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ProtienFiend
New member
Tweakle said:
Too continue, JK... Do you ever read anything anyone replies with in the threads you start either?
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Too continue, JK... Do you ever read anything anyone replies with in the threads you start either?
cardiomann
Banned
JKurz1 said:
How are they a bitch to get back??? All it takes is well thought out cutting diet and cardio! No offense, but I think you need some psychiatric help. I hope the best for you bro.
JKurz1
Banned
I got my help right here bro......and Im getting there..up 20lbs, most Ive gained in friggn years....Itll be a slow process...why am I so conerned with abs???? Who cares? 99% of the world has them covered in fat and I'm learningit's much harder to have them show up a little, but be a mass monster. Will I ever be one? I hope so. I guess now since I have my diet in check I really need help with a training routine. Forget the two-a-days. I am just a weak mutha. When I was 40lbs heavier, I used 100lbs dbells on incline. Now I use 60's....is this relevant? Since I have been accustomed to this sort of weight, light light compared to most, is it possible for me to get strong again? What do I need to do? COncentrate on the big lifts, take more rest? Give up the cardio?
SgtSlaughter
New member
Jkurz... that was one of the best posts I've seen from you. Seriously.JKurz1 said:
... as long as those questions where rhetorical
JKurz1
Banned
Also, I just need to eat...I know that, but with the difinition stay a little bit? If it's clean cals, there is just no way I can totally get skinny fat, right? Help me solve some of these problems. Bloat kills me, prob. from raw oats. Just got an enzyme, hope that works. I am going to shoot for 40g of protein 60g of carbs in each of my 7 meals.........forget the source, it'll just be clean. eggs, dead animals, dairy........sweet pots, brown rice, oats, rice cakes, and more oats.
Will the 250mg/week cause water retention?
Will the 250mg/week cause water retention?
SgtSlaughter
New member
uh oh.JKurz1 said:
You're resorting back to question mania bro
Don't you already have a routine? (regarding the 5 day split you asked)
The definition may stay a little... keep diet in check and it will... i know you won't cheat, lol.
No, you won't get skinny fat... you'll be putting on size in the right places... a little coating in some others... but it should be all proportional since you're training heavy. Lift big, eat big... be big.
I dont' know about the Test and water retention. I use AIFM, although i'm noticing now with... (well i've slacked on clean diet a bit) bulking doesn't keep the cheat water off, lol... but it's good for a boost in natty test so... hey why not? I got it back during my cut and still have some left (May i believe).
I'm off to do some light cardio before my deep tissue.
JKurz1
Banned
SO what, I have questions...I am full of them.......didnt think that was a problem. When are you cutting again? That word can't enter my head for a looooong time.....I know you can't sculpt a pebble so I need to get back to fighting weight before I even talk abot it....ill get there, as long as I stay out of the friggn mirror and off the scale.
JKurz1 said:
Dude, you need to take a vacation. You know that old saying- 'De-load To Re-Load'? It applies to your mind as well. You know you've been going up against the grindstone and you want to bust out of it like Escape From Alcatraz. Fortunately for you, you're not presently incarcerated (or am I wrong here?
) The power to transform yourself begins in your head. Remove yourself from the scene of battle and take the time to think about what got you big in the first place. Breathe easy and re-focus your mental energies for the marathon, not the sprint. Victory comes from planning.Jkurz, here is a 5 day split I think you could live with that focuses on core lifts, progessive overload, etc. It also has a bit of variety which I know you desire (me too). A nice calorie surplus and 8 hours of sleep each night are pre-requisites however. I'm also not sure if you've deloaded or done a strategic deconditon lately, but it probably is in line if not. Basically (and this is nothing breathtaking, or remarkable) start off with a weight you can easily do for 5 sets of 5 reps. You would be surprised at the amount of fatigue you can actually apply to you system even though you aren't touching failure and could use more weight. Ramp up the weights for 4-6 weeks and then drop the lifts to 3x3 when you hit a wall and when failure starts showing up. So long as failure doesn't show up in weeks 1-3, its a sure fire bet that fatigue has accumulated and a deload is likely in line. Then keep running the 3x3 until you hit the wall again. Then come back and see us.
Re diet questions: I know you want to stay lean, but lets face it man! You already know exactly how to get lean. You just happened to diet indefinetly and eventually the body needs to convert those amino acids to energy because the cut was so long (a few years I thought I had read?). Anywho, i'm not gonna suggest eating shit foods, but for breakfast I just had 6 eggs, 6 pancakes with awesome syrup, a bran muffin, 2 large glasses of milk, and 6 sausauges. Damn was it ever good.
The routine is below and is something I would/have used with good success.
Monday
-Squats 5x5
-Power Cleans 5x5
-Pullups 3 sets
Tuesday
-Flat Bench 5x5
-Standing BB Press 5x5
-Dips 3 sets
Wednesday
-Front Squats 5x5
-Deadlifts 5x5
-Weighted Abs 3 sets
Thursday
-Rest!
Friday
-Incline Bench 5x5
-Decline Bench 5x5
-Skull Crushers 3 sets
Saturday
-Squats 5x5
-Rows 5x5
-Db Curls 3 sets
Sunday
-Rest!
Re diet questions: I know you want to stay lean, but lets face it man! You already know exactly how to get lean. You just happened to diet indefinetly and eventually the body needs to convert those amino acids to energy because the cut was so long (a few years I thought I had read?). Anywho, i'm not gonna suggest eating shit foods, but for breakfast I just had 6 eggs, 6 pancakes with awesome syrup, a bran muffin, 2 large glasses of milk, and 6 sausauges. Damn was it ever good.
The routine is below and is something I would/have used with good success.
Monday
-Squats 5x5
-Power Cleans 5x5
-Pullups 3 sets
Tuesday
-Flat Bench 5x5
-Standing BB Press 5x5
-Dips 3 sets
Wednesday
-Front Squats 5x5
-Deadlifts 5x5
-Weighted Abs 3 sets
Thursday
-Rest!
Friday
-Incline Bench 5x5
-Decline Bench 5x5
-Skull Crushers 3 sets
Saturday
-Squats 5x5
-Rows 5x5
-Db Curls 3 sets
Sunday
-Rest!
JKurz1 said:
Okay well here is the workout I am doing today:
-Squats
bar x 5 warmup
135 x 5 warmup
185 x 5 warmup
225 x 5,5,5
245 x 3
185 x 8
-Standing Overhead Press
bar x 5 warmup
95 x 5 warmup
135 x 5,5,5
155 x 3
95 x 8
-Pullups
bodyweight x 5,5,5,5,5
-Pushdowns
3-5 sets in the 10-15 rep range.
