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Example of how Bibllical History is contrived (made up)

People are gay because their relatives raped them when they were young?

The only thing this thread right here has proven is there are dumb ass Christians out there so wrapped up in their own hallucinations that reality must be on a different planet for them. With exhibits like these, no wonder people laugh at them so much.
 
Science, by definition, can't be wrong. It is merely a set of observations and likely explanations. Nothing is claimed to be 100% true with no chance of being false. Even laws are proven untrue sometimes. However, unlike Christianity, if something that was believed in science can be proven untrue, or less likely than another explanation, science is will change the dominate theory. Unlike Christianity which will instead make up some lame/completely out there excuse and never admit to being wrong ('The devil did it to trick us!', or 'It's there to test your faith')
 
JonPee said:
Science, by definition, can't be wrong. It is merely a set of observations and likely explanations. Nothing is claimed to be 100% true with no chance of being false. Even laws are proven untrue sometimes. However, unlike Christianity, if something that was believed in science can be proven untrue, or less likely than another explanation, science is will change the dominate theory. Unlike Christianity which will instead make up some lame/completely out there excuse and never admit to being wrong ('The devil did it to trick us!', or 'It's there to test your faith')

Good call
 
Lestat said:
so basically your copy of the Bible doesn't say that David killed Goliath.

yet how many people teach that story to their children?
yes it does say that David killed Goliath. Everything is the same, except where it says "teh brother of Goloath" - there is no "brother. So there is actually 2 people that killed Goliath...lol :lmao:In teh Davids story he is reffered as Goliath only once, when he came out of teh tent
 
ok, seriously, for all those that blindly believe in the Bible - please open your eyes. You tell us to read the Devine book and we have. Now you read soemthing that we recomend. Go read "The Bible as history" by Werner Keller. You will find proof that things happened as the Bible describes - the historical events like battles or description where a certain prophet lived etc. Also you will find a lot of misteries unveiled (like the birds that fell off the sky and Moses told the Israely people its a miracle from God), a lot of them explained and quite a lot of them that dont make any sence and cant be placed in any time of history (like Joseph being a vesir for the pharaoh, impossible cuz Egyptians saw Jews as the lowest level of nation, the most hated). The flood, the running away from Egypt, the water from teh rock, the burning bush....all this is analized from every possible aspect.


Lets say the story of Adam and Eve was really true. That God (the all loving God) casted all the misery upon the rest of the human race because his children didnt obey him. Lets say you are a mother and are making some choclate chip cookies cuz guests are coming. Your two kids are staring at the oven and you know that they are just gonna be all over the cookies and you tell them - dont you dare touch them, if you do you will be grounded and punished. Well, you take them out of the oven and place them on the kitchen counter. Kids as kids, curious, they go and take a cookie and eat it. You come back, see their faces covered with cookie crumbles and you do what? Kick them out of the house and curse them that them and their own kids and their grand kids and so on live in misery for eternety? I dont think so.
 
foreigngirl said:
ok, seriously, for all those that blindly believe in the Bible - please open your eyes. You tell us to read the Devine book and we have. Now you read soemthing that we recomend. Go read "The Bible as history" by Werner Keller. You will find proof that things happened as the Bible describes - the historical events like battles or description where a certain prophet lived etc. Also you will find a lot of misteries unveiled (like the birds that fell off the sky and Moses told the Israely people its a miracle from God), a lot of them explained and quite a lot of them that dont make any sence and cant be placed in any time of history (like Joseph being a vesir for the pharaoh, impossible cuz Egyptians saw Jews as the lowest level of nation, the most hated). The flood, the running away from Egypt, the water from teh rock, the burning bush....all this is analized from every possible aspect.


