how closely related are dead lifts to squats?

[diedeadEnough]

i recently got into squats and dead lifts after being an upper body pussy for a long time. my back was really messed up though and it hurt just to pick up my curl bar off the floor. but going to the chiropracter is helping tremendously.

im adding the weight on really fast. about 10 pounds a week. and my legs are exploding.

but how should i seperate my dead lift days from squat days? i dont like doing them on the same day. when i do squats i feel it alot in my hams and quads. glutes would be second. for deads i feel it in my lower back of course the most and then glutes.

the reason i ask is because im doing a routine sort of like this:

monday -chest/ tris/ shoulders
tuesday -dead lifts/ and traps if i didnt hit them on chest day
wednesday -biceps/ upper back/ lats
thursday - squats
friday -repeat

what kind of dead lift / squat routine would you dudes recommend for me? right now im doing deads then squats 2 days later. am i hitting the same muscles twice?? or are dead lifts and squats different enough that i dont have to worry about this?

 

[shavas]

I would want to add and extra day in between those two otherwise you would probably feel some lower back fatigue when doing squats if you're going pretty heavy on your deadlift day. I do deadlifts and squats everyweek and try to take the max time in between the two otherwise I find my muscles get too sore and the chance of fatiguing my CNS increase.

 

[ExtraMile]

I would suggest taking some time off any type of deadlift until your back feels good to go. Squatting is your call, if it makes your back hurt Im sorry to say you may have to back off until your back is better.

I would also stop hitting traps with shoulders.

This is the routine you said your doing:

monday -chest/ tris/ shoulders
tuesday -dead lifts/ and traps if i didnt hit them on chest day
wednesday -biceps/ upper back/ lats
thursday - squats
friday -repeat

I would swap some stuff around, if your wanting to do a regular BBer bodypart split I would do this

Mon - Legs, Abs
Tue - Shoulders, Tri
Wed - Rest
Thur - Back, Calves
Fri - Chest, Bi

alternatively you could just do one on, one off and ignore the days just workout every other day, maybe take two days off after the leg workout.

Ill put in the exercises I would reccomend

Mon - Legs, Abs. Squats, RDL, Leg Press, Standing Calf Raise, Weighted Decline Situp
Tue - Shoulders, Tri. Military Press, Weighted Dips, Lateral Raise, Rear Delt Machine
Wed - Rest
Thur - Back, Calves. Deadlifts, Chinups, Rows, Pullovers, Seated Calf Raise
Fri - Chest, Bi. Bench Press, Incline DB Press, Flat Flyes, Straight Bar Curls

if you have the energy you could throw in some hanging leg raises after back day.

That is what I would do personally some of these exercises may not to be to your liking so you could swap them around but you get the general idea. Aslong as you swap them to something that hits the same muscle groups, like swapping weighted dips to narrow grip benchpress or swapping leg presses to lunges. Also if your doing lots of sets of squats and deads you might want not need as many other exercises on those days. Eg you could loose the rows and leg presses.

 

[bblazer]

I do squats and deads on the same day 2x/week. Like this:

Squat day:
Heavy back squats
light deads of some type (romanian, off pins, standing on a block, etc) for high reps

Deadlift day:
Heavy deads
light front squats, goblet squats, and overhead squats for high reps

The only thing that comes between these two days is my overhead pressing day.

Remember that these are major muscle groups that are made up of some of the biggest and strongest muscles in the body. To truly over train them is pretty hard to do. Which brings me to my next point...

Many people confuse soreness, pain and tiredness with overtraining. What we do causes pain, soreness and being tired. What separates that from over training is a matter of degrees. This is similar to something Vince Lombardi once said to Forrest Gregg. "Are you hurt or injured? If you are hur get your ass back out there and play. If you are injured, take a seat."

For example, if someone I coach comes to me and says "When I squat my back hurts" I think one of three things (assuming there is no outside influence like they were hit by a car the day before).

1) You are squatting wrong
2) You are using too much weight
3) You are a pussy

All 3 of those are fixable, btw.

Another way to look at it, is if you do push ups.

