is 2L of milk per day is too much?

[Sim882]

Milk is the most controversial food out there - some say it makes you fat, other studies saying the reverse.

It's high insulin index and excellent amino acid profile (BCAA, glutamine) makes it useful when time around exercise IMO during maintenance and especially during bulking.

Furthermore, if you haven't planned well, and your out shopping or something, 1 litre of skim milk is an OK meal replacement.

However, this is how it may work: 2 litres of milk is 110 lactose, which = 55 galactose.

Now, I don't know if this is true because I read this less often, but I think galactose is like fructose - it can only enter the liver. The liver can only process 50 grams of carbs a day, any more turning to fat. When you consider that sucrose and fructose is cotained in veggies and fruit (even brocolli), this may mean that your over it doing it with the milk sugar.

I would be interested in confirmation/repudiation of this analysis. I myself have had periods where I have drunk this much milk though

Tat, can galactase enter muscle glycogen?

 

[Tatyana]

Milk is the most controversial food out there - some say it makes you fat, other studies saying the reverse.

It's high insulin index and excellent amino acid profile (BCAA, glutamine) makes it useful when time around exercise IMO during maintenance and especially during bulking.

Furthermore, if you haven't planned well, and your out shopping or something, 1 litre of skim milk is an OK meal replacement.

However, this is how it may work: 2 litres of milk is 110 lactose, which = 55 galactose.

Now, I don't know if this is true because I read this less often, but I think galactose is like fructose - it can only enter the liver. The liver can only process 50 grams of carbs a day, any more turning to fat. When you consider that sucrose and fructose is cotained in veggies and fruit (even brocolli), this may mean that your over it doing it with the milk sugar.

I would be interested in confirmation/repudiation of this analysis. I myself have had periods where I have drunk this much milk though

Tat, can galactase enter muscle glycogen?

Interesting question, and one for the biochem textbooks.

I will have a look at some biochem pathways and let you know the fate/digestion/metabolism of lactose.

So cool I am having to review so much of my biochemical pathways and metabolic processes.

 

[Sim882]

Thanks - because otherwise I would be more willing to consume milk after workouts even while cutting (as it would be a lot of insulin for a low carb cost if that makes sense)

Interesting question, and one for the biochem textbooks.

I will have a look at some biochem pathways and let you know the fate/digestion/metabolism of lactose.

So cool I am having to review so much of my biochemical pathways and metabolic processes.

 

[ViperHMS]

Good read. Personally I love milk. For me protein shakes are not the same without milk. When im bulking I usually go through a gallon of milk in a day and a half. I just love the way it tastes, but it gets expensive. I dont know what it costs per gallon in other parts of the country, but here in the states its about $1 more a gallon than premium gas, which right now is about $3 where I live.

 

[Tatyana]

Galactose is only metabolised in the liver, it used to be used as a test of liver function.

Once it is converted so it can enter glycolysis, which is present in most cells in the body (except red blood cells).

So galactose does not directly enter your muscle.

As the info below suggests, the metabolism of glucose and galactose are under hormonal control, which means that insulin will direct nutrients to be stored, or released under the actions of glucagon. (Also cortisol, GH, thyroxine, adrenaline, nor-adrenaline either directly or indirectly)

I do wonder once the conversion of galactose occurs, if any of these metabolites are shifted to any of the other cells besides the liver.




A few bits I found on line:

Note also that it is the liver that has fructokinase and galactokinase activity. The liver is the only organ that actively metabolizes these sugars. I

Aside from sperm, no other organ has an active fructokinase. No other organ is perfused with concentrations of fructose large enough to allow reaction with hexokinase.

The liver very effectively removes absorbed fructose from the portal blood. In fact, this is necessary for uptake of fructose in the gut. Remember that transport there is passive, relying on a steep concentration gradient to drive fructose uptake.

Fructose is not a direct energy source for muscles and the brain as many of its producers claim. These tissues rely on the hexokinase catalyzed phosphorylation of glucose for energy metabolism. Sorry, but you do not become stronger and smarter by eating fructose.


Carbohydrates in food give us only three monosaccharides that are taken up from the intestine and metabolized further -Glucose, Galactose and Fructose.

Remember, sucrose (table sugar) gives us equal amounts of glucose and fructose, lactose (milk sugar) gives equal amounts of galactose and glucose.

Galactose is almost identical to glucose; remember it is only the position of the hydroxy group on carbon four that differs here. That "little" difference is enough to markedly reduce binding of galactose to hexokinase.

A specific enzyme, galactokinase, is essential to initiate galactose metabolism. Galactokinase reacts with galactose and gives us galactose-1-phosphate.