All in all its nothing fancy or magical, just basic stuff. Lately i've been including a heavier triple, and a back-off 8 rep set instead of two additional sets of 5 reps.
As for you, keep the weight the same throughout and add weight each week.
anotherbutters
New member
Good suggestion 36drew. JK, if you follow something like this and don't add in any fluff exercises, and you're eating enough, you will LOVE the results after just a few weeks!
Using squats as an example, with a squat max of 135x5, I'd do this:
Week 1 Monday: bar x 5, 65x5, 85x3, 105x5x5
Week 2 Monday: bar x 5, 65x5, 95x3, 115x5x5
Week 3 Monday: bar x 5, 75x5, 105x3, 125x5x5
Week 4 Monday: bar x 5, 75x5, 115x3, 135x5x5
Week 1 should be easy, week 2 a little harder, weeks 3-4 where you're matching your PR. Add 5-10lbs per week thereafter.
Using squats as an example, with a squat max of 135x5, I'd do this:
Week 1 Monday: bar x 5, 65x5, 85x3, 105x5x5
Week 2 Monday: bar x 5, 65x5, 95x3, 115x5x5
Week 3 Monday: bar x 5, 75x5, 105x3, 125x5x5
Week 4 Monday: bar x 5, 75x5, 115x3, 135x5x5
Week 1 should be easy, week 2 a little harder, weeks 3-4 where you're matching your PR. Add 5-10lbs per week thereafter.
JKurz1 said:
JKurz, if you want to take 2 grams of test with some slin/gh and whatever bizzare myostatin gene altering drugs todays goons are taking, you can follow a regular split, but trust me when I say it isn't the best way to go! Take a trip to a library or university and flip through some books and journals written by doctors and researchers. The consensus is that this is the way to train! Bodybuilding is the only remaining sport to embrace this concept!
JKurz1
Banned
DID U READ MY FUCKING POST???????????/ damn it...Im tired of selective reading....I said it wasnt a freaking slam and it looked good......I was just inquiry why bbers dont train this way.....and why 90% of the bros who do train this way are much more concerned with brute stregth than sculption a good look body.....
JKurz1 said:
I read your post buddy. You need to relax. I simply stated the reasons as to why professional (*elite*) bodybuilders don't train this way. You take a shitty stimulus and multiply it by drugs gallore and it doesn't matter how you train. That is simply the way things go my friend.
The reason we focus on strength is because strength drives muscular gains. If you go from benching 135 for 5 to 185 for 5 you have gained strength and likely a lot of muscle too.
If you need examples, just look at someone like tweakle. Diet is what determines abs (primarily), but building muscle depends on adding pounds to the bar each week.
anotherbutters
New member
There's a reason for that - this stuff ain't complicated36drew said:
JK, there are plenty of ways of skinning a cat. This is just one of them. Have you looked at biggt's journal? Every month or so, he'll pick some big compound movements and work at getting better at them in a certain set/rep range. Then he'll pick a different set and focus on getting better at them. But all the time, he's pushing himself to get better at the big compound movements. There are lots of ways of arranging them, hence there is no ONE routine that's better than all the others.
Set yourself a goal of adding 50lbs to your bench, row and OHP, and 100lbs to your squat and deadlift. As long as you eat enough, you WILL look a lot better once you've acheived that.
JKurz1
Banned
now we are talkin! Good answer....but those rotuines that the pros use and many others burn more cals then and there, but overall more mass (muscle) leads o more calories burned overall...I'm with you....how long is your routine? 1hr? Who's got the good stats on this board? Bf%, strength, etc...the verall pakage....
anotherbutters
New member
Don't worry about what pro's are doing. Your workouts should be matched to your needs. Right now, you should be building a solid base of strength by getting better at the big compound movements. Don't worry about how long the workouts are or how many calories you burn during them. Just get better at the big movements.
Here's a good read about matching the training to the trainee as he/she goes through different stages of development:
http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/pathofchampions.html
Here's a good read about matching the training to the trainee as he/she goes through different stages of development:
http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/pathofchampions.html
T
The Shadow
Guest
ProtienFiend said:
bbers were at their smallest typically between shows, Arnold would drop down to 200 or so and look like shit, then he (and everyone else) would hit the gear and train for the upcoming O.
You CANNOT eat(at maximum efficiency) to get lean and eat to get massive at the same time - ie - you can't gain fat AND LOSE fat simultaneously.
Diet is paramount - above al esle - gear included.
Gear does not help you get lean.
BiggT
New member
JK....you'd be surprised how many calories you burn doing high volume on compound lifts, multiple times a week.....I know it doesn't look like much on paper, man, but try it......in one workout Squat 5x5 with the same weight and do a backoff set of 8, then repeat with flat bench and rows all on the same day and see how wasted you feel, how hungry you'll be, and how you'll sleep at night like a baby.
On paper, FLEX Mag bullshit just LOOKS like a lot of work.....multiple heavy sets of bench/squats/rows are more taxing and burn more calories than triceps pushdowns with 37 different attachments.
On paper, FLEX Mag bullshit just LOOKS like a lot of work.....multiple heavy sets of bench/squats/rows are more taxing and burn more calories than triceps pushdowns with 37 different attachments.
ProtienFiend
New member
I dont know if I could do that workout... Squats 3x per wk and deadlifts only once...? what gives? I'm a deadlifting machine
JKurz1
Banned
bingo all excellent poss. I started the freaking 5x5 tiday at your request. I will keep the diet of my trainer but look to u guys for the strength....he's say the diet at 4,000 clean cals with two cheat meals a week is strictly on point, timed perfectly etc...the rest is up to me. Lose he heads games Jeff, follow the gurus clean diet, u won't get fat and lsten to these dudes for mass!
171 today after 30 min walk
1 cup oats
1./4 cup oat bran
12 egg whites, scoop whey
tb pb
1.2 cup rice
steamed veggies
8oz roughy and chicken breast
large salad
train
Squat
bar x 5
65x5
85x4
105x5x5
oh press
0x5
65x5
75x5, x5, x5
85 x 4 x 2
65 x 10
triangle tris
80x15
90x12
110x10x3
cable curls
60x15
70x12
90x10x2
100x10
20 minutes walk, 12% grade 3.0,3.1, 3.2, 3.5
3 sets abs........
