I've HAD IT w/WSB!

[CrimsonKing]

ok..I think the grand experiment has come to an end..

I'm so disapointed and angry

5 weeks of WSB training and this is what has happened so far

Bench PR - down 10#

Deadlift PR - down 33#

Squat PR - ??? I'm afraid to try..

 

[Drunken_Weasel]

im sorry.. but what is WSB?

Thomas

 

[gettinlarger]

Westside.

 

[coolcolj]

well at least you gave it a shot.

from other forums, some people had the same results as you have as well, so you are not alone.

 

[solidj55]

Dont feel like the Lone Ranger there Tonto, same problems here bro, I was just dumb enough to do a 10 week cycle, a 8 week cycle, and another 6 week cycle, all of them produced results in the negative for me. Just goes to show its not for everyone.

 

[spatts]

CK....what are you doing for recovery? And did you modify WSB for all that extra strongman work you're doing?

 

[jeremys]

did you try both your maxes today?

 

[CrimsonKing]

CK....what are you doing for recovery? And did you modify WSB for all that extra strongman work you're doing?

recovery? I'm 34.. I sit on my but! lol

Actually, I've not incorporate much strongman work yet - 2 days I did farmers walk on DE as assistance work with about 60% of max. The atlas stone I only lifted twice - on off days. I was going to work the stuff in but really didn't yet.

I'm so angry... I feel like my body is working against me! Intelectually I love the WSB principles but results are results. My PRs are down. I guess I could take a week off and then try my PR lifts again..

DAMN

 

[CrimsonKing]

Dont feel like the Lone Ranger there Tonto, same problems here bro, I was just dumb enough to do a 10 week cycle, a 8 week cycle, and another 6 week cycle, all of them produced results in the negative for me. Just goes to show its not for everyone.

Interesting .. thanks for sharing.. What style do you use now?

 

[CrimsonKing]

did you try both your maxes today?

No.
- Bench max last week on Upper ME day
- Deadlift tonight on Lower ME Day

 

[Night Fly]

I'm sorry that you have gotten frustrated with it so easily. I don't do anything WS, so I can't say anything about it. Why don't you change it up and see how that works?...I do the basic movements...DL, Squat, Overhead press...for my strongman and then I do accessory exercises with more weight. I haven't had a drop yet...and get PR's most every week. I've been doing it since February.

Don't know if that helped at all...but sorry that you are frustrated.

 

[The Shadow]

ck - you had goos success with the old school program...

what about fusing the de and me upper lower days and using the other exercises in the other program as support?

 

[spatts]

I'm not saying this because my routine is based on Westside...if you were a woman on the women's board that was training old school I'd say the same thing, but 5 weeks doesn't sound like much time to me.

My DE days are never more than 40%...let alone 60%.

I couldn't get through WSB without active recovery...I'd be overtrained, and I'd see NO carry over whatsoever (sound familiar)?

Did you test all three lifts at once? Are you comparing those numbers to days you didn't test them back to back?

Where are your bench, dead, and squat gettin stuck? Top? Bottom? Please be specific. Has your speed increased?

 

[Deciever1]

CK- sry to hear that man... where are the pics???

here's a suggestion..

keep your speed days... it'll help you learn form and get quicker..

instead of rotating exercises for ME days, just do a type of old school routine or something, just make sure your doing a lot of full range movements.

i didnt think a bunch of partial movements would help you since you dont use equipment...

if you need help PM me

 

[CrimsonKing]

wow.. you girls are tuff..

Night Fly - Frustrated so easily?? lol.. well i guess so just have this crazy idea that work should provide steps forward not backward..

Spatts - my old PR came as a result of following Cornholio's Old School 3 day week routine and no it wasn't measured on the same day. I'm not sure I buy off on the active recovery idea. sounds like alot of work for an old guy like me I think I need actual rest on my off days not dragging, etc. But I could be wrong .

My Bench is stuck on the bottom.. I read some good articles and I think I'm starting to adress it with better form.

My Dead tonight was too weird. The bar speed was awesome. I did -
135 x 5
215 x 5
315 x 3
395 x 1

All lifts the bar flew up so easily and smoothly I was convinced that I was going to smash my PR.. then

415 - Fail around Shins
415 - Fail on start
415 - Fail on Start

My last PR was 428 only three weeks ago
I was resting 4 min between sets on the DL btw

I'm thinking I need to tinker with my ME days.. eliminate the board press, GMs and DL, and stick with basic Bench, Squat, Press movements in a 3-8 rep range instead.

Thanks for the feedback guys/gals I do need and apreciate it.. keep it comming.

 

[b fold the truth]

Still trying to figure out why you are testing your PR's after 4 weeks of training... How many of those weeks have you been doing WSB correctly?

You are learning to squat, bench press, and deadlift differently...which means that it takes time to improve at them compared to the way that you used to do them.