There is no direct oxidative pathway for galactose-1-P. It has to be converted to an intermediate in glucose metabolism to come further. We have an activated form of glucose, uridine diphosphoglucose (UDPG) that reacts with gal-1-P.

UDPG has a glucose-1-P "tail". Using UDPG-gal-1-P transferase, we simply exchange that "tail" with gal-1-P and convert the Gal-1-P to glucose-1-P. Another enzyme, UDPGal-UDPG isomerase "wins" back that UDPG for us and the process can start up again.

Unlike fructose metabolism, glucose and galactose metabolism are subject to precise allosteric and hormonal control. Metabolism of these sugars goes through phosphofructokinase and FDPase, two enzymes under exacting hormonal and allosteric control.


fructose is in a special class.

We are "constructed" to conserve energy. The rapid entry of fructose into glycolysis leads to fatty acid synthesis in the liver. Because fructose metabolism "fills" glycolysis with substrate at a very high rate, frequent use of sucrose (remember sucrose is a dimer of fructose and glucose) or fructose promotes fat production

 

[Sim882]

Hi tat, thanks for this.

I found the article in google you were referring to read the entire extract.

The article was basically saying fructose, sucrose, HCFS=bad, but didn't rubbish galactose in the same way. I'm not 100% sure how to interprets its commentary on galactose - i.e., once processed by the liver, could it be stored as glycogen by the rest of the body and I think that was your conclusion ("I do wonder once the conversion of galactose occurs, if any of these metabolites are shifted to any of the other cells besides the liver"). This would seem an important issue to me, given it kinda determines whether milk is a decent carb or not. For example, although it has a high insulin index, if all the carbs could be stored in the muscle, there would be little reason to exclude it PWO on a cutter even, given the benefits of its insulin producing effects at this time, plus the benefits of calcium to weight loss. Currently, I'm being too anal about this, and non eating non-fat cheese (in Aus, the best variety is 5 grams protein; 2 carb), because of fear of galactose. Perhaps this is overboard.

What is interesting is people underestimate the amount of sugar contained naturally in vegetables. For example, all of the net carbs in red peppers/capsicums is sugar, the majority being fructose. Nearly 1/2 of the the net carbs in brocolli are sugar, the majority being fructose. For most low calorie vegetables, I'd estimate 70%+ of the net carbs are sugar, with fructose often being the main supplier. This doesn't mean exclude veggies whilst cutting - of course not given their others benefits - but it does indicate the need to eliminate or severely restrict it in my opinion, as between your veggies and sweet potatoe, you are getting a decent amount of sugar anyway.

Last night for e.g. my dinner, consisting (as well as kangaroo and eggs) of 100 grams brocolli, 100 green beans, 100 cauliflower, 100 red peppers, 50 carrot, 50 onion, still contained 17 grams sugar, fructose being the main supplier. Not enough to panic about, but given I also consumed a similar amount of veggies during the day, this would at most leave room for 1 piece of fruit I would suspect. Probably none if I had use sweet potatoes instead of oats as my starchy carb source on the day.

On a side note, pumpkin, rarely included in cutters because of its GI, is one example of a low calorie veggie that is low in sugar and mainly starch! Also the best tasting (IMO). Shouldn't be excluded.

Galactose is only metabolised in the liver, it used to be used as a test of liver function.

Once it is converted so it can enter glycolysis, which is present in most cells in the body (except red blood cells).

So galactose does not directly enter your muscle.

As the info below suggests, the metabolism of glucose and galactose are under hormonal control, which means that insulin will direct nutrients to be stored, or released under the actions of glucagon. (Also cortisol, gh - growth hormone (somatropin) - , thyroxine, adrenaline, nor-adrenaline either directly or indirectly)

I do wonder once the conversion of galactose occurs, if any of these metabolites are shifted to any of the other cells besides the liver.




A few bits I found on line:

Note also that it is the liver that has fructokinase and galactokinase activity. The liver is the only organ that actively metabolizes these sugars. I

Aside from sperm, no other organ has an active fructokinase. No other organ is perfused with concentrations of fructose large enough to allow reaction with hexokinase.

The liver very effectively removes absorbed fructose from the portal blood. In fact, this is necessary for uptake of fructose in the gut. Remember that transport there is passive, relying on a steep concentration gradient to drive fructose uptake.

Fructose is not a direct energy source for muscles and the brain as many of its producers claim. These tissues rely on the hexokinase catalyzed phosphorylation of glucose for energy metabolism. Sorry, but you do not become stronger and smarter by eating fructose.


Carbohydrates in food give us only three monosaccharides that are taken up from the intestine and metabolized further -Glucose, Galactose and Fructose.

