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HGH question....
- Thread starter The Man Child
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They work well as anabolic and fat reducing drugs, but each one causes insulin resistance. GH seems to cause it by interfering with the insulin signalling process (1). The body maintains normal glucose levels by producing more insulin, but the higher insulin levels probably decrease the amount of fat that would be burned if GH didn't raise insulin. Hence the advantage of using insulin sensitizing drugs for cutting while on GH. If all one cares about is growth, then I wouldn't worry about excess insulin. In fact, as I mentioned above, I would take even more insulin.
Androgens, on the other hand appear to cause insulin resistance not by interfering with insulin signalling, but by interfering with the action of the enzyme glycogen synthase, which makes glycogen out of glucose (2). Hence the idea to supplement with an insulin sensitizing drug that increases glycogen synthase, or just taking more insulin, which does the same thing.
(1) Diabetes 2001 Aug;50(8):1891-900
Growth hormone induces cellular insulin resistance by uncoupling phosphatidylinositol 3-kinase and its downstream signals in 3T3-L1 adipocytes.
Takano A, Haruta T, Iwata M, Usui I, Uno T, Kawahara J, Ueno E, Sasaoka T, Kobayashi M.
(2) Diabetes 1996 May;45(5):615-21
Mechanisms behind insulin resistance in rat skeletal muscle after oophorectomy and additional testosterone treatment.
Rincon J, Holmang A, Wahlstrom EO, Lonnroth P, Bjorntorp P, Zierath JR, Wallberg-Henriksson H.
Androgens, on the other hand appear to cause insulin resistance not by interfering with insulin signalling, but by interfering with the action of the enzyme glycogen synthase, which makes glycogen out of glucose (2). Hence the idea to supplement with an insulin sensitizing drug that increases glycogen synthase, or just taking more insulin, which does the same thing.
(1) Diabetes 2001 Aug;50(8):1891-900
Growth hormone induces cellular insulin resistance by uncoupling phosphatidylinositol 3-kinase and its downstream signals in 3T3-L1 adipocytes.
Takano A, Haruta T, Iwata M, Usui I, Uno T, Kawahara J, Ueno E, Sasaoka T, Kobayashi M.
(2) Diabetes 1996 May;45(5):615-21
Mechanisms behind insulin resistance in rat skeletal muscle after oophorectomy and additional testosterone treatment.
Rincon J, Holmang A, Wahlstrom EO, Lonnroth P, Bjorntorp P, Zierath JR, Wallberg-Henriksson H.
Yes, SUST-MAN.........basically that's the point of the discussion in this thread. Our endocrine system runs on a complex "auto-pilot" that utilizes feed back defense mechanisms to keep things at normal levels for the average joe. Elite athletes and bodybuilders seek to control the body compositions by taking the endocrine system off auto pilot and controlling it manually for a while through polypharmacy.
GH negatively impacts insulin sensitivity, so we seek ways to overcome (insulin dosing, Avandia, gluco, etc.) GH stimulates the release of IGF-1, which is necessary for anabolism, but it appears that the presence of both in quantity causes a negative impact on GH production and GH supplementation......and the mass building effects of IGF-1. And, we seek to do this without permanently breaking the auto pilot.
EPO has some benefits for the bodybuilder. It's common to look "flat" at showtime after serious dieting and the use of diuretics to squeeze out the last bit of water. Epogen will plump those muscles up nicely. Sounds like it's not useful for the strictly tested athlete. What about blood doping, MB?
Nandi, while you are at the library, here's some citations that seem to touch on the polypharmaceutical issue:
Mani Maran R.R., et al. Endocr J. 47(2):111-8, 2000
Grinspoon S. et al. New England Journal of Medicine, 1999
Painson J.C., et al. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 278(5):E933-40, 2000.
Demling R.H. Burns 25(3):215-21, 1999.
Juul, A., et al. Horm Res. 1998;49(6):269-78.
Keenan B.S., et al. Metabolism 1996 Dec;45(12):1521-6
GH negatively impacts insulin sensitivity, so we seek ways to overcome (insulin dosing, Avandia, gluco, etc.) GH stimulates the release of IGF-1, which is necessary for anabolism, but it appears that the presence of both in quantity causes a negative impact on GH production and GH supplementation......and the mass building effects of IGF-1. And, we seek to do this without permanently breaking the auto pilot.
