Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below
How to install the app on iOS

Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.

Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.

napsgear
genezapharmateuticals
domestic-supply
puritysourcelabs
Research Chemical SciencesUGFREAKeudomestic
napsgeargenezapharmateuticals domestic-supplypuritysourcelabsResearch Chemical SciencesUGFREAKeudomestic

Intermittent Fasting discussion thread!!

Here is another great article from the lean gains site, in which Martin explains how fasted training can actually boost muscle growth...


Friday, December 11, 2009
Fasted Training Boosts Muscle Growth?
1:41 AM | Posted by Martin Berkhan



A recent study shows fasted training affects the post-workout anabolic response to weight training more favorably than fed-state training.

This study is very interesting to say the least, since it lends scientific support to explain the beneficial effects from both fasted-training and Leangains-style intermittent fasting. Let me give you the lowdown on this study in layman's terms.

Weight training activates enzymes and switches on genes that up regulates protein synthesis in muscles. Out of these signalling mechanisms, the phosphorylation, "activity" plainly speaking, of p70s6 kinase may serve as an indicator of muscle growth, along with other myogenic transcription factors. Myogenic meaning from within the muscle. Nutrition no doubt affects the myogenic signaling mechanisms, but it's still not fully understood to what degree.

In this study, subjects were split into two groups that were trained on two occasions separated by three weeks. The three-week rest period between sessions served as a "washout" period, in order to make sure that the prior session didn't interfere with the results obtained during the second test.

The workouts were fairly basic whole-body sessions: 3 x 8 in seven movements such as bench press, overhead press, curls and leg press.

One of the sessions (F) were performed on an empty stomach after an overnight fast.

The other session (B) was performed in the fed state. Subjects were given a breakfast of 722 kcal composed of 85% carbs, 11% protein and 4% fat, and training was initiated 90 minutes after the meal.

After the weight training session, both groups rested for 4 hours. At the one- and four-hour marks, muscle biopsies and blood tests were obtained . Participants were also also given a recovery drink to sip each hour during the rest period.

Results revealed that the F session had twice as high levels of p70s6k in comparison to the B when measured at the one-hour mark post-workout. Other myogenic transcription factors were also higher at this point, though not quite as pronounced as p70s6k. At the four-hour mark, the differences between the two groups had evened out.

Why may fasted training be beneficial for the post-workout anabolic response?

The researchers concluded that "Our results indicate that prior fasting may stimulate the intramyocellular anabolic response to ingestion of a carbohydrate/protein/leucine mixture following a heavy resistance training session. "

Among other things, increased levels of p70s6k may lead to a faster transport of amino acids into the muscle cell membranes, which should lead to a more rapid and potent anabolic response to post-workout nutrient ingestion. The effects seen on the other myogenic signaling mechanisms could also affect muscle growth through other pathways.

It seems that the increased anabolic activity seen post-workout is a compensatory response to the increased catabolism that occurs during fasted state training. Very interesting. The big question is if there would be a net difference in muscle growth at the end of the day. Training on an empty stomach will cause greater catabolism in the short run, but will it yield greater gains in the long run? Do we make a small sacrifice in order to receive a greater reward?

Well, I think we can leverage the results of this study to our benefit and sidestep the negatives if we ask ourselves why, relative to the fasted group, p70s6k and the other myogenic transcription factors were inhibited after a pre-workout meal. Or rather the highly insulinogenic pre-workout meal served in the study -- a whopping 153 g high glycemic index carbs.

There's no clear answer here, but other studies have suggested that carb intake during an endurance training can blunt the expression of several metabolic genes post-exercise. Insulin may play a role here, for sure.

Another way to think of it is that by providing nutrients to the body, exercise is experienced by the body as less of a stressor compared to fasted-state training. No need to adapt or compensate when all is provided for you. A similar phenomenon can be seen with antioxidant intake, where recent studies show that ingesting antioxidants from supplements weakens the body's own response to deal with free radicals created by training. We are making it easy for the body and that may be a suboptimal way to train.

So do I suggest everyone start training fasted from now on? Of course not. Remember, it is still not known if the net effect of fasted state training will lead to more favorable results in the long run.

However, I do suggest the following:

* Make sure that the great majority of your daily allotment of calories and carbs are ingested in the post-workout period, and not before.

* The immediate pre-workout meal should contain no more than a moderate amount of low glycemic index carbs. The exact amount would depend on many factors, total workout volume being the biggest one to consider, but a good guideline for a moderate volume weight training session is approximately 0.6 - 0.8 g carb per kilogram body weight or 0.3 - 0.4 g per pound of body weight. Have this meal 1.5 - 2.5 hours before your training session.

