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High protein diet bs??

http://www.unu.edu/Unupress/food2/UID07E/uid07e05.htm

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/6/1588S



Our own findings are derived from body builders (male and female), elite
rowers (male and female), none of whom were taking steroids, and obese women as well
as normal controls of both sexes. These values are shown in Fig. 2 with the regressions of
LBM v. height plotted between the minimum and maximum heights and with group
mean values shown. The influence of sex, height and obesity are clearly apparent.
Calculations made on the basis of similar height (1-7 m) indicate that excess LBM of
male and female athletes were 15-5 and 8.1 kg respectively and that of obese women was
16.8 kg. Calculation of equivalent daily accretion rates which would result in such LBM
expansion requires the time-course of the gain to be known, which we have not
documented. For both male and female athletes, their training and competition had been
proceeding for several years (obesity had been classified as such for >5 years). Assuming
the gain in LBM was made over 3 years (a likely minimum) then the accretion rate is
equivalent to a daily rate of 20-30 mg protein/kg per d for both groups of athletes, a
trivial amount equal to 34% of the dietary reference value (DRV; Department of
Health, 1991). In any case Forbes (1985) argued that athletes may simply be better
endowed with skeletal muscle at the outset, since in longitudinal studies he was unable to
demonstrate significant LBM accretion except where energy intake was excessive. He
concluded that ‘exercise and/or training has not been shown to markedly increase lean
body mass’. His view was that only with the aid of steroids was appreciable gain
achievable, reporting rates of gain of LBM in such body builders of up to 5.4 kg over 6
weeks, equivalent to about 0.3 g protein/kg per d. On the basis of our experience with
‘natural’ body builders, whilst muscle gain is difficult, nevertheless with appropriate
226 D. JOE MILLWARD AND OTHERS
exercise regimens, including concentric contractions, significant muscle hypertrophy
does occur but at a trivial rate as far as protein needs are concerned.

Thus, in the absence of steroid-induced growth, rates of protein accretion with
exercise in adults are trivial accounting for up to 30 mg/kg per d, i.e. 3% of the mean
adult protein intake in the UK (1.15 g/kg per d). Even for steroid abusers exhibiting
maximal rates of growth of LBM, the accretion would only rise to 20% of these average
intakes and of course would be a much lower proportion of the high-protein diet which
such individuals generally take. In any case the increased energy expenditure that
accompanies increased physical activity requires increased food intake and that would
supply increased protein. In the UK at present, average energy intake by males is 1.39
times the resting metabolic rate (RMR) (Gregory et al. 1990). Our studies of body
builders indicate an energy expenditure of 1.97 x RMR (Quevedo et al. 1991), requiring
a 42% increase in energy intake for balance. The average protein intake by the adult
male in the UK is 1.12 g/kg (Gregory et al. 1993), so that assuming that the
protein-energy density in the increased food intake of the body builders is the same as
that of the average UK diet (140 kJ/MJ total energy), they would have a protein intake of
1.58 g/kg, i.e. an extra 0.46 g/kg. Thus, the increased protein intake associated with
satisfying the energy needs on a normal mixed diet will supply at least 50% more protein
than the maximum rate of accretion recorded in the literature for steroid-induced weight
gain. For normal non-drug-abusing athletes, the extra protein intake will be fifteen times
the likely maximum rate of protein accretion."
 
I don't have the reference to hand, but I believe a recent study conducted on internet lifters showed a direct correlation between people saying 'you don't need a lot of protein to grow' and being under 200lbs.

I hear they're currently researching 'you don't need to lift big to get big' and coming to the same conclusions.

seriously, 400-500gs a day works if you're a decent size. Some people have great genetics (vince taylor's 50gs a day anyone?) but if you don't and you're using anabolics then why be lazy.. get the damn food in. If you have digestive problems then those need to be fixed but that's a whole other thread.
 
I watched the Hulk Hogan show, Hogan knows best and his fridge was full of egg whites and he said he ate 12 per day. He is small though . . .
 