Lest say you knock out 50 push ups one day. Does that mean that you are precluded from benching that week because you used your tris, pecs, and front delts?

B-

 

[diedeadEnough]

I would suggest taking some time off any type of deadlift until your back feels good to go. Squatting is your call, if it makes your back hurt Im sorry to say you may have to back off until your back is better.

I would also stop hitting traps with shoulders.

This is the routine you said your doing:

monday -chest/ tris/ shoulders
tuesday -dead lifts/ and traps if i didnt hit them on chest day
wednesday -biceps/ upper back/ lats
thursday - squats
friday -repeat

I would swap some stuff around, if your wanting to do a regular BBer bodypart split I would do this

Mon - Legs, Abs
Tue - Shoulders, Tri
Wed - Rest
Thur - Back, Calves
Fri - Chest, Bi

alternatively you could just do one on, one off and ignore the days just workout every other day, maybe take two days off after the leg workout.

Ill put in the exercises I would reccomend

Mon - Legs, Abs. Squats, RDL, Leg Press, Standing Calf Raise, Weighted Decline Situp
Tue - Shoulders, Tri. Military Press, Weighted Dips, Lateral Raise, Rear Delt Machine
Wed - Rest
Thur - Back, Calves. Deadlifts, Chinups, Rows, Pullovers, Seated Calf Raise
Fri - Chest, Bi. Bench Press, Incline DB Press, Flat Flyes, Straight Bar Curls

if you have the energy you could throw in some hanging leg raises after back day.

That is what I would do personally some of these exercises may not to be to your liking so you could swap them around but you get the general idea. Aslong as you swap them to something that hits the same muscle groups, like swapping weighted dips to narrow grip benchpress or swapping leg presses to lunges. Also if your doing lots of sets of squats and deads you might want not need as many other exercises on those days. Eg you could loose the rows and leg presses.

thanks dudes you all gave me some great advice.

extramile - im gonna give this routine a try. i never actually thought of not training biceps and chest twice a week, but ill see how it works. since you still get alot of "spill over" from back and shoulders. and my back is pretty much good to go, just a little pain here and there but the squats and deadlifts are actually helping. i might add some biceps to tuesday though. but taking a day off every other day definitly wont work. i would have withdrawals lol. i lift at home too, i have just about everything i need except machines so ill switch those around too.

 

[diedeadEnough]

I do squats and deads on the same day 2x/week. Like this:

Squat day:
Heavy back squats
light deads of some type (romanian, off pins, standing on a block, etc) for high reps

Deadlift day:
Heavy deads
light front squats, goblet squats, and overhead squats for high reps

The only thing that comes between these two days is my overhead pressing day.

Remember that these are major muscle groups that are made up of some of the biggest and strongest muscles in the body. To truly over train them is pretty hard to do. Which brings me to my next point...

Many people confuse soreness, pain and tiredness with overtraining. What we do causes pain, soreness and being tired. What separates that from over training is a matter of degrees. This is similar to something Vince Lombardi once said to Forrest Gregg. "Are you hurt or injured? If you are hur get your ass back out there and play. If you are injured, take a seat."

For example, if someone I coach comes to me and says "When I squat my back hurts" I think one of three things (assuming there is no outside influence like they were hit by a car the day before).

1) You are squatting wrong
2) You are using too much weight
3) You are a pussy

All 3 of those are fixable, btw.

Another way to look at it, is if you do push ups.

Lest say you knock out 50 push ups one day. Does that mean that you are precluded from benching that week because you used your tris, pecs, and front delts?

B-

yeah i defintly agree. but are you saying that you do the same thing meaning you go heavy on squats one day, then go heavy on deadlifts only 2 days later? it was working good for me, i figured that it would be like comparing decline benching to overhead press or incline. some of the same muscle groups but different parts within that muscle group

 

[bblazer]

yeah i defintly agree. but are you saying that you do the same thing meaning you go heavy on squats one day, then go heavy on deadlifts only 2 days later? it was working good for me, i figured that it would be like comparing decline benching to overhead press or incline. some of the same muscle groups but different parts within that muscle group

Yes, I go go heavy one day, and again just 2 days later.