* For fasted sessions, ingest 10 g branched chain amino acids (BCAA) shortly prior (5-15 mins) to your training session. This does not count towards the 8-hour feeding window that I advocate post-workout; that starts with your post-workout meal. By ingesting BCAA pre-workout, we can sidestep the increased protein breakdown of fasted training while still reaping the benefits of the increased anabolic response as seen in this study. Not only that, BCAAs actually increase phosphorylation of p70s6k when ingested in the fasted state prior to training. So by training fasted, with BCAA intake prior to sessions, we get a double whammy of increased p70s6k phosphorylation that should create a very favorable environment for muscle growth in the post-workout period.


Labels: Articles, Fasted Training, Research, Training
 
Okay. I looked into it.
Quick question. Keeping 2200kcals per day, how do these macros look? I want to keep carbs fairly low, Im not totally sure where fats should be.

Protein - 250g providing 1075kcals
Carbs - 90g providing 369kcals
Fats - 80g providing 756kcals

Divided into 3 meals. first 2 are preworkout, 550kcals each.
Last is post workout at 1100kcals

Does that sound like a good start?
 
Last edited:
Okay. I looked into it.
Quick question. Keeping 2200kcals per day, how do these macros look? I want to keep carbs fairly low, Im not totally sure where fats should be.

Protein - 250g providing 1075kcals
Carbs - 90g providing 369kcals
Fats - 80g providing 756kcals

Divided into 3 meals. first 2 are preworkout, 550kcals each.
Last is post workout at 1100kcals

Does that sound like a good start?

That sounds good for the split, if 2200 cals is your target.
 
This is what I've come up with:



Two early meals (550cals each) (22.5g carbs, 60g protein, 21.4g fats)
Last meal (1100cals) (45g carbs, 130g protein, 38g fats)


Meal 1 and 2 (576cals, 24g carbs, 63.8g protein, 21.8g fats)

1serving greek yogurt
1cup egg whites
1 whole egg
11 Almonds
50g chicken breast
1tsp olive oil


Meal 3 (984.4cals, 49.5g carbs, 95.6g protein, 39.5g fats)

150g chicken breast
200g salad
1.5tbls EVOO
2scoops WTBM in water
2/3cup oats


Actual Daily Intake:
Total carbs 97.5grams/day (429cals) 20%
Total protein 223.2grams/day (959.8cals) 45%
Total fats 83.1grams/day (747.9cals) 35%
Total Cals 2136.7kcals

Goal:
Total carbs 90grams/day (369cals)17%
Total protein 250grams/day (1075cals) 49%
Total fats 80grams/day (756cals) 34%
Total Cals 2200kcals


While making the plan, I thought about how much food is in the last meal. Its alot more than Im used to eating at once, so I will build up to more food in that meal as I get used to it.

A schedule (depending on what shift I work) with at least 13-16 hour fasts. Like this.

Working 8-4
10:00am – First meal
2:00pm – Second meal
4:00pm – Workout
6:00pm – Last meal

Working 9-5
11:00am – First meal
3:00pm – Second meal
5:00pm – Workout
7:00pm – Last meal

Working 10-6
12:00pm – First meal
4:00pm – Second meal
6:00pm – Workout
8:00pm – Last meal

Working 11-7
1:00pm – First meal
5:00pm – Second meal
7:00pm – Workout
9:00pm – Last meal



I also have a preworkout, and BCAA's for during workouts. Should I use these if my main goal is fatloss?
I want to look into buying some supps aswell. Gear and N2Burn. Worth giving a shot?
I would dose the Gear at 8caps/day, and N2burn at 4caps/day, spread out of course.



Thanks for your time and effort in reading through this and your replies! Its all very much appreciated.
 
When it comes to taking pills (multi, bridge, HCGen, unleashed, etc) is it ok to take them during the fast? Or should they be taken in the feeding window?

Also, what kind of bcaa's do you use/ recommend? I bought some bulk stuff and it doesn't mix and tastes awful. I know this is kinda know about bcaa's but im just curious how you take them down.
 
