Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below
How to install the app on iOS

Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.

Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.

napsgear
genezapharmateuticals
domestic-supply
puritysourcelabs
RESEARCHSARMSUGFREAKeudomestic
napsgeargenezapharmateuticals domestic-supplypuritysourcelabsRESEARCHSARMSUGFREAKeudomestic

Is 14 sets for back too much?

Is 14 sets for back too much?

  • Yes, waaay too much.

    Votes: 12 30.0%
  • Yes, a bit too much

    Votes: 7 17.5%
  • No, seems just right to me

    Votes: 17 42.5%
  • Hell no! Is that all you do for back?

    Votes: 4 10.0%

  • Total voters
    40
Status
Not open for further replies.
Maybe it's me, but I find 14-sets to be a tad too much. Maybe occasionally, to get over a training hump would be okay. But not all the time and for every back training day.

What we've been doin' is 4 to 5-sets of deads, followed by 3-sets pullups. And have been experiencing fantastic results. Both strength and LBM gains.

HST has a very distinctive plan in it's program layout. It's not just performing 14-sets for the sake of performing 14-sets. There is a purpose behind the volume of work presented in HST.

However that, make sure you're eating enough to cover on the recovery necessary on a high volume of training. Also, the volume of training for each person would vary. You'd have to consider training experience and other "stuff" that makes us all individual. Some people can do that high volume; others can't.
 
slinky said:
Maybe it's me, but I find 14-sets to be a tad too much. Maybe occasionally, to get over a training hump would be okay. But not all the time and for every back training day.

What we've been doin' is 4 to 5-sets of deads, followed by 3-sets pullups. And have been experiencing fantastic results. Both strength and LBM gains.

HST has a very distinctive plan in it's program layout. It's not just performing 14-sets for the sake of performing 14-sets. There is a purpose behind the volume of work presented in HST.

However that, make sure you're eating enough to cover on the recovery necessary on a high volume of training. Also, the volume of training for each person would vary. You'd have to consider training experience and other "stuff" that makes us all individual. Some people can do that high volume; others can't.

I think your back routine is a very good one. the 4-5 sets of deads probably have 3 warm ups and thats about right for heavy deads. And the 3 sets of pulldowns will do more than 15 sets of lat work if done very hard and strict like I bet you train.

Have you ever noticed that the high volume people do not train very hard?...thats because they don't need to as they are on a ton of gear. I know top competitive women that are on 200 of test and 200 of nandrolone per week and thats a hell of a steroid load for a female....so they can do anything and grow. The same can be said for the men.

At the risk of sounding like an asshole I will say this....no offense intended...

High volume does NOT work, AT ANY TIME, unless you are either VERY genetically gifted and or on steroids and a good deal of steroids.

The percentage of genetically gifted is VERY low at perhaps 2-5% of the general training population.


Frequent time in the gym is another BS thing pushed by the glossy magazines of today. Anyone not on gear will do much better being in the gym a total of three times per week on a three way split than 5 days per week. The very most a natural trainee should be in the gym is every other day on a three way split and that is if he is fairly gifted.

Also....high volume usually ruins intensity and weight progression, key factors in progress. I love putting the high volume people through my upper leg and deadlift workout. After just 2-3 working sets of sqauts in the 10-15 rep range and 2 sets of deads in the 8-10 range they are toast.
I am NOT blowing my own horn here but I am just trying to make a point.......I put my training partner through a set of heavy strict high rep squats for 12 reps. As we progressed in the set the ENTIRE gym stopped and watched. His intensity and effort was very high as he squated over 500 pounds in perfect deep form. We did this one working set of squats and one working set of deep leg presses and he was DONE his quads and had a heck of a time walking to the rack for stiff leg deadlifts.

But some will say...I have another 5 sets of hacks to do 5 sets of leg presses and 3 sets of leg extensions HA! that will do nothing but drain you of valuable recuperative powers.

Remember this , you will gain on a high volume moderate intensity routine while on steroids but not as a natural trainee.

To get over a training "hump" the worst thing you can do is to increase volume....you actually need to take a 10 day rest from weights and then come back with about 85-90% of your previous bests and then slowly work your way back to and past your previous bests.
At the very least you need to DECREASE volume and increase intensity and rest time out of the gym.

Training for the natural trainee should focus on weight progression in small to tiny increments each week or two. If your weights are going up, even very slowly, then your muscle will grow and you will progress in developement nicely.
Get some tiny plates as the 2.5 pounders are way too much to add to the bars, even in the squat, after the going gets tough.
www.fractionalplates.com
Even a 1 pound per week increase in the bench and 2-3 pounds per week in the squat is good progress. Kepp this up for months and pretty soon you are much bigger and stronger.


Most people, especially men, turn to roids because they can't make progress as a natural with their frequent high volume workouts, beyond a year or so of training.

Its a damn shame that there is SO little sound training natural advice from bodybuilders....it seems now that most of the good advice comes from power lifters. You can blame Weider and his BS magazines for all that.