Just a thought...

B True

 

[CrimsonKing]

Still trying to figure out why you are testing your PR's after 4 weeks of training... How many of those weeks have you been doing WSB correctly?

You are learning to squat, bench press, and deadlift differently...which means that it takes time to improve at them compared to the way that you used to do them.

Just a thought...

B True

DAMN U CLINT AND YOUR RATIONAL EXPLANATIONS! IM ON A TIRADE HERE

 

[Night Fly]

We're tuff??? hehe...you should have known that by now!

I mean the 'getting frustrated so easily' part like this... I knew that you hadn't done it for very long....is all I meant. Like I said...I have been training like this since February and have YET to test my maxes. If that is what you are going for...then maybe you should stick to it a bit longer before you test them...you may be surprised at what you find out.

 

[CrimsonKing]

Alright.. You all win.. I'm too used to instant gratification i guess...

I'll still going to tweak it a little especially on the ME days.. and I will wait longer until testing my 1RM..

but if it doesnt' work ..


I'll hunt you down!-lol j/k

 

[spatts]

In my first month of WSB, I had to change form on EVERYTHING. My numbers sank...and FAST. My bench was at the bar, my squat went from 315 to 225, my deadlift was stuck in the 200's as well. It sucked, but I knew it was because I was learning to do things with better form...a form the would ultimately allow me to take one step back so I could later take two steps forward.

This cycle never ends. Just tonight, I barely deadlifted 309 and failed 364....even though 353 flew up last week. Just having an off night. It happens. My squats felt weak too.

I KNOW that sometimes my body slows me down because it's smart. I dealt with this ALL my life in sprint training. I would get really slow for a week or two...like my body was doing some building and recovering, and wasn't going to expend extra energy for me to run too. Then, all of a suddden, BAM, 2/10 off my time. Same goes for training. I will hit 80 pound PR's for weeks on end. Then stay stagnant for 2-3 weeks (even went BACKWARDS once, which REALLY pissed me off), then before I knew what happened, the 265 squat hit 320...just like that.

You're body's smart. Listen to it.

We don't know for sure if you're using proper form. We don't know how closely you really adhere to the program. We don't know what you really eat.

If you think sled dragging is active recovery, you need to read the sticky up top. I went from being paralyzed from the chest down after a deadlift to doing 243 for 3 in bent over, chain suspended GM's starting from 36 inches off the floor....I did it in less than 8 weeks, and I did it with bands. Active recovery. 2-3 times a day.

If I didn't do Band AR, hot tub, massage, ice, eat properly, sleep, supplement as needed...there's no way I'd see results. This is HARD on your body. Your CNS gets F%^&*ED.

I don't know if WSB works for you or not, but I'm not sure you've given it enough time for YOU to know either.

When you first PMd me and asked me for a routine, I gave you the basics. There are SO many details, SO many form issues, SO many modifications to accessory work for weak points. If you were doing WSB in the most optimal fashion possible, I'd be VERY impressed.

 

[spatts]

Ok, CK. I looked over your whole training thread, and I can totally see why you’re numbers aren’t working. IMO, you’re not really doing “WSB” so it wouldn’t be prudent to blame it on that. I don’t know how many of your modification are due to strongman endeavors, and how many are just a misunderstanding of the Westside routine. Also, your ME days are too close together...use a couple days between.

On 8/25, it was DE bench day. You did NO lat work, 2 things for tris and 2 for shoudlers. Let’s see…you’re bench is stuck at the bottom…where you need lats…and you’re doing no lat work. Ah…think we’re on to something here. The tricep and shoulder work you chose is not in the bench plane, and therefore may contribute minimal carry-over.

08/26, 135 x 10 = EXCESSIVE warm up. If you spend all that energy repping out low weights to warm up, you will not go as heavy as you should, and therefore would not TRULY be giving a max effort. You’d be partially wasted from volume by the time you got there. You got up to your max and then went BACK for more rep work. This is excessive, and can very easily lead to overtraining issues. Especially since you are “34 and adverse to active recovery.” You did no ab or oblique work, and then you finished with ANOTHER compound movement. This is not any method I know of.

08/29, got frustrated with you bench and did NO accessory work.

08/30, 135 x 2 x 10 = Excesive warm up…spent yourself before your max. Again. NO BACK WORK, again.

09/02, DE banch day. No warm up, only took 30 second breaks, used 60% of max with bands, tri work was not in bench plane, some shoulder work was not in the bench plane, and NO LATS again…seeing a trend?

09/03, ME squat. Excessive warm up, again…effect your max. NO lower back or oblique work….AGAIN. No valsalvas so far in workouts.

09/05, ME bench. Posted a poor bench number that got stuck at the bottom…PROCEEDED TO DO *NO LAT WORK (again…see a trend?). AGAIN, shoulder and tri work NOT in the bench plane.