This is what I've come up with:



Two early meals (550cals each) (22.5g carbs, 60g protein, 21.4g fats)
Last meal (1100cals) (45g carbs, 130g protein, 38g fats)


Meal 1 and 2 (576cals, 24g carbs, 63.8g protein, 21.8g fats)

1serving greek yogurt
1cup egg whites
1 whole egg
11 Almonds
50g chicken breast
1tsp olive oil


Meal 3 (984.4cals, 49.5g carbs, 95.6g protein, 39.5g fats)

150g chicken breast
200g salad
1.5tbls EVOO
2scoops WTBM in water
2/3cup oats


Actual Daily Intake:
Total carbs 97.5grams/day (429cals) 20%
Total protein 223.2grams/day (959.8cals) 45%
Total fats 83.1grams/day (747.9cals) 35%
Total Cals 2136.7kcals

Goal:
Total carbs 90grams/day (369cals)17%
Total protein 250grams/day (1075cals) 49%
Total fats 80grams/day (756cals) 34%
Total Cals 2200kcals


While making the plan, I thought about how much food is in the last meal. Its alot more than Im used to eating at once, so I will build up to more food in that meal as I get used to it.

A schedule (depending on what shift I work) with at least 13-16 hour fasts. Like this.

Working 8-4
10:00am – First meal
2:00pm – Second meal
4:00pm – Workout
6:00pm – Last meal

Working 9-5
11:00am – First meal
3:00pm – Second meal
5:00pm – Workout
7:00pm – Last meal

Working 10-6
12:00pm – First meal
4:00pm – Second meal
6:00pm – Workout
8:00pm – Last meal

Working 11-7
1:00pm – First meal
5:00pm – Second meal
7:00pm – Workout
9:00pm – Last meal



I also have a preworkout, and BCAA's for during workouts. Should I use these if my main goal is fatloss?
I want to look into buying some supps aswell. Gear and N2Burn. Worth giving a shot?
I would dose the Gear at 8caps/day, and N2burn at 4caps/day, spread out of course.



Thanks for your time and effort in reading through this and your replies! Its all very much appreciated.


Your plan looks pretty solid. Pre workouts are always good to use no matter your goal. Fat burners like N2Burn are great to use on cardio and rest days (I use them on those days only)

BCAAs are a necessity on workout days if you are doing fasted training. They are not needed on cardio only or rest days.
 
When it comes to taking pills (multi, bridge, HCGen, unleashed, etc) is it ok to take them during the fast? Or should they be taken in the feeding window?

Also, what kind of bcaa's do you use/ recommend? I bought some bulk stuff and it doesn't mix and tastes awful. I know this is kinda know about bcaa's but im just curious how you take them down.

I take some of my supps during the fast and some I won't take during the fast. It really depends on whether the supplement is recommended to be taken with food or not.

I will take Bridge and HCGenerate during the fast, but things like a Multi I will take with food. If possible take most of your supplements with food but it really doesn't make much difference to be honest.

For BCAAs I prefer the flavored mixed kind. I've used xtend which is pretty good, but for quite a while I've been using recoverpro which also tastes good and is a better value.
 
Is it normal to feel a bit more bloated? I notice I feel more bloated once I break my fast and trust me I closely watch my sodium intake. And I work out 7am fasted and do cardio after my workout and don't use bcaa's. Is that ok? I just can't afford em at the moment
 
Hi guys I was wondering if I could get some help....

I'm 20 years old
Currently sitting at 165lbs
Height is 5'7
Bf is around 23%

I have recently got into the fitness world even though I am overweight. I have been doing the keto diet for a few weeks now and I've lost 23lbs (used to be 188lbs). I've recently heard good things about intermittent fasting, and I want to give it a go. However I have a part time job while at university and the working hours vary day to day. Sometimes 9-6, 1-6, 8-1. This had made it difficult for me to start.

So I was wondering if you guys could give me some advice on all this as I wish to get it all sorted and start it next week along side my keto diet.

Thanks
 
Is it normal to feel a bit more bloated? I notice I feel more bloated once I break my fast and trust me I closely watch my sodium intake. And I work out 7am fasted and do cardio after my workout and don't use bcaa's. Is that ok? I just can't afford em at the moment


It is pretty normal to feel bolted when breaking fast, especially on higher cal/higher carb days. It does get better and reduces some after you've done it for a while, but it can always be a little bit of an issue and it is worse for some than others.

As for the BCAAs, they aren't necessary on the cardio days. However if you are doing fasted weight training it is pretty crucial to get some form of protein in before and after your workout for protein synthesis and for muscle breakdown. If you can't get BCAAs right now, I would use some whey protein or something until you can get some. I know you will technically be breaking your fast, but the benefit from the protein outweighs the detrimental effects of going without IMO.
 
Top Bottom