EPO has some benefits for the bodybuilder. It's common to look "flat" at showtime after serious dieting and the use of diuretics to squeeze out the last bit of water. Epogen will plump those muscles up nicely. Sounds like it's not useful for the strictly tested athlete. What about blood doping, MB?
Nandi, while you are at the library, here's some citations that seem to touch on the polypharmaceutical issue:
Mani Maran R.R., et al. Endocr J. 47(2):111-8, 2000
Grinspoon S. et al. New England Journal of Medicine, 1999
Painson J.C., et al. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 278(5):E933-40, 2000.
Demling R.H. Burns 25(3):215-21, 1999.
Juul, A., et al. Horm Res. 1998;49(6):269-78.
Keenan B.S., et al. Metabolism 1996 Dec;45(12):1521-6
Why does looking so good....have to be so hard!
You guys should come up with a perfect HGH cycle and post it in the BEST OF section. I know...it all depends on age, goals, dedication, cash, ETC.
But just a guideline thread....for beginners.
I'm starting my growth cycle in 7 days....and i couldnt have done it without you guys. Iron, Nandi....and even you monkey! hehe
YOU ALL GET KARMA!
Thanks again!
You guys should come up with a perfect HGH cycle and post it in the BEST OF section. I know...it all depends on age, goals, dedication, cash, ETC.
But just a guideline thread....for beginners.
I'm starting my growth cycle in 7 days....and i couldnt have done it without you guys. Iron, Nandi....and even you monkey! hehe
YOU ALL GET KARMA!
Thanks again!
ok so let me see if I can talk myself out of the confusion.
If you are fat, looking to cut and put some lbm on. Insulin is the enemy. Less insulin is better becuase the more sensitive you are the less is made. If you are resisitive more insulin is made to overcome it but the more insulin you have the easier you put on fat.
So, for a cutting person, GH(low dose which would be?), AAS, IGF-1, and Avandia is what is needed. I know its another can of worms but what about adding Capoten, and Yohimburn as DrJMW has theorized?
For someone looking to just put on size such as a hardgainer, GH, AAS, IGF-1, and Insulin(Humalog) would be best.
What about adding insulin to the already insulin resistant person? If they kept their diet clean as a whistle for the 2hours or so Humalog is evident would they only get the muscle building benefits and not the fat benefits?
Another questrion, will Avandia fix the insulin resistance? Will anything fix it? or is that person always insulin resistant?
Thanks for such a great thread fellas.
If you are fat, looking to cut and put some lbm on. Insulin is the enemy. Less insulin is better becuase the more sensitive you are the less is made. If you are resisitive more insulin is made to overcome it but the more insulin you have the easier you put on fat.
So, for a cutting person, GH(low dose which would be?), AAS, IGF-1, and Avandia is what is needed. I know its another can of worms but what about adding Capoten, and Yohimburn as DrJMW has theorized?
For someone looking to just put on size such as a hardgainer, GH, AAS, IGF-1, and Insulin(Humalog) would be best.
What about adding insulin to the already insulin resistant person? If they kept their diet clean as a whistle for the 2hours or so Humalog is evident would they only get the muscle building benefits and not the fat benefits?
Another questrion, will Avandia fix the insulin resistance? Will anything fix it? or is that person always insulin resistant?
Thanks for such a great thread fellas.
Anyone else?monkeyballs
New member
ironmaster said:
For the strictly tested athlete, I can't imagine how EPO use could go undetected. It's not like AS which only facilitates training, EPO is literally instant endurance. Aerobic performance is increased dramatically after only a few doses. Anyone with a coach who closely monitors progress would have to notice. As for blood doping, yes, it's great, and virtually undetectable.
The only drawback is that it's hard to go solo and blood dope. Running an IV and shooting your own blood is something that I would probably only feel comfortable doing with medical supervison. Something which I'm not going to get.
"Excuse me, trainer, do you think you could give me hand for a second"
I think you see my problem.