6 rice cakes
scoop whey
1/2 cup quick sugry packet oats
next
8oz roughy
acorn squash
large salad grilled shrroms, grilled onions
on my pilow
2oz waluts
1 cup cotage cheese
1 frothy casein shake with tons of splenda
tomorrow is cheat meals!
morning either a buffet or a box or two of protein bars w/ peanut butter
night all u can eat pasta stone cold creamery sunday
171 today after 30 min walk
1 cup oats
1./4 cup oat bran
12 egg whites, scoop whey
tb pb
1.2 cup rice
steamed veggies
8oz roughy and chicken breast
large salad
train
Squat
bar x 5
65x5
85x4
105x5x5
oh press
0x5
65x5
75x5, x5, x5
85 x 4 x 2
65 x 10
triangle tris
80x15
90x12
110x10x3
cable curls
60x15
70x12
90x10x2
100x10
20 minutes walk, 12% grade 3.0,3.1, 3.2, 3.5
3 sets abs........
6 rice cakes
scoop whey
1/2 cup quick sugry packet oats
next
8oz roughy
acorn squash
large salad grilled shrroms, grilled onions
on my pilow
2oz waluts
1 cup cotage cheese
1 frothy casein shake with tons of splenda
tomorrow is cheat meals!
morning either a buffet or a box or two of protein bars w/ peanut butter
night all u can eat pasta stone cold creamery sunday
cardiomann
Banned
36drew said:Jkurz, here is a 5 day split I think you could live with that focuses on core lifts, progessive overload, etc. It also has a bit of variety which I know you desire (me too). A nice calorie surplus and 8 hours of sleep each night are pre-requisites however. I'm also not sure if you've deloaded or done a strategic deconditon lately, but it probably is in line if not. Basically (and this is nothing breathtaking, or remarkable) start off with a weight you can easily do for 5 sets of 5 reps. You would be surprised at the amount of fatigue you can actually apply to you system even though you aren't touching failure and could use more weight. Ramp up the weights for 4-6 weeks and then drop the lifts to 3x3 when you hit a wall and when failure starts showing up. So long as failure doesn't show up in weeks 1-3, its a sure fire bet that fatigue has accumulated and a deload is likely in line. Then keep running the 3x3 until you hit the wall again. Then come back and see us.
Re diet questions: I know you want to stay lean, but lets face it man! You already know exactly how to get lean. You just happened to diet indefinetly and eventually the body needs to convert those amino acids to energy because the cut was so long (a few years I thought I had read?). Anywho, i'm not gonna suggest eating shit foods, but for breakfast I just had 6 eggs, 6 pancakes with awesome syrup, a bran muffin, 2 large glasses of milk, and 6 sausauges. Damn was it ever good.
The routine is below and is something I would/have used with good success.
Monday
-Squats 5x5
-Power Cleans 5x5
-Pullups 3 sets
Tuesday
-Flat Bench 5x5
-Standing BB Press 5x5
-Dips 3 sets
Wednesday
-Front Squats 5x5
-Deadlifts 5x5
-Weighted Abs 3 sets
Thursday
-Rest!
Friday
-Incline Bench 5x5
-Decline Bench 5x5
-Skull Crushers 3 sets
Saturday
-Squats 5x5
-Rows 5x5
-Db Curls 3 sets
Sunday
-Rest!
For bodybuilding purposes I don't like this split at all. I would recommend the following split which hits each muscle once per week. My split allows for more exercises per muscle group thus hitting each muscle more thoroughly. The split is as follows:
Monday: Chest and Triceps
Chest:
Incline Hammer Press (Plate Loaded) 4-5 X 5-12
Dumbell Bench or Hammer Strength Iso Wide Chest 4-5 X 5-15
Flat Dumbell Flyes 3-4 X 6-15
Dips 3-4 X 6-20
Triceps:
Skullcrushers 3-4 X 6-12
Pressdowns 3-4 X 6-12
Cardio: 30min post workout
Tuesday:Back+ Abs
Back:
Wide Grip Chins 4-5 X 6-20
Hammer Strength High Row 4-5 X 5-15
Dumbell Row 4-5 X 5-15
Narrow Grip Pulldowns 3-4 X 6-15
Abs:
Hammer Strength Crunch Machine 4-5 X 6-30
Cardio 30min Post Workout
Wednesday: Biceps
Biceps :
Hammer Strength Preacher 4-5 X 5-15
Dumbell Concentration Curls 3-4 X 6-15
Cardio 30min post workout
Thursday:Quads + Hams
Quads:
Leg Press (Cybex 45degree with pad all the way back,deep reps) 5-6 X 6-20
Hack Squat(Cybex) 4-5 X 6-20
Hams:
Lying Leg Curl 4-5 X 5-15
Cardio 30 min post workout
Friday: Delts + Traps
Delts:
Seated Barbell Presses 4-5 X 5-12
Seated Side Dumbell Laterals (One arm at a time) 4-5 X 6-12
Upright Rows (2sets Wide Grip, 2sets narrow grip) 4 X 6-15
Traps:
Hammer Strength Shrugs 3-4 X 8-20
Cardio 30 min post workout
Weekends: No weights, however I do cardio for 30 min on sat and sunday.
Cardio is performed everday of the week for at least 30 min. I use the stepmill which I feel gives you the most effective workout. This routine is much more effective for bodybuilding purposes. Hope this helps.
SgtSlaughter
New member
SO TRUE!BiggT said:
When i did my < = 5 rep sets to find my PR's ... after my PWO meal, 1 hour later... during taking a shower it hit me and i was friggin' STARVING... i've never been that way before. So true.
JK deff try it at some point. I start my first 5x5 Monday
anotherbutters
New member
That's brilliant news JK. I assume you're following what 36drew posted earlier? Only I didn't see where OH press and squats fit into one of his days. Don't get me wrong, OH press is a great movement to train, but you need to have some consistency with what you train from week to week and not switch from one thing to another. What's the plan?JKurz1 said:
Also, if you're training 5x5, stick with 5x5 rather than jumping up to a higher weight like you did on the OH press. Like 75x5x5 today, then 80x5x5 next week, then 85x5x5 the following week, etc. 75 should have been easy today as this is week 1.
And go easy on the isolation work. 3x8 of tri's and bi's is plenty - you're training the big lifts so don't burn your arms out doing all that.