Lets say the story of Adam and Eve was really true. That God (the all loving God) casted all the misery upon the rest of the human race because his children didnt obey him. Lets say you are a mother and are making some choclate chip cookies cuz guests are coming. Your two kids are staring at the oven and you know that they are just gonna be all over the cookies and you tell them - dont you dare touch them, if you do you will be grounded and punished. Well, you take them out of the oven and place them on the kitchen counter. Kids as kids, curious, they go and take a cookie and eat it. You come back, see their faces covered with cookie crumbles and you do what? Kick them out of the house and curse them that them and their own kids and their grand kids and so on live in misery for eternety? I dont think so.
the only problem is...
God didnt cast trouble upon us... we've brought it upon ourselves...
He only lets us... so it is our will...
 
theprofessor said:
the only problem is...
God didnt cast trouble upon us... we've brought it upon ourselves...
He only lets us... so it is our will...
you are missing the point of my example. If your kids didnt listen to you only once, and you are all loving father as God is, would you throw them out of your blessed and fruitfull house into the cruel world when they are not prepared for it one bit? Would you really never take them back? Would you tell your daughter - because you ate this cookie that I told you not to, you will suffer in childbirth? Would YOU as a father be as cruel as God was towards his first children that were just curious as your own?
 
theprofessor said:
the only problem is...
God didnt cast trouble upon us... we've brought it upon ourselves...
He only lets us... so it is our will...

If god created everything (which the bible clearly states he did) then he created evil and hell and suffering and torment. We could only bring upon ourselves something that previously existed. I'm sure you will deny that god created all these things, which leads me to point out another contradiction. The bible said god did create EVERYTHING. Well torment and hate is apart of EVERYTHING. So either god didn't create everything (even though the bible said he did) or he is a hateful asshole that likes to torture people. Take your pick. Another contradiction: How can anything imperfect come from something perfect? If god is perfect, and he created everything, then how does anything imperfect exist? You say he gave us free will. Well if free will is not perfect, then how could it come from a perfect god. It is impossible for anything imperfect to come from something perfect by definition of perfection. So either hate and sin and torment and evil are also perfect, or god is not perfect. Take your pick, it's a contradiction for god to be perfect and for anything imperfect to exist if everything came from him. So many contradictions in the bible. Christianity is probably one of the most screwed up religions in existence.
 
How can one USE the Bible to discredit the Bible? How can you accept one portion as truth and not the other? Why is Second Samueel the truth and First Samuel not?


You can't have it both days. All I know is those who reject the Bible will stand before a Holy God and every knee shall bow and you will acknowledge He is God.

Lestat said:
So we all know David Killed Goliath right? As kids Christians are taught the story that a boy named David used a sling and stone to kill a Giant right?

Guess again! If this was fabricated, imagine how many other things are.

The Myth: And the Philistine [i.e., Goliath] came on and drew near unto David; and the man that bare the shield went before him. And when the Philistine looked about, and saw David, he disdained him: for he was but a youth, and ruddy, and of a fair countenance. And the Philistine said unto David, Am I a dog, that thou comest to me with staves? And the Philistine cursed David by his gods. And the Philistine said to David, Come to me, and I will give thy flesh unto the fowls of the air, and to the beasts of the field. Then said David to the Philistine, Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to thee in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom thou hast defied. This day will the LORD deliver thee into mine hand; and I will smite thee, and take thine head from thee; and I will give the carcases of the host of the Philistines this day unto the fowls of the air, and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel. And all this assembly shall know that the LORD saveth not with sword and spear: for the battle is the Lord’s, and he will give you into our hands. And it came to pass, when the Philistine arose, and came and drew nigh to meet David, that David hasted, and ran toward the army to meet the Philistine. And David put his hand in his bag, and took thence a stone, and slang it, and smote the Philistine in his forehead, that the stone sunk into his forehead; and he fell upon his face to the earth. So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and with a stone, and smote the Philistine, and slew him; but there was no sword in the hand of David. Therefore David ran, and stood upon the Philistine, and took his sword, and drew it out of the sheath thereof, and slew him, and cut off his head therewith. And when the Philistines saw their champion was dead, they fled. (1 Sam. 17:41-51.)

