ketogenic diets- advice please

[Max Expansion]

im eating a good sized steak every day, plenty of italian ham with the fat left on, and then lots of fish all covered in extra virgin olive oil.

however, the only real source of fat i am getting is the olive oil. i stopped doing the cheese and cream style stuff as i thought it would be too calorific or would impede ketosis due to the lactase.

what other good sources of fat are there apart from the flax seed oils and olive oils.

should i really be staying away from the cheese- i seem to have stalled diet wise and yet i am being seriously strict and doing plenty of cardio

cheers 1000 for all the advice (and to the others)

Basically what I mean is avoid lean meats (i.e. turkey, tuna etc.) and if you eat them, make sure you have fat to go along with them at a meal, high protein/low fat meals are a no-no.

the comment about rabbit poisoning is correct, the native americans found that if they ate too much rabbit (since they subsisted on a meat only diet) that they got sick because it was a lean meat, they weren't getting enough fat and so they would lose ketotic efficiency as you can really only burn so much of your own fat at once, without an external fat source you feel ill.

Stick with the fattier meats as much as possible, chicken and fish are good, but make sure you include some red meat in there (ground beef is excellent, and i mean the cheap high-fat stuff, not ground round or sirloin). and if you don't get enough fat from your meat from a meal... just take a shot or two of olive oil and chase that with some omega-3's, btw this is a great opportunity to include plenty of healthy fats as well.

the thing you need to remember is, if you start feeling tired this means you need to eat, your appetite is no longer your clue to eat (well it is, but it's less noticeable) so eat if you are tired and don't know why, trust me, you'll feel better.

 

[mattdan]

Cheese is fine as long as you don't over do it. Remember, as long as you don't exceed your carb goal you're fine no matter where they came from. Cheese does have some carbs. On days you work out and/or cardio you can up the carbs a bit.

It's really important to not get bored on the diet.

If the cheese plugs you up, just take some sugar free fiber with plenty of water.

 

[Max Expansion]

so is the reason that the atkins diet suggests one limits the amount of cheese, due to the calory content rather than the effect it will have on ketosis.

the kind of cheese i eat is full fat, almost no carb cheese, like real english cheddar and real buffallo milk moza.

this stuff contain like no carbs so by the sound of it it should be ok.

i was just concerned about something 1000 said about lactic acid in cheese impeding ketosis

cheers

Cheese is fine as long as you don't over do it. Remember, as long as you don't exceed your carb goal you're fine no matter where they came from. Cheese does have some carbs. On days you work out and/or cardio you can up the carbs a bit.

It's really important to not get bored on the diet.

If the cheese plugs you up, just take some sugar free fiber with plenty of water.

 

[mattdan]

Full fat cheese is the way to go - period. Never eat low fat cheese.

Have you read the Atkins book? I did and I really don't remember reading that, but it's been several years since I read it.

It gets tricky to keep the diet from getting boring so the bottom line is do whatever works for you.

Also - go to your local drug store and get some ketosis sticks. That is the definitive way to make sure you're not eating too many carbs. As long as they show you're in ketosis, you're fine.

 

[BigCracker]

If you've never done ketosis, you are missing out. IMO, It is, hands down, THE most effective way to burn fat while sparing muscle, that being said, it has its drawbacks.

Drawback #1 - Working out loses all its flavor. Everything is a struggle in the gym and it pretty much takes all the joy out of working out. Training is tough even with a targeted ketogenic diet where pre and post workout carbs are allowed.

#2 - You will miss carbs.
#3 - You will not want to eat, will have zero appetite.
#4 - Leaves me feeling foggy and emotionally flat especially in the beginning.

That being said it is very effective, even for short periods of time. I'm ectomorphic but I do have some stubborn fat around my waist and love handle area that i was able to get rid of with ketosis in just 2 weeks (approx 7 pounds, strength was IMPROVED following ketosis).

here's some answers to your questions.

1. The type of ketogenic diet they use for epileptics is not recommended. That protocol calls for something like 92% of your calories to come from fats with 7% from protein, and <1% from carbs. Something like 80% fat cals and 20% protein is best for someone trying to spare muscle and burn fat.

2. Eating as much protein is not a good idea but you can eat as much meat as you want (red meat, bacon, fish, eggs, chicken anything that doesnt have carbs really (i.e, beef jerky). Like i said around 20% protein is good if you are trying to keep muscle and train while on the diet.

3. Cheese, now cheese supposedly doesn't have any carbs, but it actually does have a very small amount of lactose i believe. And for some reason it always reduces my level of ketosis when i eat it. Not to mention the fact that if you are prone, cheese will constipate you like nothing in this world. That being said I often crave cheese and do not limit my intake of it during ketosis.

4. I didn't end up needing any fiber for my first round of ketosis, but yes fiber pills do exist in chewable and pill form (metamucil makes one) and these are recommended as the drink mixes (i.e. citrucel, metamucil) have artificial sweetener, maltodextrin, and citric acid and will generally make you feel like shit during keto.

5. Artificial sweeteners, citric acid, etc. I wouldn't worry too much about them "slowing down" ketosis, they will temporarily reduce the amount of ketosis but it's not significant enough to affect your goals over a period of a couple weeks or more. You will avoid these things however, because aspartame can trigger the insulin response, and without any sugar being added to your bloodstream you will instantly feel the effects (no energy, mental fog). I only drink tea and water while in keto, once i had a diet cherry vanilla dr. pepper, never again. Also if you are trying to transition into ketosis, drinking diet drinks will only make everything much harder for you.