JKurz1
Banned
First of all, I dontlike this routine at all. Wayyy too much cable work and isolation work and cardio every day??? Did you read any of my posts?? Dude Im 168, I need the rest....2x a week moderate walk max......you must be cutting.cardiomann said:
I spoke with my trainer this am and he really isnt a fan of 5x5 and said If I chose to do it, so be, just leave him out.....well, I promised I would listen to him for 90 days, if I dint see a change, then it was over. He agreed. SO in the case, I need to stick to my word. We went over the diet to a tee and the training schedule (since he isnt seeing the improvement he wanted after 3 weeks, still beat down, he's changing up my split...no more 2x a day)
Monday
CHEST/BIS
TUES -
HAMSTRINGS, FOREARRMS, ABS CALVES
WED
OFF
THURSDAY
BACK/TRAPS
FRIDAY
DELTS/TRIS
SAT -
QUADS, FOREARMS, ABS CALVES....
I promise you guys I will go back to the 5x5 if he dpesnt work out....Promise. I just made a promise to the devil, errr him and I need to keep it.
Can I give a lil rant? I get depressed hardcore. Why? I'm not sure, like this morning, I did 30 minutes of light cardio, showered, a flex my abs and they just appear faded...why is this? My calories arent even that high and yesterdays calories were lower than normal? I always carry around this full/bloated feeling and have this modd swings where I say LETS GET BIG...then the next hand I get depressed because I just look skinny fat....
Here's the catch however....if I was getting stronger, I would care less about the abs or the scale. Honest to God, but to still be weak and see the scale move, is what is depressing....so it's not a disorder, it's common sense...if the weights in the weightroom increase and I can be as strong as I was once was, I would truly give two shits abs the abs.....but I dont wanna gain all this weight in my stomach and still be weak....with me?
anotherbutters
New member
Absolutely. That's why I think you should be focusing on getting better at the big compound movements, i.e. the squat, bench, dead, row and OH press. At this stage, you ought to be able to put a little bit more on the bar every week, driving up your strength. There are lots of ways of arranging these movements, so it doesn't matter if you follow the way they're arranged in the 5x5, what 36drew posted, or anything else, so long as the focus is on getting better at those movements.JKurz1 said:
So, if you want to follow your trainer's routine, that's fine, but if it isn't based around getting better at those movements, alarm bells should be ringing. Honestly though, splitting up the body like that and leaving each part for a whole week before touching it again isn't the most effective way of training.
Another thing, if you're getting stronger from week to week and you can see the weight on the bar going up, that will take your mind off your abs.
cardiomann
Banned
JKurz1 said:
Dude, the routine I posted is a solid BODYBUILDING routine. You can't build a complete body with just rows, deadlifts, squats, and bench. By the way, squats and deadlifts are two of the most over rated exercised out there. In regards to the cardio, it is performed everday for two important reasons. 1) Heart health 2) Recovery. Cardio eliminates lactic acid and other waste products from the blood which speeds recovery.
cardiomann
Banned
By the way, I am glad you are not a fan of 5 X 5. Personally, I think it is a bullshit bodybuilding routine. It might be fine for powerlifters but not bodybuilders.
cardiomann said:
1) Yes, actually you can build a complete body with just rows, deadlifts, presses, squats, etc.
2) Ronnie Coleman squats and deadlifts like there is no tomorrow and so should you. The make the WHOLE body grow.
3) I agree with the cardio.
4) No argueing, just using my head and commonsense.
blut wump
New member
It's true no-one in their right mind does squats and deadlifts. Not unless they want to grow some meat, anyway. Tell me, when did anyone last see a scrawny powerlifter or weightlifter? I see scrawny 'bodybuilders' avoiding getting under some heavy weight every time I go to the gym.
Note, I'm not suggesting that you're scrawny, Cardioman, I neither know nor care, but that routine sucks for anyone natural trying to make healthy, long-term, sustainable progress. One of the reasons that strength lifters have a tendency to carry more non-lean bodymass is that it lends itself to extra lifting ability. With a routine geared around progress on the bar, one can see month by month that progress is definitely being made in a truly objective fashion.
For a natural lifter, being stronger will make your muscles larger and is pretty much a prerequisite for growth. Seeing regular results and progress is addictive and many just never quite get around to cutting back down because they are so pleased with their ongoing gains. Madcow posted a while ago a thread showing the results of a powerlifter cutting down.
Note, I'm not suggesting that you're scrawny, Cardioman, I neither know nor care, but that routine sucks for anyone natural trying to make healthy, long-term, sustainable progress. One of the reasons that strength lifters have a tendency to carry more non-lean bodymass is that it lends itself to extra lifting ability. With a routine geared around progress on the bar, one can see month by month that progress is definitely being made in a truly objective fashion.
For a natural lifter, being stronger will make your muscles larger and is pretty much a prerequisite for growth. Seeing regular results and progress is addictive and many just never quite get around to cutting back down because they are so pleased with their ongoing gains. Madcow posted a while ago a thread showing the results of a powerlifter cutting down.
anotherbutters
New member
Here it is (Dave Gulledge):
http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/index.php?showtopic=1110
Note the fat powerlifter that doesn't follow a 'bodybuilding' routine
http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/index.php?showtopic=1110
Note the fat powerlifter that doesn't follow a 'bodybuilding' routine
Protobuilder
New member
cardiomann said:
Most "bodybuilders" on the 'net are well under 200 with maybe a handful of training years under their belt. They need mass. Period. They don't need tons and tons of fatigue, devoting limited resources to "shaping" and "refining" their rear delts and soleus'.
BiggT
New member
To add, most bodybuilders WHO DO NOT use gallons of test/gh/slin and do not train for progressive strength increases in big lifts are small, under 200lbs, and if you saw them in a t shirt you would never know they worked out. But, it is only a matter of time before they discover the *secret* exercise or program or angle to put the incline bench at for Smith machine presses that will take them to hugeness, right?
FLEX, MuscleMag, Weider Principles, the supplement industry, and actually modern 'bodybuilding' as a whole is involved in a cover-up at the expense of uninformed people's bank accounts.....People buy mags, they read ads for supplements, when supplements sell, the supplement companies get rich and advertise more in mags, making the mags rich....for people to buy mags, you can't just keep printing 'squat, pull, press, eat, repeat'....most people don't want hard, but simple.....they want easy, but complicated. Nobody who is natural or even moderately juiced is getting huge on a 'routine' that isn't focused on bringing up big lifts, just walk into any gym in America and look at the average size and strength of the members, they aren't small because they don't juice (a lot of 'em actually do and are still pussies), they aren't small because they haven't discovered the magic routine or supplement, they're squids because they do not know how to train progressively over time.....the cover-up if anybody hasn't guessed is of course the fact that the routines in the mags and pumping and blasting won't work unless you're a genetic freak who is also completely reliant on drugs and ancillaries, then the rest as they say is 99.9% diet (another joke, but thats another topic).
