HGH question....

[monkeyballs]

The oxandrolone research is telling because it showed an increase in total GH without any change in GH pulse frequency. Had the drug been acting on GHRH centers in the brain a pulse frequency change would have been seen. This shows the oxandrolone is acting directly on the pituitary to increase GH secretion.

Great!

So in theroy, the combo of Serostim and Oxandrin should work synergistically? From the studies you have mentioned, it also seems that for my specific goals, no more than a low to moderate dose of both would be needed. This confirms what I already suspected, and it sure as hell is reasssuring since I just dropped 2K on my upcomming cycle.

Nandi,
My sport is primarilly anerobic, however aerobic endurance is still somewhat important as it allows me to maintain my high volume training schedule. So If avandia shifts cellular metabolism in favor of anerobic activities by elevating glycogen levels then how much of a drop in aerobic endurance could be expected. My guess is that its probably minimal, provided that adequate sugar intake is maintained. During any aerobic training I consume about 400 calories/hour (mostly maltodextrin) in order to maintain my weight and strength.

So if avandia elevates glycogen levels, then what effect would it have on ATP reserves?

Also,
Beezers, from what I've read in your posts, you seem to be well informed on the subject of sports nutrition. Mind if I E-mail you an outline of my diet? I'd like to hear your .2$.

 

[nandi12]

So in theory, the combo of Serostim and Oxandrin should work synergistically

Not necessarily. The Serostim will elevate IGF-1 levels and the IGF-1 acts back on BOTH the hypothalamus and pituitary to inhibit GH production. To quote from one study

The negative feedback exerted by insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) on GH secretion occurs at the pituitary, as well as the hypothalamic level, via stimulation of SS [ somatostatin ] and/or inhibition of GHRH release (1).

It could blunt any oxandrolone induced GH release, at while the Serostim induced IGF-1 levels are high.

I don't know what to say about Avandia and athletic performance, monkeyballs. I would just use a low dose and see if you notice any deterioration in your aerobic performance or recovery.

As you know, you can't really store ATP by increasing its concentration in tissues. This would disrupt all the reactions that are driven by differences in ATP concentrations. Instead, high energy phosphates are stored in compounds called phosphagens. In humans the relevant phosphagen is phosphocreatine. I have never seen any effect on phosphocreatine levels by Avandia or other antidiabetic drugs described. It is a very good question and I will see if I can find anything.


(1) J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1999 Jan;84(1):285-90

Effects of recombinant human insulin-like growth factor I administration on growth hormone (GH) secretion, both spontaneous and stimulated by GH-releasing hormone or hexarelin, a peptidyl GH secretagogue, in humans.

Ghigo E, Gianotti L, Arvat E, Ramunni J, Valetto MR, Broglio F, Rolla M, Cavagnini F, Muller EE

 

[monkeyballs]

Thanks for the info.

Let me get this straight...exGH inhibits GH secretion to a degree that is not compensated for by the spike in natural GH from Ox use.

Got it.

The ATP issue:

So that's why inj ATP is essentially useless.

If cellular glycogen levels are raised by avandia...which should facilitate anaerobic glycolysis...wouldn't exahusted ATP reserves be replenished quicker...Which Should lead to greater anerobic recovery?

I think I'm starting to bleed out of my ears.

Another issue:
I have hit a slight roadblock. I've been reading up on avandia, and it appears that there is an interaction between Oxandrin and avandia.

This is from the Oxandrin sight.

Drug Interactions:
Oral hypoglycemic agents:
Oxandrolone may inhibit the metabolism of oral hypoglycemic agents.

Avandia is an oral hypoglycemic med correct? So Oxandrin would inhibit the metabolism of Avandia.

From what I've been able to find so far, this probably means that the min effective dose is probably a little more than I previously imagined. Or Does Ox totally inhibit the metabolism of these types of medication?


I'll fashion a crude tourniquet around my jugular vein and I'm going to continue to look for research. I'll post whatever I can find before I pass out.

 

[nandi12]

From what I've been able to find so far, this probably means that the min effective dose is probably a little more than I previously imagined. Or Does Ox totally inhibit the metabolism of these types of medication?

By inhibiting the metabolism of the oral hypoglycemic agents the oxandrolone INCREASES their effect; they stay active longer in the bloodstream. This is sort of analogous to taking grapefruit juice with certain drugs to inhibit their metabolim and increase their effectiveness.

http://author.emedicine.com/PED/topic101.htm

Oxandrolone (Oxandrin) -- Considered to be one of the safer anabolic steroids available and has gained orphan drug status to treat Turner syndrome, constitutional delayed growth or puberty of boys, and alcoholic hepatitis. Recently it has been used to treat AIDS wasting syndrome. Hepatotoxicity more commonly observed in the group of 17 alpha alkylated androgen has not been observed. Successful prevention of HANE is reported with oxandrolone when other androgens did not.

Adult Dose Not established; limited data suggests 2.5 mg PO tid initially; may adjust dose to response

Pediatric Dose Not established; limited data suggests 0.1 mg/kg/d PO initially; may adjust dose to response

Contraindications Documented hypersensitivity; carcinoma of prostate or breast; nephrosis; hypercalcemia

Interactions; May increase effect of warfarin or oral hypoglycemic agents; may increase fluid retention when coadministered with glucocorticoids

Go easy on the rat poison while you're taking anavar.