Tweakle said:
I don't have the reference to hand, but I believe a recent study conducted on internet lifters showed a direct correlation between people saying 'you don't need a lot of protein to grow' and being under 200lbs.

I hear they're currently researching 'you don't need to lift big to get big' and coming to the same conclusions.

seriously, 400-500gs a day works if you're a decent size. Some people have great genetics (vince taylor's 50gs a day anyone?) but if you don't and you're using anabolics then why be lazy.. get the damn food in. If you have digestive problems then those need to be fixed but that's a whole other thread.

Correlations are speculative at best; they show no cause and effect relationship. Prizz's studies are logical and make sense. Your body can only synthesize so much protein before it breaks it down to use for fuel. If somone is on a high protein, low carb diet, they have even less energy for protein synthesis and their bodies have to destroy the protein to use it for energy. Correlations do make you wonder though. Do you have the study handy?
 
krishna said:
I am a personal trainor who is certified in Apex and NASM. None of their stuff or research shows that you need anywhere near 1.5 grams of protein per body weight to lose fat and build muscle. In fact, their studies show that people did better with a balanced ratio of carbs/fats/protein (45/30/25). I did hear from an apex instructor once that high amounts of protein are only necessary for extreme bodybuilding because they weigh more and have higher muscle content. Anybody have any knowledge or science on the matter?

High protein diets of what type? Just a higher ratio or Keto? For Keto, A sedentary male or female requires .8 grams of protein per pound of LBM (muscle,organs,water) if you are looking to put your body in a Ketogenic state. This amount spares your LBM. For those who are already lean and weight lift, and/or are athletes, 1.0-2.0 g/lb of LBM, depending.

A non-keto diet of 55% protein is considered high protein. Keto is a true fat burning diet totally independent of exercise and not even needed, others are strictly weight loss and dependent on fat-loss specific exercise.

The 1.5-2.0 g/lb theory still applies to BB, combined with carbs and fats. Also, put into context the protein requirement of a competing BB. With all the AAS, IGF, HGH, and T3, thier PTOR (protein turnover rate) is through the roof.

So depending on your bodytype, lifestyle, activity level, AAS usage, the protein ratio per lb of LBM changes. But every variation on high protein diets are beneficial and are proven. We're made of water and protein and we don't have the digestive systems of cattle. It's not rocket science.
 
toxicsambo said:
High protein diets of what type? Just a higher ratio or Keto? For Keto, A sedentary male or female requires .8 grams of protein per pound of LBM (muscle,organs,water) if you are looking to put your body in a Ketogenic state. This amount spares your LBM. For those who are already lean and weight lift, and/or are athletes, 1.0-2.0 g/lb of LBM, depending.

A non-keto diet of 55% protein is considered high protein. Keto is a true fat burning diet totally independent of exercise and not even needed, others are strictly weight loss and dependent on fat-loss specific exercise.

The 1.5-2.0 g/lb theory still applies to BB, combined with carbs and fats. Also, put into context the protein requirement of a competing BB. With all the AAS, IGF, HGH, and T3, thier PTOR (protein turnover rate) is through the roof.

So depending on your bodytype, lifestyle, activity level, AAS usage, the protein ratio per lb of LBM changes. But every variation on high protein diets are beneficial and are proven. We're made of water and protein and we don't have the digestive systems of cattle. It's not rocket science.

Good reply. This seems to be turning into an interesting debate. I'm not taking a side; I just want to learn. Hopefully, we can all come closer to the truth. So far, prizz is the only one posting actual studies.
 
Tweakle said:
I don't have the reference to hand, but I believe a recent study conducted on internet lifters showed a direct correlation between people saying 'you don't need a lot of protein to grow' and being under 200lbs.

I hear they're currently researching 'you don't need to lift big to get big' and coming to the same conclusions.

seriously, 400-500gs a day works if you're a decent size. Some people have great genetics (vince taylor's 50gs a day anyone?) but if you don't and you're using anabolics then why be lazy.. get the damn food in. If you have digestive problems then those need to be fixed but that's a whole other thread.

Tweakle, do you seriously eat 400-500gs of protein a day?
What is your height and weight?