Anybody who really thinks that in a natural trainee, bodybuilding and strength training are vastly different, doesn't know a thing.
Training compound lifts progressively always slaps muscle on people, natural or not, so long as they aren't starving themselves. If you want to train '1 bodypart a week', then fine, just make sure the squat, deadlift, bench, overhead, row etc go up. The reason strength training uses frequency is because it fosters faster progress, however the once a week split can be effective if it isn't cluttered with buttheaded iso exercises and centered around 'getting pumped and sore'. Seriously, anybody doing a ton of iso crap wouldn't even notice if they dropped it, so long as they kept getting better on th stuff that counts.
FLEX, MuscleMag, Weider Principles, the supplement industry, and actually modern 'bodybuilding' as a whole is involved in a cover-up at the expense of uninformed people's bank accounts.....People buy mags, they read ads for supplements, when supplements sell, the supplement companies get rich and advertise more in mags, making the mags rich....for people to buy mags, you can't just keep printing 'squat, pull, press, eat, repeat'....most people don't want hard, but simple.....they want easy, but complicated. Nobody who is natural or even moderately juiced is getting huge on a 'routine' that isn't focused on bringing up big lifts, just walk into any gym in America and look at the average size and strength of the members, they aren't small because they don't juice (a lot of 'em actually do and are still pussies), they aren't small because they haven't discovered the magic routine or supplement, they're squids because they do not know how to train progressively over time.....the cover-up if anybody hasn't guessed is of course the fact that the routines in the mags and pumping and blasting won't work unless you're a genetic freak who is also completely reliant on drugs and ancillaries, then the rest as they say is 99.9% diet (another joke, but thats another topic).
Anybody who really thinks that in a natural trainee, bodybuilding and strength training are vastly different, doesn't know a thing.
Training compound lifts progressively always slaps muscle on people, natural or not, so long as they aren't starving themselves. If you want to train '1 bodypart a week', then fine, just make sure the squat, deadlift, bench, overhead, row etc go up. The reason strength training uses frequency is because it fosters faster progress, however the once a week split can be effective if it isn't cluttered with buttheaded iso exercises and centered around 'getting pumped and sore'. Seriously, anybody doing a ton of iso crap wouldn't even notice if they dropped it, so long as they kept getting better on th stuff that counts.
cardiomann
Banned
I am 5'10'' 220lbs at around 9% bodyfat. I have never incorporated squats and deadlifts into my routine. My training has always been similiar to the routine that I outlined.When I want to add mass I simply increase calories. When I want to cut I decrease them. It's that simple.
SgtSlaughter
New member
HOLY HELL!!anotherbutters said:Here it is (Dave Gulledge):
http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/index.php?showtopic=1110
Note the fat powerlifter that doesn't follow a 'bodybuilding' routine
Wow, props on the dieting dedication, dropped some serious fat
Do u know if he used any gear while dropping weight to maintain muscle, just curious?
The deplete and carb up differences are insane too!
Cynical Simian
New member
SgtSlaughter
New member
Thanks broCynical Simian said:
... *goes off to read*
anotherbutters
New member
lolCynical Simian said:
anotherbutters said:
I think that's fantastic advice.
J, bro, you know you can't have your cake and eat it, too. A little loss in the clarity of your abs is well worth getting your muscle back, bro. You've got muscle memory on your side ... if you focus almost solely on getting your big, compound moves back to where they were and continue to eat your ass off, you'll be back where you were in no time flat; and if, at that point, you figure you could be leaner, well -- diet for awhile. Step up the cardio a little.
But until then, get back to where you could pump out an easy 15 w/ 225 on the flat bench. Get your squat up to where it was. The muscle will be there then, man. With it, it'll be that much easier to burn off the little bit of fat you might've put on in the process.
Keep your eye on the whole forest. Don't stress it by the tree, man.
ProtienFiend
New member
Envyanotherbutters said:Here it is (Dave Gulledge):
http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/index.php?showtopic=1110
Note the fat powerlifter that doesn't follow a 'bodybuilding' routine
cardiomann
Banned
JKurz1 said:
Hey skinny,where is there any cable work posted in my routine??? Most of my exercises are compound, basic movements.
silver_shadow
New member
dude that plain sucks... for "bodybuilding purposes" too.cardiomann said:
JKurz1
Banned
You know what, if you want to rant and rave about your training, make your own thread....I don't know you nor does it appear that many here care for your thoughts....so thanks, but that will be enough. My training schedule will look like this...enough said.cardiomann said:
all bodyparts will be 4 exercises, 3 sets each, not including warmups and cooldowns - his theory is 10 is good 12 is better, 8 is good 10 is better, then 6 is good, 8 is better
all days will hit at least one of the compound movements and I'm thinking about using saturday to hit em all in one cycle of 5x5 (deads, oh press, sqauts, bench)
Sunday and Wendnesday will be 30 mins cardio only and abs.
Monday
am bis and 20 minutes incline walk - just to sweat a little and get the metab. cranking, abs
PM chest 45 minutes intense
TUES - AM - TRIS, PM BACK
WED OFF
THURS - CARDIO AM, DELTS - PM
FRI - HAMS/CALVES/FOR - AM PM QUADS
SAT BIG 5 MOVEMENTS
blut wump
New member
You might struggle on the Saturday, especially doing the big five on a day straight after hitting your legs. Deadlifts and squats will be hard work.
Doing OHP and bench on the same day is doable but I'd suggest only pushing hard on one of the two and treat the other as accessory work. Rowing sits nicely with either.
If you want to hit everything up like that on the Saturday then I guess you're going to have to be going fairly light across the board. It might be advantageous to shuffle things around to free up your quads and posterior chain, though, even so.
Doing OHP and bench on the same day is doable but I'd suggest only pushing hard on one of the two and treat the other as accessory work. Rowing sits nicely with either.
If you want to hit everything up like that on the Saturday then I guess you're going to have to be going fairly light across the board. It might be advantageous to shuffle things around to free up your quads and posterior chain, though, even so.