The Reality: The real killer of Goliath was Elhanan, who belonged to “The Thirty,” King David’s elite fighting cadre.

The story of how young David armed with only a slingshot and stones defeated a well-armored giant Philistine warrior named Goliath has become one of the most famous tales in all the bible. The slain enemy’s name has become a synonym for “huge” and the phrase “David and Goliath” has become a literary cliché for a confrontation between opponents of unequal strength. Unfortunately, David didn’t kill Goliath, and he wasn’t a youth when Goliath died.

According to the King James translation of 2 Sam. 21:19,

And there was again a battle in Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam.

Although this translation says Elhanan slew the brother of Goliath, the words “the brother of” do not appear in the Hebrew text. The actual wording of the passage says that Elhanan slew Goliath, not his brother.

The addition of these words in the English translation came about for two reasons. One, the translators didn’t want to contradict the earlier story attributing the act to David, especially since David is so dramatically linked to Christ in Christian tradition. (Christ’s credentials as Messiah, according to biblical prophesies, depend upon his descent from David.) Two, the author of 1 Chr. 20:5, written centuries after the verse in 2 Sam 21:17 and faced with the same contradiction, wrote,

Elhanan the son of Jair slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, whose spear staff was like a weaver’s beam.
The English translators, relying on 1 Chr. 20:5, inserted the words “the brother of” into 2 Sam. 21:19.

Several clues indicate that later redactors gave David credit for what had originally been attributed to Elhanan.

In the version crediting David, after Goliath is slain, Saul says,

Whose son is this youth? And Abner said, As thy soul liveth, O king, I cannot tell. And the king said, Inquire thou whose son the stripling is. (1 Sam. 17:55.)

If David were the killer, Saul would have known who he was because David was already a favorite in the royal court.

And David came to Saul, and stood before him: and he loved him greatly; and he became his armourbearer. And Saul sent to Jesse, saying, Let David, I pray thee, stand before me; for he hath found favour in my sight. (1 Sam. 16:21-22.)

If David found favor in Saul’s sight, how could Saul not know whom he had just sent out to fight with Goliath?

After David killed Goliath, the text says that he brought the head to Jerusalem, but during Saul’s reign Jerusalem was in the hands of the Jebusites. It didn’t come into Israelite hands, according to the bible, until after David became king. This suggests that in the original story David was already king when Goliath died.

Coincidentally, in the version crediting Elhanan with killing Goliath, David is already king, and Elhanan is a member of David’ elite fighting group known as “The Thirty.”

The Elhanan version also retains some of the original mythical flavor of the contest. It is one of a sequence of four short stories about individual members of “The Thirty” killing four different giants. Interestingly, in the introductory verse to these four stories about Elhanan and the others, we are told that “David waxed faint,” had grown tired.

Although Elhanan’s father is called Jaareoregim in the verses about Elhanan’s victory over Goliath, the listing of the members of David’s “Thirty” calls the father Dodo. Since the other three giant killers also belong to “The Thirty,” this is the clearly same Elhanan. The connection between Elhanan and Dodo may have been the inspiration for crediting David with Elhanan’s triumph. In Hebrew, the name Dodo is spelled DWDW and David is spelled DWD. The two names are virtually identical and stem from the same root, meaning “beloved.” Dodo and David are also both called Bethlehemites, adding another reason why there may have been confusion over the killer’s identity.

Another indication that the pro-David version of the story borrowed from the Elhanan source comes from the contextual appearance of Goliath’s name. Throughout the David story, the name Goliath only appears twice. The several other references to this warrior simply describe him as “the Philistine” or “the Philistine of Gath.” The manner in which Goliath’s name appears suggests that it was a later insert into the story. For example, in 1 Sam. 17:23, the text reads,

And as he talked with them, behold, there came up the champion, the Philistine of Gath, Goliath by name, out of the armies of the Philistines, and spake according to the same words: and David heard them.

