presses, bench presses and back work(deads, rows..)

 

[the nature boy]

good thread.

 

[Your_Moms_Kneepads]

I do one arm at a time while holding on to an upright/pole/ect. and lean slightly into the direction that I am going to raise. If you go too strict you will never use any weight that is worthwhile.
Use decent technique and get the delt to actually work.

 

[bignate73]

I do one arm at a time while holding on to an upright/pole/ect. and lean slightly into the direction that I am going to raise. If you go too strict you will never use any weight that is worthwhile.
Use decent technique and get the delt to actually work.

the "lean" thing was thought to bring about a fuller range of motion but actually just puts more stress in the top portion of the ROM. if you lean towards the pole, it will put more stress early on in the ROM. or go with cables to get tension throughout.

using lighter weight or going too strict IS worthwhile since this is an isolation movement with a very large moment arm and can place a great deal of torque on the shoulder capsule. couple that with using heavy weight and "decent" form which will bring the synergists into the movement even more and you risk forming faulty movement patterns, wearing on the joints and strengthening postural deviations. BTW, if you know your threshold for breaking form, the delt does actually work and you can still progressively overload the muscle without risking injury or using synergists more.