I can say from experience that I can eat less then 300g a day and can weight alot more then my current 235. This is simply because of the quality of the protein and a combination of eating times and the macronutrients consumed.

I would think that at that level of protein consumption
1. A blood urea nitrogen test would show that they are urinating much of that 400-500g of protein out
http://www.webmd.com/hw/kidney_failure/aa36271.asp
2. Lowered body ph due to eating a lack of alkaline foods
http://www.alkalizeforhealth.net/salivaphtest.htm
3. Elevated liver enzyme enzymes http://www.medhelp.org/forums/gastro/messages/37841.html
4. Kidney disease http://www.nwkidney.org/home/protein.html
5. the chemical reaction of synthesizing protein leads to ammonia buildup in the body http://www.webmd.com/hw/lab_tests/hw1768.asp


I won't get into the other because they can be lessened and stopped due to supplementation.

But I think that building muscle won't be as effective if we're poisoning our body with excess nutrints that won't be used anyway...
 
gjohnson5 said:
Tweakle, do you seriously eat 400-500gs of protein a day?
What is your height and weight?

I can say from experience that I can eat less then 300g a day and can weight alot more then my current 235. This is simply because of the quality of the protein and a combination of eating times and the macronutrients consumed.

I would think that at that level of protein consumption
1. A blood urea nitrogen test would show that they are urinating much of that 400-500g of protein out
http://www.webmd.com/hw/kidney_failure/aa36271.asp
2. Lowered body ph due to eating a lack of alkaline foods
http://www.alkalizeforhealth.net/salivaphtest.htm
3. Elevated liver enzyme enzymes http://www.medhelp.org/forums/gastro/messages/37841.html
4. Kidney disease http://www.nwkidney.org/home/protein.html
5. the chemical reaction of synthesizing protein leads to ammonia buildup in the body http://www.webmd.com/hw/lab_tests/hw1768.asp


I won't get into the other because they can be lessened and stopped due to supplementation.

But I think that building muscle won't be as effective if we're poisoning our body with excess nutrints that won't be used anyway...

Good reply bro.
 
krishna said:
Good reply. This seems to be turning into an interesting debate. I'm not taking a side; I just want to learn. Hopefully, we can all come closer to the truth. So far, prizz is the only one posting actual studies.

Studies for the purpose of what? Plain and simple, you need protein to induce anabolism if you lift. If you don't ingest the correct ratio of proteins as you tear muscle fibers, how can the muscles repair itself, let alone grow? That will result in Catabolism. It's simple physiology. If you want to be a long distance runner, eat pasta all day so you have glycogen overloading your muscles to prevent fatigue and weigh 94 lbs. More muscle will be self-defeating for a runner because more muscle requires more oxygen and increased cardiac output. Every study gets flushed down the toilet because it doesnt use AAS users as subjects. AAS has a profound increase on protein synthesis. That's why Tren is great while cutting because you get increased protein synthesis and a positive nitrogen balance even on a LOW CALORIE DIET. 100 grams of protein can reult in a 15-20lb muscle gain. If you don't think you need adequate protein to build muscle, be my guest. You will lose the battle against nature.

I still don't know what answer youre looking for. Your comment "In fact, their studies show that people did better with a balanced ratio of carbs/fats/protein (45/30/25)" means what? Did better how? To just lose weight? Cut calories, simple. And different ratios effect ppl in different ways just like some gear is phenomonal for one person, but is average for the next. If you ingest an excess amount of calories over your maintenence, even if theyre all proteins, you're body will still convert them to.....fat. Unless you utilze those proteins to build muscle, and if youre on gear, a little goes a long way.

Protein spares and builds LBM no matter how you cut it and that's common knowledge. How much and where you get it is dependent on your needs. Just FYI so you know I'm not some fkn shumuck talking out my ass, I double majored in Respiratory Therapy and English, so I've been though my share of Anatomy/Physiology/Organic Chem/ and Microbiology, etc. Studies are very specific conditions to a certain group of individuals in a specific context, looking for a specific result. So you have to decipher the info correctly.
 
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