Since the bible had already given Goliath’s name earlier in the story and had already described his great prowess, the phrase “Philistine of Gath, Goliath by name” the addition of the words “by name” sounds artificial.

Originally, the slaying of Goliath was one of a collection of tales in which many heroes slew giants. Elhanan was one of these valiant warriors as were other members of “The Thirty,” many of whom were credited with such victories. “The Thirty” itself may have been a mythical group much like Arthur’s Knights of the Round Table. As David became the greatest hero of the Judaean court and Judaeans were eager to believe their founding king capable of great deeds, his substitution for one of the other giant killers took no great suspension of credibility.
 
Exactly

Apparently you get this junk from a website because you have a beef with Christianity or some cult offshoot.

The reality of what happened in the second set of verses you reference is at the top of the book:

1 Then there was a famine in the days of David three years, year after year; and David enquired of the LORD. And the LORD answered, It is for Saul, and for his bloody house, because he slew the Gibeonites.

David was KING in the second set of verses you reference. Therefore, this was another battle with Philistines and giants as the end of the book indicates.

You ought to read it for yourself rather than quoting misinformed websites.
 
BigRupe said:
How can one USE the Bible to discredit the Bible? How can you accept one portion as truth and not the other? Why is Second Samueel the truth and First Samuel not?


You can't have it both days. All I know is those who reject the Bible will stand before a Holy God and every knee shall bow and you will acknowledge He is God.
then how do you explain two people killing the same person at a different time fo Bible history? Did he come back from the dead?
 
BigRupe said:
How can one USE the Bible to discredit the Bible? How can you accept one portion as truth and not the other? Why is Second Samueel the truth and First Samuel not?

How can one accept Dec 25th as the day Jesus was born when it's not? Why does the Bible teach this?
 
How can you explain the story of Eve? If you look at it from today's high tech viewpoint it sounds like the world's first human cloning.

Deep sleep equals anesthesia. The removing his rib to obtain the DNA material and finally the idea that Eve was made from man solidifies it.

Virgin Mary is nothing more than invitro embryo implantation on sucha high level that a Supreme God need only speak and it happened.

The Bible and it's miracles are real and the Bible actually predicted people would not beleive.

I can not look into my childs eyes and doubt their is a Creator of life.

Only a fool or jackass could deny this wonderful creation called the Human Body, Earth and the Universe was NOT designed by a Supreme Being far above our intellect.

You see that is why people doubt miralces. In their arrogance they feel if they can't understand it or explain it then it must be a lie.

if I had the ability and go ahead 200 years into the future and bring back the technology that we will have I am sure it would look miraculous.

If I could travel back in time and show Alexander Graham Bell a cell phone or a portable TV he would be amazed and most likely think I was an alien.

If we could show George Washington the atomic bomb, tanks, cars and planes he would think we were Gods.

The things they called miracles back then are not so strange to our modern minds and in the future things that still puzzle you may seem normal.

In any case the Bible wrote of the first human cloning and surgery thousands of years before surgery was even invented. Explain that???

As
foreigngirl said:
I am not saying I dont believe in higher forces or spirits or however it is described in different religions through history. I cant deny that there is some presence, but the Bible stories of miracles dont ring too much of a truth to my ear. Quales on the shore falling off from the sky is a miracle? That happens today too. Th ebirds are merely tired from flying on their migration route. Virgin Mary holding baby Jesus? Isis holding Horus. Noah? Gilgamesh. Christmas? Mitrah
 
BigRupe said:
You can't have it both days. All I know is those who reject the Bible will stand before a Holy God and every knee shall bow and you will acknowledge He is God.

ok, great. I'll do that if and when i need to. but for the time being, I think that the lessons and tenets taught in the bible are great foundations upon which to lead a life, but I doubt a completely selfless God would want me to live my life fully and completely in His servitude. I'm thinking that the tenets and positive ways to live can be followed without walking on eggshells daily in anticipation of judgement day. Honestly, what existance is that if you are living in fear of judgement at death? Granted the "Jesus died" clause which gives you reprieve, but still...