Cardio will be more difficult in ketosis, i recommend doing it for about 30 mins or so but reduce your resistance or speed (i.e. if you run on the treadmill at 6 mph reduce it to 5 or 4) because you won't have the same intensity, you can actually do lower intensity cardio for a longer period of time on keto however. Honestly I didn't even need to do cardio as much in keto, i only did it maybe 2x a week and had great results.

I recommend that you get Ketostix or an off-brand of ketone urinalysis strips, they will let you know if your diet is appropriate and what level of ketosis you are in, don't let the level bother you too much as it switches depending on whether or not you just ate a high fat meal etc. but use it to check periodically to make sure you are in ketosis. After you get used to the diet you can really tell whether your are in keto just by feel generally, but at first the strips help, but they are not 100 percent necessary.

Also if you are going to do it for more than 2 weeks, consider a targeted ketogenic diet (TKD) , or a cyclical ketogenic diet (CKD), both allow carbs at selected times to maintain workout intensity (somewhat) and your sanity. Search for them in the diet section on these boards you will find tons of info.

Hope this helps.

Welp, no real need for me to chime in here. Who the fuck is this guy? He needs to post up more often. Good 411.

All I have to add is that there is a book I recommend called "Sliced" by Negrita Jayde that is not only an excellent source of 411 for bodybuilding nutrition and the different phases of the dieting process, it also has a cycle carb diet that seems to be much more bodybuilder-friendly. It actually modifies the CKD where you go low carbs for 3 days (in order to get into ketosis) and is followed by 3 moderate carb intake days. Advantages are that you won't feel like shit in the gym as much as with the CKD and you can schedule it so you don't work on the days that you really feel like shit. My tolerance for assholes in the workplace is minimal on low carbs, so if I can schedule my diet in a way that I only feel like shit on my days of from work life is much easier.

 

[Max Expansion]

yeah the reply was sick- definatley one im going to remember

i guess perhaps i have been going about my diet the wrong way. i was trying to kinda restrict the calories. so i was eating like 90 percent lean meet, ham, chicken etc, with a fair amount of olive oil- but i wasnt really eating much in the way of fat.

i was going easy on the butter and stuff, and completely cut out the cheese, as i thought what is the point of doing something so calorific when one is already cutting carbs almost completely. i know that fat fuels ketosis, but full fat cheese like italian creamy mozarella and british chedder and parmasan are so calorific, it just seemed dumb.

i guess my question is whether i would benefit from having this kind of full fat, yet very calorific dairy in my diet. is cream cheese, cheddar and parmasan the way to go. (ps i also read that cheese can stall ketosis)

any opinions

 

[Nelson Montana]

I didn't read the whole thread and maybe should wait until I have the time to elaborate, but I think the keto diet is horseshit. It's very unhealthy and not very effective. Of course someone will always say IT WORKED FOR ME. But if it worked it was most likely due to eating less calories and not being in ketosis (which is catabolic).

Anyone ever see the Ronnie Coleman video where he's on the keto diet and eating just chicken breasts -- with barbacue sauce! He obvioulsy overlooked the fact that BBQ sauce is 90% sugar. But hey, he looked awesome! Does that mean the keto diet works? No. It means the training and drugs and genetics and high protein lower calorie intake worked.

I know this won't be a popular answer because it's natural to think that the next approach is the one that will work. And if it's based on a complicated system and you have the will power to do it the hope and belief is that it must work. And it will. But lots of ways will work. Thousands of guys have gotten more ripped than you'll ever hope to be without going into ketosis. Being in ketosis is unnecessary and ultimately not preferable, but I'm sure you want to follow this through so I wish you the best of luck.

 

[BigCracker]

Nelson is right. I think it's better to surf right along the edge of actual ketosis a few days max before consuming a maintenance level of carbs a few days. By bouncing back and forth like this you will spare more muscle and after a few practice runs you will be able to time your weight loss by the week. Conventional diets never got me the peeled look needed to win a show. Once I dialed in cycling in and out of ketosis not only could I time my weight loss, but I learned how to control my water weight in a way that I could be as dry as I needed to be on contest day. Basically I could time myself to look my best on Saturday AM's (which is usually when pre judging is)every week, week after week. I've had other guys follow this diet and it eliminated a lot of the guesswork in peaking on contest day. I'm still amazed how some guys will diet their asses off for 12 weeks and the last week before the show they'll do this pre-contest voodoo of sodium loading/depletion, carb depletion/loading, diuretics, etc. By doing this I feel they are just rolling the dice with their hard work and hoping to get a 7 or 11. Personally I want better odds than that as opposed to hoping some hocus pocus type shit makes me look my best when I need to. After doing shows where I looked better 3 days later, I felt that I needed to focus on looking my absolute best when I needed to because how you look the days before or after the show doesn't mean a thing.

 

[mattdan]

Sorry Nelson but this is the one time I'm going to flat out disagree.

Keto works - period.

The real reason Americans are so fat is not fat - it's sugar, white flour and processed foods.

Atkins did NOT have it all right. He made mistakes for sure. If you want to really fill in the holes and understand keto better, read sugarbusters.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Sorry Nelson but this is the one time I'm going to flat out disagree.

Keto works - period.

The real reason Americans are so fat is not fat - it's sugar, white flour and processed foods.

Atkins did NOT have it all right. He made mistakes for sure. If you want to really fill in the holes and understand keto better, read sugarbusters.

I never said it didn't work and I never said people don't get fat from sugar so there's no disagreement.