One of the most important thing a natural trainee can do is to avoid reading the glossy magazines.

That said...I have used steroids but still keep my volume pretty low. I just increase intensity mostly. Dorian Yates and others have proved this to be effective.

For a good web site on natural training go to www.hardgainer.com

For a really good serious book on competitive bodybuilding buy "A Warriors Story" by Dorian Yates. Just tone down his recommended intensity a bit while not on steroids and train only three day per week on a three way split at most.
Good luck
RG




:)
 
Last edited:
Thanks, RG.

And I agree with much of what you're saying. I usually recommend a 3-day on of 5x5 training for people who have been performing volumes of sets/reps and have a 5-6 days on routine. If anything this will show them that less volume; less days can be effective. Maybe even more so.

And I do notice that people who train with high volume work do train with less intensity. I know that after a session of deadlifts, I don't want to do anything else. It takes just about every ounce of energy I have left to do the pullups; but I manage ;)

It's interesting what you said about getting over a training hump. I've gone both ways; added another rest day or added a day of high volume. It's worked both ways for me.
 
slinky said:
Thanks, RG.

And I agree with much of what you're saying. I usually recommend a 3-day on of 5x5 training for people who have been performing volumes of sets/reps and have a 5-6 days on routine. If anything this will show them that less volume; less days can be effective. Maybe even more so.

And I do notice that people who train with high volume work do train with less intensity. I know that after a session of deadlifts, I don't want to do anything else. It takes just about every ounce of energy I have left to do the pullups; but I manage ;)

It's interesting what you said about getting over a training hump. I've gone both ways; added another rest day or added a day of high volume. It's worked both ways for me.



Three days per week, training each muscle group once doing a 5X5 routine is very good and produces a good combo of strength and power. (first 2 sets are warm ups)

Well, doing high volume on a few body parts for a couple workouts can help SOME with good genetics get over a hump but I think it is risky and will not work for the vast majority . Also you cannot do this for legs and deadlifts as the intensity will drop too much. If you can't get the job done in deadlifts with 3 working sets and quads with MAYBE 4 total sets, 2 working sets of squats and two wroking sets of leg presses, then you need to take a lay off.

RG



:)
 
Nice posts as ever from both of you :) My update on this very old post .... :) .... My volume has dropped a lot, I'm still making gains.
 
Great ....thats the key to making gains without juice....high effort, low volume, infrequent trips to the gym, plenty of sleep and food.

Get some tiny weights and practise MICRO LOADING, like I mention in my sticky post above on proper steroid free training.
www.fractionalplates.com

Train in cycles. The first few weeks shouldn't be that hard and then slowly increase the poundages, and thus the intensity, until you are going all out on each non warm up set. Take a set to the point where another good rep would not be possible. This is hard work and few do it especially in the squat and deadlifts. That is generally enough intensity, although some can get away with rest pause reps and forced reps from time to time.
Never go past failure in the deadlift though.

When the going gets tough drop the weight increments to .5 to 1 pound for upper body exercises and 2-3 pounds for lower body exercises like squats. Keep this up for as long as you can and when you cannot increase the weights any more in good from for two weeks in a row then reduce the reps slightly....still trying to add small amounts of weight to the bars. At the end of the cycle you could be doing 3 working sets of 5 strict reps but you don't need to go that low in the reps if you don't want to.

Remember load is more important than time under load....so keeping the reps the same(whatever range you choose) and increasing weights progressively will work better than trying to increase the reps with the same weight.

Going from 8-9 reps with a given weight in the bench is like adding 5 pounds to the bar and keeping the weight the same at 8 reps and this is way too much to add to the bar after the going gets tough. BUT keeping the reps at 8 and adding 1 pound is possible and tricks the body into gains.

A cycle lasts as long as you are able to keep adding tiny bits of weight to the bars. This could take months. Then when you can't go any further take 10 days off from the weights. Come back with about 90% of your previous bests and slowly work your way up to and past your previous bests.

I cannot stress enough how very important focusing on increasing weights used in good form is to the natural trainee...it is absolutely key.

A steroid user doen't even have to worry about the weight used as his/her strength goes up in large jumps...they can focus on "feel", volume, or intensity alone and still make good gains.

Every time you go to the gym after the initial break in period of a training cycle, you should train VERY hard. Some people can train a muscle group more than once a week if a second day is focused on skill and is lighter. Some power lifters do this but you have to have pretty good genetics ... most natural trainees cannot do this for very long without over training.

Training for results is not rocket science or even a science at all. All it is is VERY HARD WORK on big basic movements for the most part with a focus on weight progression, sleep, and proper diet.

*** You will not get very strong and your overall upper body developement will be seriously hindered if you do not squat hard and pretty deep and do some form of deadlifts.