Also, just a word of precaution. EPO and dehydrated BB's is probably a very dangerous combo IMO. I don't know much about BBing, but I do know that prior to a show all water is usually sucked out of the body by any means neccesary. EPO and diuretics is a sure fire way to end up with an embolism. I'm not sure how prevalient EPO use is amongst BB's in the context you mentioned, but if it's fairly common, I'd be amazed if nobody ends up with a severe stroke, or worse yet, dies.
Back to GH.
So IM or Nandi, based of my proposed upcoming cycle, What do you think a nice dose of avandia would be to add? It seems like a nice addition; low sides, somewhat cheap, shouldn't result in heavy weight gain. And since the hypertrophic components of exGH use are boosted by retaining insulin sensitivity, it seems like the best way to maximize my GH results.
I believe that I have good insulin sensitivity, so a very low dose would probably suffice. I've been on a high carb diet as long as I've been training, and I've never been above 9% bf at any point in my life. I also slightly ectomorphic as I'm 6'1 195.
From what I've read thus far, as little as 2mgs ED has been shown significantly improve insulin sensitivity in mild cases of type two diabetes. This is probably where I would fall.
So GH use is actually similar to a mild case of type 2 diabetes?
Here is an intresting link to the avandia web site. It includes a little cartoon that is like "insulin for dummies", as well as some other intresting facts for the layman.
http://www.avandia.com/right_for_you/aairesistance/iranimation.jsp
The effects of GH on insulin resistance seem to be dose and gender related. I was reading a paper on this the other day. The abstract is here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11994330&dopt=Abstract
The low dose regimen seemed in this study anyway to improve insulin sensitivity. By low dose the authors mean lower than 0.0033 mg/kgBW per day. At 3IU per mg and a body mass for an adult male of 90kg (significantly larger than the average adult male but not atypical for a bodybuilder) that is 0.9 IU/day.
In the paper the researchers attributed the increase in insulin sensitivity to IGF-1. Since IGF-1, as the name implies, has insulin like action and actually decreases insulin production from beta cells, for a given blood glucose level the body produces less insulin while on the low dose GH. The diabetogenic effect of GH swamps the antidiabetogenic effects of the IGF as GH dose increases.
At the doses used in replacement therapy and by bodybuilders the insulin sensitizing effect of IGF loses out and insulin resistance develops.
Studies of Avandia and other drugs in its class show that the more insulin a person has, the better the drugs work. So in a reasonably normal person low doses of Avandia are probably adequate. In a person who has had type II diabetes for years and whose beta cells are burning out larger doses would be needed.
Also monkeyballs, is your sport more aerobic or anarobic? Avandia shifts the cellular metabolism from the former to the latter by lowering triglyceride levels in muscle and elevating glycogen levels, by virtue of stimulating glycogen synthase.
That graphic is cute. The Avandia comes down like a bolt from the heavens and fixes everything.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11994330&dopt=Abstract
The low dose regimen seemed in this study anyway to improve insulin sensitivity. By low dose the authors mean lower than 0.0033 mg/kgBW per day. At 3IU per mg and a body mass for an adult male of 90kg (significantly larger than the average adult male but not atypical for a bodybuilder) that is 0.9 IU/day.
In the paper the researchers attributed the increase in insulin sensitivity to IGF-1. Since IGF-1, as the name implies, has insulin like action and actually decreases insulin production from beta cells, for a given blood glucose level the body produces less insulin while on the low dose GH. The diabetogenic effect of GH swamps the antidiabetogenic effects of the IGF as GH dose increases.
At the doses used in replacement therapy and by bodybuilders the insulin sensitizing effect of IGF loses out and insulin resistance develops.
Studies of Avandia and other drugs in its class show that the more insulin a person has, the better the drugs work. So in a reasonably normal person low doses of Avandia are probably adequate. In a person who has had type II diabetes for years and whose beta cells are burning out larger doses would be needed.
Also monkeyballs, is your sport more aerobic or anarobic? Avandia shifts the cellular metabolism from the former to the latter by lowering triglyceride levels in muscle and elevating glycogen levels, by virtue of stimulating glycogen synthase.
That graphic is cute. The Avandia comes down like a bolt from the heavens and fixes everything.
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