Remember, sucrose (table sugar) gives us equal amounts of glucose and fructose, lactose (milk sugar) gives equal amounts of galactose and glucose.

Galactose is almost identical to glucose; remember it is only the position of the hydroxy group on carbon four that differs here. That "little" difference is enough to markedly reduce binding of galactose to hexokinase.

A specific enzyme, galactokinase, is essential to initiate galactose metabolism. Galactokinase reacts with galactose and gives us galactose-1-phosphate.

There is no direct oxidative pathway for galactose-1-P. It has to be converted to an intermediate in glucose metabolism to come further. We have an activated form of glucose, uridine diphosphoglucose (UDPG) that reacts with gal-1-P.

UDPG has a glucose-1-P "tail". Using UDPG-gal-1-P transferase, we simply exchange that "tail" with gal-1-P and convert the Gal-1-P to glucose-1-P. Another enzyme, UDPGal-UDPG isomerase "wins" back that UDPG for us and the process can start up again.

Unlike fructose metabolism, glucose and galactose metabolism are subject to precise allosteric and hormonal control. Metabolism of these sugars goes through phosphofructokinase and FDPase, two enzymes under exacting hormonal and allosteric control.


fructose is in a special class.

We are "constructed" to conserve energy. The rapid entry of fructose into glycolysis leads to fatty acid synthesis in the liver. Because fructose metabolism "fills" glycolysis with substrate at a very high rate, frequent use of sucrose (remember sucrose is a dimer of fructose and glucose) or fructose promotes fat production

 

[Tatyana]

Interesting stuff Simm.

Where did you find the info on the types of carbs in veggies?

I would love to have a look at that.

I have recently been reading a book called natural hormonal enhancement, and in it he describes functional carbs, which is the total carbs minus the carbs from fibre.

So in fibrous veg such as brocolli, the impact of any fructose would be minimal.

The same goes for things like blueberries, I think there is only 9 g of carbs per 100 g.



I also found this, you may be interested

http://www.msu.edu/course/lbs/145/luckie/inquiriesF2003/teamcaffeine.html

 

[Sim882]

Nutritiondata.com

It tells you carbs, fibre, and sugar content, and normally itemises the sugar (e.g., glucose, fructose).

Brocolli does indeed score very highly on this (referring to your link, mushroom probably beats Brocolli in protein to carb to sugar ratio)

It's a very interesting site. it gives nutritional density ratings, based on amount of vitamins and minerals per calorie (this doesn't consider though protein or fat composition). You can search also foods based on nutrients - i.e., find out what foods have the highest or lowest amount of sat fat in a given catogery etc.

Some results that may interests you
- of fibrous veggies, many score the maximum 5 stars (e.g., brocolli, spinach). No suprise
- for starches (green peas and pumpkin are the only 5 star scores, with sweet potato 4.5 and many legumes over 4. Grains are under 4 (except brans), and brown rice is quite low (it is overrated nutritionally)
- most fruit scores moderately, although some do well, e.g., berries, lemons, apricots are over 4.
- Most nuts also score moderately (about 3), although ground flaxseed gets a 3.8, being one of more nutrition dense. People will be surprised how for example ANPB ruins there omega 3/6 ratio.
- meat doesn't score too well, but I think that's because it looks at it from a micro not macro nutrient perspective.

The site also ranks whether your diet is anti inflamatory or inflamatory, by considering your consumption of antioxidants (vitamin c, E, A, selenium), omega 3/6 ratio, and other features of your diet (sat fat, anrachoic acid, sugar).

Another great feature is the pantry device (you must register, which is free)- you can type in your diet, and it will tell you precisely macros, sugars, and micronutrients. It is much better than fitday. I think you will love the site.

Regarding your fibre comment.

I find it interesting how for different products, the "calories" for fibre are counted. E.g., all sites seem to count the fibre as carb calories for ground flax meal, but they don't for other foods, such as oat bran. Fit day counts it for psyillium husks though for example. I don't understand the inconsistency.

Interesting stuff Simm.

Where did you find the info on the types of carbs in veggies?

I would love to have a look at that.

I have recently been reading a book called natural hormonal enhancement, and in it he describes functional carbs, which is the total carbs minus the carbs from fibre.

So in fibrous veg such as brocolli, the impact of any fructose would be minimal.

The same goes for things like blueberries, I think there is only 9 g of carbs per 100 g.



I also found this, you may be interested

http://www.msu.edu/course/lbs/145/luckie/inquiriesF2003/teamcaffeine.html

 

[javaguru]

Keep the milk in moderation.

 

[SouthernLord]

Who is funding all this research on milk? The Citrus Growers of America...... I personally drink 1 pint to 1 quart a day. Usually at breakfast time.