09/08, DE bench. Tri and shoulder work not in the plane.

This doesn’t look anything like WSB to me. Looks to me like you're on your way to being overtrained, and the thing you've done to overtrain aren't optimal for strength in the first place.

 

[CrimsonKing]

thanks spatts.. that does help alot. I will be sure to lower the warmups and include more lat work. As far a tri/shoulder work in the 'bench plane' I'm not sure what that means? Can you be more detailed and/or specific?

Thanks

 

[teen1216]

I think that work in the same plane means that you are horizontal when benching, so you would do movements that would put you in a horizontal position as well, such as rows.

 

[TheProject]

I guess spatts missed this one this morning, so I'll attempt to answer.

Working in the same plane means performing accessory work where the accessory motion is similar to the motion of the primary lift.

For example, when doing chest supported rows, you'd want your elbows tucked, because that's how you bench. I was doing overhead presses the other day, arms out wide, and was told to bring them in because that's the plane I bench in. Same thing for lat pulldowns--you'd want to do those with a closer grip, and reverse the grip.

Probably not as eloquent an explanation as spatts would give, but I do my best.

 

[solidj55]

This is what I was doing when I made the best gains in strength.
I am not doing it right now because I have completely different goals at the moment as I am just trying to maintain some muscle mass while I am doing a shit load of cardio training for the police academy. But this is my old routine that I will go back to when I am finished with the academy.

Monday
Bench Press
Closegrip Incline Press
Front Delt Dumbell Raises
Tricep Pushdowns or extensions

Tuesday
Some sort of row
Closegrip Pulldowns
Rear Delt Fly
Some sort of curl

Thursday
Board Presses
Side Lateral Raises
Tricep Pushdowns(light w/rope)
Abs

Friday
Squat
Stiff leg deads
Calf Raises
Hyperextensions

 

[solidj55]

Now this is the type of training I am doing now lol, it sucks!!!

Monday
AM-4 mile run(slow pace)
PM-Upper Body workout

Tuesday
AM-2 mile run, 1 mile at a good pace and one mile using Fartlek training which means 100 meters fast pace, 100 meters slow pace, 100 meters moderate pace, etc.

Wednesday
AM- 4 mile run(slow pace)

Thursday
AM-Same as Tuesday
PM- 1 minute of pushups/1 minute of situps(repeat this once)

Friday
AM- 4 mile run(slow pace)
PM- Lower Body Workout

My upper body workout
Dumbell Incline Press(3 sets) I do a different angle on incline every week for variety

Pullups or Rows(any type of row) 3 sets- I alternate between rows and pullups every week

Lateral Raises- 3 sets

Tricep Pushdowns or Extensions-3 sets

Curls(any kind) 3 sets


My lower body workout
Hack Squat-3 sets
Hamstring Curls-3 sets
Calf Raises- 3 sets
Lower Back Hyperextesions- 3 sets

And that is it!!!

 

[spatts]

When I say in the same plane, I mean movements that use the same/similar stroke. If you think about your stance in a BB row....you grip shoulder width, hands reversed or overhand, chestout, shoulder baldes squeezed together, head up, back tight, and you row into your sternum. Now take that picture of yourself and turn it upside down...it's very similar to what you look like benching.

IMHO, certain tricep movements make pretty tris. Maybe even strong tris, but you are never ever going to need strength in that plane of action when benching. JM presses, rolling extensions, elbows out extension, are in the bench plane, and aid in chaos recovery.

It's about conditioning. Conditioning your muscles to be strong in the way you intend to use them.

I think adding COMPLETE core work (obliques, abs, lower back) and specific lat training will do WONDERS for you.

Even abs should be worked from a lengthened position with straight legs...that's how you'd use them. Crunches will make pretty abs, you need strong abs. I would add partial valsalvas too.

 

[TheProject]

I would add partial valsalvas too.

knew you'd find this sooner or later.

I'll bite...what's a valsalva?

 

[coolcolj]

sounds like a female bodypart

 

[spatts]

Partial Valsalvas will strengthen the intercostal muscles (between the ribs). Any "pushed out" static hold will do. For example, walk outs. Take a deep breath pushing out hard...might want to use a belt. Walk the weight out, and hold the diaphragm push the whole time you are doing your walk out...like 12-15 secs, the length of time you normally do them. Keep everything tight, even while you rerack it.

 

[Screwball]

CrimsonKing: Keep these things in mind when training Westside.

- Identify your weaknesses and focus your training on overcoming them.

- Westside is all about building strength in the squat, bench press and deadlift - That's it, nothing else matters!

These are two of the most fundamental aspects of Westside training that many fail to recognize. Westside works for those that use it properly for the right reasons. Good luck with your training and don't rule out Westside or any method of training until you give it a fair chance to work.