JKurz1
Banned
I am done, but I still need to do something in the am before the office for ental purposes....maybe this week it'll just be light light cardio, stretching, and abs...we'll see. I did the 20minute incline wak before training bis...just had some extra time so got a good pump on....
MONDAY – AUG. 7TH
WELL, a new week time for alittle change. I need some support. Everyday I feel like I’m getting better, finishing more meals, but am getting depressed. As you know, I am taking in 4,200 cals and weighed in today at 9lbs heavier than 2.5 weeks ago. Trainer has upped my cals to an even 4,500 and now I get two cheat meals a week of whatever I want. I have yet to take ONE! But he doesn’t know that. The depressing part is that my definition and abs are fading heavily. Blurring out and I don’t feel like Im any stronger. Is this all in my head? I’m only 166 and at 6’2, my mom tells me if I saw myself, I’d be eating everything in sight every hour, bar none…but Im just nervous. I know I keep saying it over and over but it comes down to my test levels. I realize that test isn’t some wonder drug, but I just keep reading how good of results people get on 250mg a week for 20+ weeks and recovery is a sinch with proper pct due to the low test.
Would anyone agree with me that this will help my mood, intensitiy, energy, and afford me the opportunity to eat more and use more as fuel? I am just so freakin worried that at 30 years old, and no test, that it’s the reason my abs are fading fast. My body just doesn’t know what to do with the excess cals. Am I crazy, do people my age eat this much??? Ive refrained from the gear, until I get some support from everyone, but then again I hate to just waste it getting to 180 or 190 when that’s where I should be anyways.
Would you suggest waitng till I’m 180 and use it for 20 weeks to get to 210? Then will I have your support? If I used it then, would it help me to not only get stronger, but to trim off some of that dreaded fat and bloat gains I make getting up from 165? Sorry about the neurotic post, but I look to you guys for support…I love this board for that reason. Ive made great strides, just need to make more.
MONDAY – AUG. 7TH
WELL, a new week time for alittle change. I need some support. Everyday I feel like I’m getting better, finishing more meals, but am getting depressed. As you know, I am taking in 4,200 cals and weighed in today at 9lbs heavier than 2.5 weeks ago. Trainer has upped my cals to an even 4,500 and now I get two cheat meals a week of whatever I want. I have yet to take ONE! But he doesn’t know that. The depressing part is that my definition and abs are fading heavily. Blurring out and I don’t feel like Im any stronger. Is this all in my head? I’m only 166 and at 6’2, my mom tells me if I saw myself, I’d be eating everything in sight every hour, bar none…but Im just nervous. I know I keep saying it over and over but it comes down to my test levels. I realize that test isn’t some wonder drug, but I just keep reading how good of results people get on 250mg a week for 20+ weeks and recovery is a sinch with proper pct due to the low test.
Would anyone agree with me that this will help my mood, intensitiy, energy, and afford me the opportunity to eat more and use more as fuel? I am just so freakin worried that at 30 years old, and no test, that it’s the reason my abs are fading fast. My body just doesn’t know what to do with the excess cals. Am I crazy, do people my age eat this much??? Ive refrained from the gear, until I get some support from everyone, but then again I hate to just waste it getting to 180 or 190 when that’s where I should be anyways.
Would you suggest waitng till I’m 180 and use it for 20 weeks to get to 210? Then will I have your support? If I used it then, would it help me to not only get stronger, but to trim off some of that dreaded fat and bloat gains I make getting up from 165? Sorry about the neurotic post, but I look to you guys for support…I love this board for that reason. Ive made great strides, just need to make more.
silver_shadow
New member
your better advised doing something along the lines ofJKurz1 said:
squat OR deads 5x5
flat bench OR OHP OR decline bench OR incline
bent over BB rows
what happened to a 5x5 routine?
JKurz1
Banned
530 am
20 minute incline walk, 5 min. flat walk
abs
30 minutes bis
10,10,8,6 - 3 exerc. 3 sets
715
3/4 cup oats (didnt finish them all)
45g whey, egg whites, skim milk shake
10 am
1.25 cups oats
45g of protein, casein pudding, egg whites, skim
1pm - swapping my 4oz cooked pasta to 6oz yam...much beter carb source in my opinion, less water retention, less bulk/bloat feeling......mashed em up with some splenda, cinnamon, hopefully will be pretty good...is this enough carbs for my three meals? I'm under my written plan, but I want to focus the majority of my carbs post chest traininging tonite......what do you guys eat before bed?
He wants me to be eating allllll night long....thought about 4oz flank and 12 egg whites, but I really enjoy dry curd cottage cheese, nuts and a casein shake. Just don't know ho much to use....quit looking at the little things, I know...but this isnt little....its prebed, so I ned to be careful with fat storage...abs already starting to fade which makes me very depressed...I need som articles to read on how to quit being a basketcase.....low test is hurting my mind, and the fear of not being able to diet it off at age 30 with a declining metoblsim...Im not a kid anymore.....most of you are in your early twenties, makes it a cake walk. I used to eat my ass off and still be 10-12%..I try and do that now and Im finished.
20 minute incline walk, 5 min. flat walk
abs
30 minutes bis
10,10,8,6 - 3 exerc. 3 sets
715
3/4 cup oats (didnt finish them all)
45g whey, egg whites, skim milk shake
10 am
1.25 cups oats
45g of protein, casein pudding, egg whites, skim
1pm - swapping my 4oz cooked pasta to 6oz yam...much beter carb source in my opinion, less water retention, less bulk/bloat feeling......mashed em up with some splenda, cinnamon, hopefully will be pretty good...is this enough carbs for my three meals? I'm under my written plan, but I want to focus the majority of my carbs post chest traininging tonite......what do you guys eat before bed?
He wants me to be eating allllll night long....thought about 4oz flank and 12 egg whites, but I really enjoy dry curd cottage cheese, nuts and a casein shake. Just don't know ho much to use....quit looking at the little things, I know...but this isnt little....its prebed, so I ned to be careful with fat storage...abs already starting to fade which makes me very depressed...I need som articles to read on how to quit being a basketcase.....low test is hurting my mind, and the fear of not being able to diet it off at age 30 with a declining metoblsim...Im not a kid anymore.....most of you are in your early twenties, makes it a cake walk. I used to eat my ass off and still be 10-12%..I try and do that now and Im finished.
anotherbutters
New member
lol. Hey dude, at least you've still got your sense of humourJKurz1 said:
I think if you're going to follow your trainer's routine, you should follow it. Adding in a heavy day of everything on Saturday is going to affect whatever else you're doing.