I'm really old to. So if all the over training stuff were as true as some bro-ology would make it out to be, I would really be screwed, and my ability to recover would be next to nil. Just isn't the case.

B-

 

[ExtraMile]

thanks dudes you all gave me some great advice.

extramile - im gonna give this routine a try. i never actually thought of not training biceps and chest twice a week, but ill see how it works. since you still get alot of "spill over" from back and shoulders. and my back is pretty much good to go, just a little pain here and there but the squats and deadlifts are actually helping. i might add some biceps to tuesday though. but taking a day off every other day definitly wont work. i would have withdrawals lol. i lift at home too, i have just about everything i need except machines so ill switch those around too.

The other option would be an upper/lower split. This would probably be better if your looking to gain alot of strength IMO and it would allow you to hit your lower body more often which is maybe what you need if you have neglected it for a long time...

 

[diedeadEnough]

The other option would be an upper/lower split. This would probably be better if your looking to gain alot of strength IMO and it would allow you to hit your lower body more often which is maybe what you need if you have neglected it for a long time...

yeah i was kind of doing that for a while. i had deads and squats on the same day but i sepereted upper body into 2 days. im going for more strength for lower body, and more size for upper body. thats why i split lower body into 2 days. so i can really get the most out of my first couple of sets each time, which works best for me for building strength. i might also try what blazer was saying about going heavy for squats and doing dead lifts after, then vise versa the next time. but i have alot of new ideas to work with now so thanks man i appreciate the advice

 

[diedeadEnough]

bblazer - when i go really low on squats, which is how im doing it now, i feel like my hamstrings on the inner side of my thigh are about to rip out. im just pushing through it anyway. do you think this is from a problem with my form? or just from being kind of new to squats

 

[bblazer]

bblazer - when i go really low on squats, which is how im doing it now, i feel like my hamstrings on the inner side of my thigh are about to rip out. im just pushing through it anyway. do you think this is from a problem with my form? or just from being kind of new to squats

It could be from being new to them, and/or a flexibility problem. I'm assuming that you feel this driving out of the hole. Can you tell if it is your glutes or hams that fire first? It should be our glutes.

Make sure you have are stretching your hams and glutes before you squat, and that you are doing at least 5x8 warm up sets starting at about 30% or your intended max for the session and making gradual weight increases until you get to your working sets. As an example, Karl Gillingham does at least 30 min of warm up squats before he gets to his 3-5 work sets.

Your warm up sets are also a great place to be nailing down your form too, since it will be with light weight. Be sure to go slow too, and actually warm up - don't just knock them out. You should have a good sweat going before you head into your work.

B-

 

[diedeadEnough]

It could be from being new to them, and/or a flexibility problem. I'm assuming that you feel this driving out of the hole. Can you tell if it is your glutes or hams that fire first? It should be our glutes.

Make sure you have are stretching your hams and glutes before you squat, and that you are doing at least 5x8 warm up sets starting at about 30% or your intended max for the session and making gradual weight increases until you get to your working sets. As an example, Karl Gillingham does at least 30 min of warm up squats before he gets to his 3-5 work sets.

Your warm up sets are also a great place to be nailing down your form too, since it will be with light weight. Be sure to go slow too, and actually warm up - don't just knock them out. You should have a good sweat going before you head into your work.

B-

thanks man, yes im feeling this when im going back up, but only when im really low. i think my glutes are going first, but before i got serious about squats, i did leg presses in the gym for a while. and felt hardly anything in my hams, but mostly glutes. so now its like my hamstrings are working harder to make up for it. i guess i kind of answered my own question but i didnt realize it until you told me this.

for warm ups, today i started real light, 95 pounds. i did sets of 12, adding on 20 pounds everytime until i got to 185. on 185 my max might have been around 15 or so on my 5th set. but im trying not to go to failure just yet. then i worked my way back down by 20's until i got 100 reps total. i didnt really have a good sweat going though, next time ill try warming up a little more like you said.