i find the teaching beneficial to those that need guidance, and i don't discredit the fact that probably 95% of our morality in the western world is derived from Biblical beliefs, the foundation is built, and it doesnt make you a heathen to follow positive tenets and not believe....but yet in most fundamentalist's minds it does. the whole who shall deny me before my father will be denied etc...seems like a catchall for those that would stray from the straight and narrow line intended by Christianity for people to walk.

just my opinion based on my experiences.
 
foreigngirl said:
then how do you explain two people killing the same person at a different time fo Bible history? Did he come back from the dead?

I guess it never occurred to you there might be two people named Goliath? Plus 1st Samuel PREDATES 2nd Samuel.

Then you must realize that in second Samuel it says "in still ANOTHER battle..." this one took place in Gob, the first battle was at Socoh in Judah.

Hope this helps you to understand your mistake.
 
AAP said:
How can one accept Dec 25th as the day Jesus was born when it's not? Why does the Bible teach this?

I never read in the Bible that 12/25 was Christ's birthday please show me that verse that states this.
 
BigRupe said:
How can you explain the story of Eve? If you look at it from today's high tech viewpoint it sounds like the world's first human cloning.

Deep sleep equals anesthesia. The removing his rib to obtain the DNA material and finally the idea that Eve was made from man solidifies it.

Virgin Mary is nothing more than invitro embryo implantation on sucha high level that a Supreme God need only speak and it happened.

you said it, not me. I simply do not believe that Eve was created that way. I believe in what my eyes can see and that is the archeological proof of evolution. Virgin, you say? One problem is that in parthenogenesis, where a female gives birth without the intervention of the male, the child must be female also since the mother has no Y chromosome to pass on to a male offspring. The Virgin Birth violates a materialist philosophy and science based on it.

also, different translations thranslate it in different way. There is a virgin and there is a young woman. BIG difference

The Bible and it's miracles are real and the Bible actually predicted people would not beleive.

of course, every prophecy is doubted upon and that is common knowledge, nothing new here. Nobody believed Nostradamus either, until something happened and then people make it into a fullfilment

I can not look into my childs eyes and doubt their is a Creator of life.

there is - you

Only a fool or jackass could deny this wonderful creation called the Human Body, Earth and the Universe was NOT designed by a Supreme Being far above our intellect.

and you are sure its true - why? Oh, wait, cuz a book said so.

You see that is why people doubt miralces. In their arrogance they feel if they can't understand it or explain it then it must be a lie.

funny you mention this, cuz birds falling off froma sky is really a miracle that happens even today. The damn birds are tired from flying on their migration route and have to make a stop for food and water. Merely exhousted, you can pick them as if they were a tomatoe. Miracle indeed.

if I had the ability and go ahead 200 years into the future and bring back the technology that we will have I am sure it would look miraculous.

If I could travel back in time and show Alexander Graham Bell a cell phone or a portable TV he would be amazed and most likely think I was an alien.

If we could show George Washington the atomic bomb, tanks, cars and planes he would think we were Gods.

The things they called miracles back then are not so strange to our modern minds and in the future things that still puzzle you may seem normal.

you answered your own question - they will think we are Gods, but we are NOT

In any case the Bible wrote of the first human cloning and surgery thousands of years before surgery was even invented. Explain that???

lol....that was just too funny

[/QUOTE]
 
BigRupe said:
I guess it never occurred to you there might be two people named Goliath? Plus 1st Samuel PREDATES 2nd Samuel.

Then you must realize that in second Samuel it says "in still ANOTHER battle..." this one took place in Gob, the first battle was at Socoh in Judah.

Hope this helps you to understand your mistake.
my mistake? No. A mistake of the people that put together the OT.
 
BigRupe said:
I never read in the Bible that 12/25 was Christ's birthday please show me that verse that states this.