On the food front, eating at maintenance every now and then wouldn't do you any harm and might give you peace of mind and more confidence to eat more the rest of the time.
anotherbutters
New member
I thought this was a good read:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6502136#post6502136
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6502136#post6502136
silver_shadow
New member
actually those posts by madcow above that are def worth a read.
anotherbutters
New member
I wasn't saying follow a routine. I just thought what he said was interesting, especially for you JK. The more you look into all this 'bodybuilding' malarky, the more complicated it seems to become and the more there is to worry about. But in reality, 99% of what produces results is pretty simple. Lift, eat, sleep.
JKurz1
Banned
GOT the lift and sleep down pretty good.....actually, sleep is a solid 7-8hrs a night....trouble is 3x a night to piss........that sucks.....maye I should be tosing down food each time....nah....diet is the hardest part for me, I'm wayyyyyyyyy to picky and everything weighed and measured to the tee......
for example...sf jello.....I got the box that has 4 servings...I'm freaking neverous about sprinkling a little in my preshake to make it creamery because it has maltodextrin as its third ingreditent and 6g of freaking carbs........
for example...sf jello.....I got the box that has 4 servings...I'm freaking neverous about sprinkling a little in my preshake to make it creamery because it has maltodextrin as its third ingreditent and 6g of freaking carbs........
cardiomann
Banned
silver_shadow said:
Dude, explain to me how my routine "plain sucks"??? No offense skippy, but I have always followed a routine similar to this and I am 5'10'' 220lbs at around 9-10 bodyfat. What are your stats??? You are probably just another moron who blindly follows what others say. Deep legpresses are a more effective movement for targeting the lower body than squats. Also, deadlifts produce a thick wasted physique that ruins asthetics. These exercises are way overrated.
BiggT
New member
JKurz1 said:
JK, the good thing is that you actually know you can overthink and be a little too neurotic. To simplify it, don't look at maldodextrin, don't count the carbs, think how many more calories it actually adds. Does it matter if you eat 4,200cals or 4,239? No, it isn't gonna make a bit of difference if you look at things in the grand scheme. Gaining muscle and bulking really doesn't require the level of detail that getting in BB contest shape does.
About being 30 and justifying eating more than the average person....AGAIN, you're not the average person. The average 30 year old American wakes up, smokes a few cigarettes, skips breakfast, has 2 doughnuts from the cafeteria at work around 9 AM, eats a Value Meal from McDonalds washed don with a sugery coca-cola at lunch around noon (and then wonders why they feel 'so tired' after lunch), then the afternoon consistes of not eating anything and taking a few 'smoke breaks'. They then come home around 5 or 6 PM and eat dinner (which is usually the best meal they eat all day), they then lay around until bedtime, and maybe drink some alcohol or munch on some potato chips. Oh yeah, about once or twice a year (New Year's and before Summer) they get a thought in their head that they may or may not like to begin working out, the thought usually passes within a few minutes, if no, they join the gym and go once or twice before stopping entirely. Eating 2000 cals a day on a starvation diet would be a million times better than what the average American slob typically does. It would not be better for YOU.
Anyway, I hope you enjoyed my little example, lol, but seriously, you are NOT the average person when you look at your goals and workout schedule......so don't let that thought pop back into your head.
T
The Shadow
Guest
cardiomann said:
Do you have a pic posted??
cardiomann
Banned
The Shadow said:
Hey asshole, who the fuck are you to question me??? If that is you in your avatar, you are a fucking joke. Your arms look no bigger than 15 inches. No natural mass. Let me guess, you built you pathetic physique from deadlifts, squats, and benches! LOL
Cynical Simian
New member
Apparently he's an "Elite Moderator". I wonder what that means.cardiomann said:
anotherbutters
New member
Bye bye cardiomann, lol.
T
The Shadow
Guest
cardiomann said:
LMFAO....nice reply...a bit on the fucktarded side...but still......
"no natural mass"
BWAUAUAUAGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!
Holy Shit - Mr. Wizard thinks he's being clever.
STFU and post a picture Nancy.....
One other thing:
you have two options:
1 - Collect yourself, remove that stick from your rectum and chill a bit
or
2 - I MAKE you chill
and that my friend isnt a threat......
Here's a little taste
*Pacino Voice*
Say herro to my rittle friend
T
The Shadow
Guest
anotherbutters said:
the fat bitch is gargling
SgtSlaughter
New member
*Ahnold Voice*
Hasta la Vista Baby
Hasta la Vista Baby
JKurz1
Banned
TUESDAY -
500AM - DECIDED TO HIT A LITTLE LIGHT CARDIO BEFORE WORK, NOTHING GRULING, WORKED UP A DECENT SWEAT....20 minutes on 12% grade, 3.0, 3.1,3.2,3.3 speed then 4.0 at 4% grade for 5 minutes....25 mins total. THeighed weighed in fully clothed at 156....weight is dropping......my first meal of the day I havent been getting all the ay down, missing my post workout meal at night too. I typicall have my pw shake and some raw oats (50 g whey, 1/2 cup oats, 1/2 cup cereal) post trainng at 630pm. Then I dont eat again till 9ish where I have a few almonds, walnuts, etc. 25g casein shake and 1 cup of dry curd cottage cheese with splenda as I crash and watch tv....lights out 5 minutes later.
7:15am after some high rep tris, abs and small cardio
1/2 cup oats
1/2 cup whole grain cereal (50 cals)
50g whey shake made up of whey, skim, and egg whites...large coffee
JEFF - you bulking or cutting - abs still look faded, but you got to get over it.....I have to think it's time to ad in a low dose of test, been feeling really down and need to really get the cals in without worrying about fat gain...
500AM - DECIDED TO HIT A LITTLE LIGHT CARDIO BEFORE WORK, NOTHING GRULING, WORKED UP A DECENT SWEAT....20 minutes on 12% grade, 3.0, 3.1,3.2,3.3 speed then 4.0 at 4% grade for 5 minutes....25 mins total. THeighed weighed in fully clothed at 156....weight is dropping......my first meal of the day I havent been getting all the ay down, missing my post workout meal at night too. I typicall have my pw shake and some raw oats (50 g whey, 1/2 cup oats, 1/2 cup cereal) post trainng at 630pm. Then I dont eat again till 9ish where I have a few almonds, walnuts, etc. 25g casein shake and 1 cup of dry curd cottage cheese with splenda as I crash and watch tv....lights out 5 minutes later.