 

[ironmaster]

Let me get this straight...exGH inhibits GH secretion to a degree that is not compensated for by the spike in natural GH from Ox use.

But do we care? ExGH impacts natural secretion (for a matter of hours, not days or weeks). If I lose my .5iu of secretion and inject 4iu's through out the day, I'm still way ahead. You young guys with your 1.5iu's are still ahead as well. And I'm not going to care if high IGF levels also downregulate secretion, for the same reason.
With insulin, androgens, and a 17aa........this stack works.....right??

I don't know, MB......with GH/insulin(not Avandia), ox, and maybe some test suspension or prop if far enough away from testing, and I think this meets your criteria.

I keep saying this.....I'm improving with age. So somehow despite all the contradictory articles, there is a way to go off auto pilot that works. But I look at this from a bb'ing perspective, not as a tested athlete.

 

[nandi12]

There is an interesting effect in GH feedback control, IM, that seems to be age dependent. The study linked to below showed older people are less sensitive to the feedback inhibition of endogenous GH when exogenous rIGF-1 is administered.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/82/9/2996

The authors concluded that:

"In conclusion, intravenous infusion of exogenous rhIGF-I, in doses as low as 3 µg/kg·h, suppresses GH release in fasted young and older adults, and this GH-suppressive effect of rhIGF-I most likely is exerted independently of its glucose- lowering action. Advancing age is associated with an apparent reduction in sensitivity to the GH-suppressive effects of exogenous IGF-I. Because the circulating IGF-I concentrations produced by the rhIGF-I infusion approximated those under physiological conditions, these results suggest that increased sensitivity to the negative feedback effects of endogenous IGF-I is not a cause of the aging-associated decline in GH secretion. "

This is consistent with other research showing that older people experience a greater rise in GH and IGF-1 levels than younger people when testosterone is administered. Perhaps the rise in IGF-1 due to the testosteone is more effective in reducing natural GH secretion in the younger people, leading to a smaller net increase in GH/IGF.

 

[monkeyballs]

But do we care? ExGH impacts natural secretion (for a matter of hours, not days or weeks). If I lose my .5iu of secretion and inject 4iu's through out the day, I'm still way ahead. You young guys with your 1.5iu's are still ahead as well. And I'm not going to care if high IGF levels also downregulate secretion, for the same reason.
With insulin, androgens, and a 17aa........this stack works.....right??

I don't know, MB......with GH/insulin(not Avandia), ox, and maybe some test suspension or prop if far enough away from testing, and I think this meets your criteria.

Well said IM. I guess I was just confriming that I was wrong on the idea that Ox and GH would work synergistically. I guess it's important not to stray too far from the bottom line here. GH/Slin/AS...they work.

As for Ox and avandia, I now see how Ox actually increases the effiecency of a low dose of avandia by slowing it's metabolism.

And as for the rat poision, If I need an anti-coagulant while on Ox, I'll think twice.

IM, and Nandi- my aversion to test is very simple. I believe, based off my cycle history, that test in any form would cause me to blow up like a balloon. I gained 10+ pounds of solid bulk from a cycle of upjohn winny at 50mgs EOD. I got gyno from a moderate dose of fucking andro products. I think I'm very responsive to hormones, hence my decison to stay on a low dose of a low androgen. I think with test/GH/slin, I'd gain enough weight that I would begin to hinder my athletic performance.

GH/Ox/avandia seems more appropriate. Eat right, Rest enough, train like a fucking madman...that's all I need.

 

[SUST-MAN]

if your doing a long HGH cycle....including Steroids...

It would probably be a great idea to bridge in between your cycles with Ox & Avandia.......right?

This might be the best bridge for HGH users!

 

[ironmaster]

You made my day here with that report, Nandi. I'm looking at another b'day coming up shortly.....it's good to know that getting old has a few advantages.
I agree wholeheartedly. I generally tell young guys not to spend their money on GH. I don't see them with the strong results that my old fart friends obtain. The exception, of course, being elite competing bb'ers and athletes like our friend Monkeyballs.

 

[nandi12]

I came across this paper yesterday while reading up on Avandia. Not only do the thiazolidinediones enhance glucose transport into cells, they increase amino acid uptake as well. I searched the Medline database and could find no evidence that any other antidiabetic drug has this effect. This effect is surprising to me since the amino acid transport system is completely different than the glucose transport system in cells. The one thing they both have in common is that they are sensitive to insulin. The authors concluded that

"In addition to its insulin-mimetic effect on system A transport, troglitazone increased the sensitivity of cells to insulin. As mentioned above, the stimulatory effect of insulin on system A is presumed to be primarily transcriptional. Troglitazone markedly enhanced the sensitivity of this effect of insulin, with a 4- to 5-fold shift in the dose-response curve."

So these drugs induce a 4 to 5-fold increase in the rate of amino acid uptake for a given plasma level of insulin. That is impressive.

All this is sounding too good to be true. I'm sure there will turn out to be some hideous side effect or influence on athletic performance that will spoil the party.

Here is a link to the study:

http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/139/3/832