RG

:)
 
I love squats and deadlifts, and I'm squatting 2 - 3 times a week at the moment ... BUT, I've just started OL, that's why - none of it's to failure (in fact, we've started with very light weights to get the form down), and reps are low (3-5). I'll be focussing more on skill, speed and strength for the next while, and hope the size takes care of itself (the Oly lifters I saw a couple of weeks ago were mostly pretty damn small).

I'd like to try fractional plates someday, but I hope to making big strength gains in the next few months :)

Why do you say load is more important that TUT, RG? I thought TUT played a MAJOR part, otherwise why all the discussion about it ???
 
Well through personal experience and by listening to the experience of others I have found load is more important than time under load for making strength gains, and when you are training naturally you MUST focus on strength gains in order to see consistent muscle gains.

Now there has to be a certain amount of TIME under load of course, but as you progress away from this optimal time TIME itself become less important.

Practically speaking this is how it looks.......lets say you are doing sets of 6 in the bench press. You have a had a few break in weeks adding weight and now the 6 reps are very hard to complete, requiring a pause after each rep and deep breathing etc.

Now trying to add a SINGLE rep to that next week is going to be very hard to do while training naturally. If you got enough rest and ate well enough you could likely do it BUT it but that won't happen on a consistent basis over the following weeks.

It is a better practise to keep the reps the same at 6 and add a little weight....WHY??....because adding a single rep and trying for 7 reps would be like adding 5 pounds to the bar and keeping the reps at 6 and this is too much for the body to adapt to over the weeks of a training cycle. SO....you add say 1-2 pounds the next week...this the body can handle and adapt to and you are able to make the 6 reps..but just barely...during the time away from the bench press your body adapts to that new load by growing stronger and then you add another 1 pound etc etc. In fact the increments used can drop to as little as .5 pound per week and in some small exercises even .25 pounds after the going gets very tough in a training cycle.

You can only grow stronger without muscle gain to a certain point and then muscle growth must begin. Training with sets of 5-8 in the upper body produces as good combo of strength and mass. Quads respond best to sets of 8-15 or even 20, calves 10-15 so a little more time under load is best for them. But then again it is better to keep the reps the same and add small amounts of weight than to try to add reps each workout.

If you want to train for pure power you need to do sets lower than 5 from time to time.

There is a thing called DOUBLE PROGRESSION...that is starting off doing sets of say 6 and then trying to add REPS until you get to say 8 or 10 and THEN add weight to the point were you can only do 6 reps again. See the DOUBLE here??...adding reps and then also adding weight...Some people like to train in this manner and they get good results. Many steroid users and genetically gifted use this pattern BUT most people will do better keeping the reps the same and adding small amounts of weight to the bars weekly or at least every other week.

I can remember being stuck at 360 for 10 full reps in the high bar squat. No matter what I did I just could not get another rep.....so I started to focus on micro loading and added 2 pounds to the bar and guess what I was still able to do 10 reps....then next week I added another 2 pounds and did 10 then another 2 and another 2 and pretty soon I was doing 400 for 10 reps.....for experiment sake I then did the old 360 for 15 easy reps!
I had grow larger and stronger by adding tiny bits of weight on a weekly basis...my body was able to adapt.

BTW some of the better Olympic lifters have excellent upper leg developement from all the squats and stiff leg or Romanian deadlifts. A good Olympic lifter will teach you correct form in the high bar squat and stiif leg deadlift..unfortuantely few bodybuilders squat, or at least squat correctly.

Powerlifters squat well and deep but there style emphasizes lifting as much weight as is physically possible and this requires having the bar way down on the rear delts, more of a forward lean with more back and hip envolvement. This type of squating doesn't stimulate the quads quite as much as the high bar squat. It also requires more skill. Many powerlifters will do high bar squats in training though at least some of the time. The power squats will still build huge thighs as you can't squat a very large amount of weight without large thighs, but the focus of their training is to try and lift as much weight as possible and I take it you are more of a bodybuilder.

Once the going gets tough in the squat train them only once a week.

Good luck
RG


RG:) :)
 
Last edited:
Awesome posts Realgains! Thanks for taking the time to share all of that information. I'm glad that you pointed out the important differences between training if your natural or on juice. I find that I need to really train with a lot more intensity than my friend that uses steroids. I've found that I really can't do the same programs as her and expect any kind of results.
 
alot of good posts here, i can throw in my opinion.

i have always done the 3-4 exercises 3 working sets per exercise. but the last 4 months ive been trying a Heavy Duty 2 program. Mostly because i felt fatigued and wanted more rest between my training. My chest/back day looks like this now:

1 set pre-exhaust pec dec 6-10 reps then with no rest 1 set of incline presses 1-4 reps
1 set pre-exhaust straight arm pulldown then with no rest 1 set of reverse grip pulldowns 6-10 reps
1 set of deadlift 6-10 reps

my rep speed is 2 seconds consentric, 2 seconds static and 4 seconds eccentric.
I would never belive that this would be enough, but my body is totally shot after an ordeal like this.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom