Fasting is senseless.
From what I understand (based on the research I've done on this topic), Intermittent Fasting is useful because it plays on the natural up and down swing of your body's endocrine system by manipulating calorie intake at specific time intervals to allow optimal peak testosterone and GH levels and maximizing insulin response.
If your natty, it would be a good tool to use. I've used it with tremendous success.
But if you're on cycle, its damn near pointless. Your test levels aren't fluctuating much, allowing estrogen rebound. Also, the GH to Insulin ratio wont make any significant impact on gains given you are dosing synth. test at (give or take) +400% of natural production.
If your body is in a constant state of hyper-anabolism then take advantage of it.
^This post is senseless
You're wrong bro. Tell me one advantage of fasting.
1. Higher energy level throughout the day
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WRONG. Energy comes form calories. Being in a starvation state can release cortisol and adrenaline and THAT can be confused with "energy."
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2. Easier to stay at or below my calorie limit for day.
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And into a catabolic state. You don;t need to fast to lower calories.
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3. Stronger and faster in my workouts (lifting and running respectively)
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Placebo. There's no way being in a fasted state (for more than 12 hours) produces more strength. That's basic biology.
1. It takes far longer than 12 or even 24 hours to be put into starvation state. I've done a period of using IF with no AAS where I lost substantial amounts of bodyfat (20+ pounds) while ADDING lean mass (5+ pounds). That doesn't exactly sound like starvation mode. The authors of Eat Stop Eat site studies done on troops going into basic training busting ass all day and being kept to a diet of 800 calories per day. All of them lost fat and gained muscle. True starvation mode requies far longer and stricter levels of deprivation than most people can understand.
2. Maybe you don't, but different eating patterns work for different people. For some, six small meals a day keeps them satisfied and works. Others do a big breakfast, normal lunch and small dinner. Me, I have issues with portion control and once I start eating I have a very hard time stopping. I am healthy now, but have the appetite of a fat kid. FOR ME, holding off breaking my fast works. It keeps my appetite under control. After being back on IF for two weeks, I don't even feel a hint of hunger until 2 or 3 in the afternoon. I intentionally time my workouts to be just before my fast is going to end so I can get the benefits of the IF and still ahve the benefits of the post workout shake and subsequent feeding. Will this work for everyone? No. I know plenty of people that would start to chew on their arm if they went more than a few hours without eating. Does it work for me? Hell yes.
3. It's hard for there to be a placebo when I first noticed I am stronger in a fasted state 15 years ago, a full decade before I ever heard of IF. I noticed when I was still in school that my lifts when I worked out in the morning before eating were all higher than the same workouts done after class when I'd eaten once or twice already that day.
All that being said, I only have experience (and all the research I have seen/read applies to) IF as applied in the absense of AAS. I have only done one cycle of AAS (a puretly oral cycle in the fall) and am still learning about the subject. I don't know enough to know how that would affect things, so that subject would be the realm of Rick as he's the expert in that area as far as I know.
You're wrong bro. Tell me one advantage of fasting.
I don't see how people can feel as strong or stronger on an empty stomach... I just don't see it. When going for strength/powerlifting type routines feel the need to have food in me before the workout.
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I didn't see it either until I did it. Now I know that my fasted workouts are not affected by not having a meal before. Your body is still using energy for a good amount of time from the meals the day before. The only time you may see a drop in performance in my experience is if you were going low carb for a length of time like doing CKD. That is why I don't recommend doing CKD and IF together. I recommend carb cycling, but on a smaller scale (high carbs and cals on workout days with low carbs and low cals on cardio/rest days) deplete glycogen and burn fat on those cardio/rest days and replenish glycogen and build on workout days. Eat and train for your goal![]()
How about utilizing your bodys own insulin levels to partition its nutrients better....or the fact that there are numerous studies showing that people given the same caloric level over a period of time show a bigger decrease in bodyfat when doing fasted eating vs the grazing method while maintaining the same or MORE lean mass.......but I'm not going to spell everything out for you, but take a look at my thread if you want to know or check out Martin Berkhans site Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health. I'm pretty sure he is a lot more qualified to give advice on an IF diet than you are...lol
How about utilizing your bodys own insulin levels to partition its nutrients better....or the fact that there are numerous studies showing that people given the same caloric level over a period of time show a bigger decrease in bodyfat when doing fasted eating vs the grazing method while maintaining the same or MORE lean mass.......but I'm not going to spell everything out for you, but take a look at my thread if you want to know or check out Martin Berkhans site Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health. I'm pretty sure he is a lot more qualified to give advice on an IF diet than you are...lol[/QUOTE]
Why is that bro? He's a nutritional consultant, a trainer and writes for magazines. I was doing all of those things when he was in diapers.
As for those studies I can explain to you why you're reading them incorrectly but I gotta be honest -- I ain't diggin the tude.
Remember that everything that works off cycle, works on cycle...so the benefits of IF can be further enhanced by utilizing your insulin and leptin levels. Its especially useful for recomp and cutting and I've proved it with many cycles.
As for your orals, its best to take them during your feeding window for bioavailability and digestive reasons. Stomach acids can break down orals making them less effective without food (especially fats) to protect them. Ideally half your dose with your fast breaker and the other half eight hours late with your last meal. That's what I do and it works very well![]()
You're confused. Of course people lose bodyfat faster when not taking in calories!!! lol!!! And don't worry about spelling things out. I'm sure I know at least as much about this as you.
How about utilizing your bodys own insulin levels to partition its nutrients better....or the fact that there are numerous studies showing that people given the same caloric level over a period of time show a bigger decrease in bodyfat when doing fasted eating vs the grazing method while maintaining the same or MORE lean mass.......but I'm not going to spell everything out for you, but take a look at my thread if you want to know or check out Martin Berkhans site Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health. I'm pretty sure he is a lot more qualified to give advice on an IF diet than you are...lol[/QUOTE]
Why is that bro? He's a nutritional consultant, a trainer and writes for magazines. I was doing all of those things when he was in diapers.
As for those studies I can explain to you why you're reading them incorrectly but I gotta be honest -- I ain't diggin the tude.
There no "tude" bro. I don't care about what you did or didn't do in the past. Its irrelevant to this conversation when it comes to IF. If you correctly studied IF you wouldn't have asked me to name the benefits of it, so my statement that he knows more about an IF diet is absolutely true.
The converse of the bold is not necessarily true::things that work on cycle will not necessarily work off-cycle. Maximum gain/input might not be achieved with such dieting techniques when anabolics are involved. While I do not disagree with the science behind IF, I certainly discount the fact that it is the optimal input per unit output under an AAS induced state without substantial proof.
Can anyone find any evidence of the top 10 or even 20 male bodybuilders using IF?
Maybe you misread my post. I said that people taking in the SAME CALORIC LEVEL lost more bodyfat on IF vs the traditional 4-6 meal per day plan while retaining the same amount of LBM. Some even ended with more LBM on IF.
If you know as much about IF as me, why did you ask what the benefits were?
Our ancestors conquered the world, climbing icy mountains, tracking, chasing, and slaying large and dangerous animals while fasted for many hours if not days, then gorged on the kill. They didn't awake in their caves and whip up a whey shake for breakfast to stay out of some catabolic state so they could safely preserve their muscle before embarking on the next hunt. Supplement companies would have us all believe their lies about meal frequency and shakes and potions so that they may make their billions, while we the sheeple believe those lies so long we forget how utterly simply our magnificent bodies really work.
How about utilizing your bodys own insulin levels to partition its nutrients better....or the fact that there are numerous studies showing that people given the same caloric level over a period of time show a bigger decrease in bodyfat when doing fasted eating vs the grazing method while maintaining the same or MORE lean mass.......but I'm not going to spell everything out for you, but take a look at my thread if you want to know or check out Martin Berkhans site Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health. I'm pretty sure he is a lot more qualified to give advice on an IF diet than you are...lol[/QUOTE]
Why is that bro? He's a nutritional consultant, a trainer and writes for magazines. I was doing all of those things when he was in diapers.
As for those studies I can explain to you why you're reading them incorrectly but I gotta be honest -- I ain't diggin the tude.
With alk due respect, if you go back and read your posts objectively your attitude set the tone for the responses you got. Your comments have been dismissive and show a complete disregard and borderline disrespect for anyone whose view differs from yours.
Generally speaking i am a big fan - have learned a lot from your posts and think you are a huge asset, but i think you hopped into this convo with a preset opinion and have been deadset against listening to anything that differs from that opinion.
We are all on the same team here and trying to help each other get tje best results possible. We all need to keep that in mind, even when we disagree.
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I was being facetious because I know there aren't any. I think all that particular study proves is what i've been saying for years. Catabolism is WAY overrated. That's why I thinkg "cutting cycles are bullshit. Everyone is so afraid of losing muscle when they diet and that's just not so. So in that regard, we agree.
And they died at age 35
i think everyone is getting off the point of what the OP is asking.. whether you agree with IF or not ... EVERYONE can agree that it can be done safely on AAS just do don't IF if you are taking tren or insulin.. very dangerous. you need to monitor blood sugar closely on either or you could easily end up in the hospital
The reason they died at an earlier age had nothing to do with their hunter gatherer eating habits. It had to do with the fact that they obviously don't have the benefits of modern medicine like we do. Historians did say they had the leanest and most muscular natural bodies in history as well.
IF actually increases life expectancy. I can post the link to that later if you'd like to see it. Right now I'm on my phone so I can't. I do have the link in my intermittent fasting discussion thread as well, but im not sure what page its on
Our ancestors conquered the world, climbing icy mountains, tracking, chasing, and slaying large and dangerous animals while fasted for many hours if not days, then gorged on the kill. They didn't awake in their caves and whip up a whey shake for breakfast to stay out of some catabolic state so they could safely preserve their muscle before embarking on the next hunt. Supplement companies would have us all believe their lies about meal frequency and shakes and potions so that they may make their billions, while we the sheeple believe those lies so long we forget how utterly simply our magnificent bodies really work.
dylans ancestors over there in italy drew a lot of nice shit during the renaissance, thats all i know!!
Comments like this make me fucking cringe... People rode horses for cars too man... People listened to 8 track tapes... People used rotary phones... People only had nolva and clomid... People wore bell bottoms... People did ALL KINDS OF FUCKING SHIT... Who cares? That's why new technologies, methods, etc are developed... So things can improve... I don't give a shit what anyone did back then in terms of eating... It makes no difference... They didn't have anything we have now... So what's your point? They had a lot less to work with... So what, we should deprive ourselves because they didn't have supplements we have now? This statement just fucking sucks...
This is why I stay out of diet threads anymore because EVERYONE knows EVERYTHING... Lets put it like this... If you look like Rick does, I have to say you know a little bit of what your talking about... You don't get that way by fucking magic... I DO THIS FOR A LIVING and the fact remains that ESPECIALLY WITH DIETS, it is ALMOST ALWAYS DIFFERENT FROM PERSON TO PERSON... Cycles are much different where its pretty general... Dosages, lengths etc can be different but the amount of variables are not even close to diets... RICK AND NELSON BOTH, are two VERY VERY EXPERIENCED AND KNOWLEDGEABLE GUYS and BOTH bring up strong points either way... The problem here is that what is conducive for some won't be for others... There's way too many variables... Both have so many strong points but they can BOTH HOLD TRUE dependent upon the individual, the goals, body response etc... Every study can be refuted by another study and then by another one... I hate these fucking studies... They are always countered by another and then another... Trial and error on each body is the only way to really determine what is going to work from person to person...
I do know this to hold true... Whatever the fuck those half cavemen half gorillas did doesn't mean shit right now! =)
Dylans ancestors over there in Italy drew a lot of nice shit during the Renaissance, thats all I know!!
You said it right brother. Different strokes for different folks. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Its all about figuring out what works for YOU!! You probably know better than anybody in this thread what its like to be criticized for your diet or training habits, but you and only you knows your body and what works. Not everyone has the same goals either. You and I like the aesthetic lean look, and are not trying to be pro bodybuilder size so we have a lot in common on goals even though our methods to get there may be different. I like to be that guy at the beach that males and females both envy and appreciate. Not the guy that girls look at and think "gross!"
Nelson, they LIVED all the way to 35 in blatant defiance of incredible physical stresses; it's amazing they made it that many years. You think any of us would? They died of physical trauma, years of being pummeled by physical stress above anything we face today, and that's about it. Can you imagine if they caught a break from the weather and had constant game?
Oh, wait, that's the plains Indians (who only acquired horses when the Spanish lost them).....they ate almost nothing but red meat and lived into their 80', and were 6-12 INCHES TALLER, leaner, and stronger than the whites who had degraded their physiques with bread,sweets,corn,and some salted pork. Lakota etc lived in the same Paleolithic hunter gatherer style of 50000 years prior basically.
You better believe they intermittent fasted.
Dylan, you seem to have missed my point. I was making an example of the super potential of the human being in raw form. I was saying, look what we accomplished and against what odds we did it, with bare nutrition.
My point is we do not NEED frequent feedings nor modern supplements to conquer the word as lean, mean, muscular machines. Can whey and supplements take proper foundation and make us go HIGHER? Sure. Undisputed.
My point is we don't NEED THEM.
And I'm sure ill get flamed, but you all know the story about the Russians taking a pencil into space, while the Americans spent millions on a special ball point pen that would write in zero gravity.
Perhaps the west is over thinking "diet and training" too. Just food for thought, lol.
Dylans ancestors over there in Italy drew a lot of nice shit during the Renaissance, thats all I know!!
Ohhhh, he is Italian? I was trying to find something to like about him? Ledhead approved![]()
I'm pretty sure he is in the mafia too.
Fuggetaboutit! Lol
Well the question was about whether or not intermittent fasting would work. A few of us say it will. My posts were to that effect. To advocate IFing, one must go and discuss its roots of success. That's exactly what I did. It works. Never once said supps are bad or forbidden. This is the second time I've had to reiterate that. I demonstrating proof that IF can do amazing things. Add the right supps and gear, and bigger things can be achieved. I think that's pretty much on point. If you disagree that's your prerogative. So write a post outlining your ideas. There's no need to lambast me over mine, moreover, misunderstanding my ideas on the subject anyway.
Ohhhh, he is Italian? I was trying to find something to like about him? Ledhead approved![]()
I'm pretty sure he is in the mafia too.
Fuggetaboutit! Lol
Lol... How dare you insinuate through a degrading stereotype that all Italians are connected to such a low-class organization and do not speak proper English. I would say it is a little unbecoming for a Pentecostal Preacher as yourself to use such racial undertones and stereotypes in your post. You should worship the ground I walk on and I might spare your life![]()
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