7:15am after some high rep tris, abs and small cardio
1/2 cup oats
1/2 cup whole grain cereal (50 cals)
50g whey shake made up of whey, skim, and egg whites...large coffee
JEFF - you bulking or cutting - abs still look faded, but you got to get over it.....I have to think it's time to ad in a low dose of test, been feeling really down and need to really get the cals in without worrying about fat gain...
anotherbutters
New member
You said you were 166 yesterday. You can't possibly be 156 today fully clothed.
And what's with skipping meals, especially post workout? Do you have no desire to have a big, muscular chest, arms, back, shoulders and legs? You're focussing on abs to the exclusion of everything else. There's more to having a decent looking body than just having abs.
And what's with skipping meals, especially post workout? Do you have no desire to have a big, muscular chest, arms, back, shoulders and legs? You're focussing on abs to the exclusion of everything else. There's more to having a decent looking body than just having abs.
JKurz1
Banned
thanks....I swear to you, if I could lose the metnatily that my low test will equal fat storage at age 30, I'd eat my ass off....I promise....I just want your supoport on a mild, mild low dose test cycle for 12 weeks......no more basketcase threads....it's true that low test is easier to store fat....if I use test, i'll increase my strength, build more muscle, eat more...do a proper pct, and hopefully be restored for life...Ill also cut out the cardio and 2x a day training...please be my doc spport me....you and Shawdow!
anotherbutters
New member
I'll start by admitting I don't know anything about gear, but everyone's already explained to you that that would cause you to take one step forwards, then three steps back. Any gains whilst on are just going to give you a short term 'fix' to satisfy your short term goals, but you're going to ruin your natty production afterwards and you'll regress worse than you are now.
JKurz1
Banned
why???? I am going to do a solid pct......I will hopefully recover, and I will be eating a ton...could be a long term fix.....esp. if I can gain 20-25lbs, keeping 15....then keep o my bulking diet and roll with the punches.....keep gaining and gaining and gaining as my test leevels will hopefully then be up to par.....
silver_shadow
New member
how are you going to bounce back with good natty test production by doing a cycle and "good" pct?JKurz1 said:
T
The Shadow
Guest
JKurz1 said:
you will not gain 25 pounds on a moderate test cycle.....you will most likely keep 8-10 lean pounds imo...basically the same amount as if you went on a PCT/TRIB/A-dex/fats/clomid cycle now.
T
The Shadow
Guest
JKurz1 said:
Do what you want because Im about to move this thread to the gear board.
I have a lot of patience - but dude - enough is enough.
If you feel that a cycle will work for you - hit it.
In 8 weeks - you will bump this thread as you aill be in exactly the same situation.....this will be your logic:
Stage 1 - "I'm on a cycle - I will eat and train hard but recover."
Stage 2 - "I'm getting a little stronger and Im gaining mass(water).
Stage 3 - DENIAL PHASE - "I'm getting swole - I must be fully recovered so I can hit it harder with more volume/training days."
Stage 4 - "I have plateaued - I'm upping the dose."
Stage 5 - " I'm gaining again - Ive recovered - Im upping the dose"
Stage 6 - "I am flatlining again - I CANNOT come off NOW - I'll lose EVERYTHING I have gained."
Stage 7 - You will bump this post on EF - you have hit 800-1000mg per week and your test production resembles that of a prepubescent girl.
I have seen it time and time again in OCD people.
anotherbutters
New member
Please don't move this to the gear board.
blut wump
New member
Can you confrim your weight? Last I read, you were mid-to-high 160s.
JK, nobody here is going to consider you sane at taking a test cycle. As others have said, it's your body and you'll do with it as you will but jumping it onto a test cycle will disappoint almost everyone here.
Just to make another thing clear, you will also gain fat while taking your projected cycle. It will not give you the nutrient partitioning you seem to be anticipating.
JK, nobody here is going to consider you sane at taking a test cycle. As others have said, it's your body and you'll do with it as you will but jumping it onto a test cycle will disappoint almost everyone here.
Just to make another thing clear, you will also gain fat while taking your projected cycle. It will not give you the nutrient partitioning you seem to be anticipating.
Protobuilder
New member
No offense, but do you have any idea how much you sound like an addict over the past few pages? Your thought process here isn’t healthy, JK. Reading the last few pages as a casual observer, it’s actually kind of scary. Substitute “meth” or “coke” for any gear-related comments and re-read the past few pages.
silver_shadow
New member
again ^^^silver_shadow said:
anotherbutters
New member
JK, you actually HAVE our support right now. Every last one of us wants what's best for you. We ALL want you to get over this, train well and pack on some lean mass. That's why we're all saying the same thing. We're not saying it for the fun of it. We really think that gear is a bad choice right now.
IIRC, you already have the gear, so the temptation must be in your face every day. If so, one option is to destroy it.
IIRC, you already have the gear, so the temptation must be in your face every day. If so, one option is to destroy it.
JKurz1
Banned
no problem....but, Ijust wont eat as much...thats all there is to it....its a proven fact that those with low test levelsand those who consume mass quantities of food (4,000 per say) gain bf qucker and easier than those with even normal ranges and esp. those on gear.....its a fact....so, I'll lower my cals, eat 5 or so avg meals and stay where I am...I;l contunue to postm but Im sure there will be minimal weight gain, I am content....I just also know itll help with my overall motivatio esteem, fatigue factor...etc.Protobuilder said:
Meal #2
1015
1 cup oats
1 scoop casein
6 egg whites
1/2 cup skim
green tea
anotherbutters
New member
Don't go crazy with the cals then. Eat enough to keep the scale moving up, but not too quickly.
sublime35
New member
Dude go to the doctor and get blood work done and find out for sure and get to a good Endocrinologist and let them decide what to do. Tell them everything involving your situation and they can make a better decision than you will. Trying to justify doing it, because you "feel" or "think" your test levels are low, is just plain stupid.
cmdubs
New member
why not at least attempt to bulk naturally first?? the worst that can happen is you gain a little fat right? so what?? you already know how to lose it. you really need to get over this mental block man. you're just going to continue running in circles. please listen to these guys. a test cycle IS NOT the answer.
Protobuilder
New member
JKurz1 said:
Yess, "just one small hit" and all your problems will vanish, and you swear you won't do it again, it'll just be a one-time deal, no biggie, it'll really make you feel great . . .
. . .
Pure addiction monologue bro.
anotherbutters
New member
Tris and back today, right?JKurz1 said:
- Status