It's apart of the christian tradition, which uses the bible as its doctrine. Let's see, it's traditions are bogus, so how can you be so sure its doctrine isn't bogus also? I say it is, and I will use the bible to discredit the bible because it's one of the easiest things for any logical mind to do. A book so full of inconsistencies and contradictions is meant to be picked apart. The bible is crap, so if you're going to use it to claim truths, all you're doing is claiming crap. You say I will stand before him and be judged when I die? Why because he loves me UNCONDITIONALLY as the bible states? If he loves me unconditionally, what are these conditions that I have to meet to get into heaven? Oh darn.... looks like we just ran into ANOTHER contradiction. There is an energy which is infinite, which is life, but the god of your christian bible is a worthless falacy.
 
Im gonna write a book on the nature of God(i.e. the infinite)
for those that are ready(and not so deeply indoctrinated in the Astral Carnival) it will knock thier socks off
 
BigRupe said:
I never read in the Bible that 12/25 was Christ's birthday please show me that verse that states this.


Oh I am sorry... so the churches, not the Bible is wrong? Constantine picked the wrong date for Christ's birthday?
 
pintoca said:
wtf? I've been receiving my Xmas presents the wrong day ALL my life???


You been hunting your Easter eggs on the wrong day too.
 
Right on a couple of points:

1. Catholicism changed it.
2. Wescott and Hort, several hundred years ago changed it. -Where most translations come from.
3. Common printing and spelling errors changed it.

That is why I say original Greek and HEBREW are the accuracies and all others must agree or be false.



Prove it.

Asking me to prove is to deny you know nothing of the historical facts regarding the "book" you are attempting (weakly) to defend.

Can you prove it didn't? The old testament only had Jesus as a prophet, not Son of God. He only became Son of God in the New Testament. Somehow I don't think God sent a fax or newsflash down in the rewriting of the Old Testament and inform everyone of the previous "mistake".
 
AAP said:
Asking me to prove is to deny you know nothing of the historical facts regarding the "book" you are attempting (weakly) to defend.

Can you prove it didn't? The old testament only had Jesus as a prophet, not Son of God. He only became Son of God in the New Testament. Somehow I don't think God sent a fax or newsflash down in the rewriting of the Old Testament and inform everyone of the previous "mistake".

The old testament has no direct reference to Jesus. Some of the prophecy the christians attribute to Jesus could easily have been attributed to other prophets of the old testament. People want to believe in prophecy because it makes their illogical beliefs more justified to them, so they interpret the scriptures to suit their needs. The only prophecy I can think of that strictly relates to Jesus is when he rode in on a donkey, but Jesus knew the scriptures, and did that on purpose to give people hope. The romans wrote a lot of the prophecy into the new testament also to make it correspond with the old testament.
 
I cant believe this is still going.
 
biteme said:
I cant believe this is still going.
its a great thread.

and BigRupe, you look into your kids eyes and see what you want to see. Don't worry, you aren't the first to subscribe to some highly improbably story for the sake of believing what you want to believe.

take a step back sometime, look at things from a different perspective.

Aztecs would rip hearts out of living humans for their gods. They were simply doing what they thought was right and had to be done.

http://home.comcast.net/~burokerl/aztecs_human_sacrifices.htm

luckily we've evolved from there right, and one day we will evolve from christianity too.
 
for those of you that don't click the link, read this below.

Keep in mind that these people thought this was completely rational and made perfect sense, similar to how Christians think the story of the baby jesus makes sense, and god coming to earth to save their people.

I look at the Christian story and the Aztecs religion and I think they are equally as insane.

After Columbus found the New World, hordes of Spanish colonists settled in the West Indies. Many of the colonists were ex-soldiers no longer able to find work in Europe. They eagerly left to stake a claim in the Indies for Spain. Bored by the day to day administrations of the colonies, they became restless. They traveled westwards again, toward the new frontier. The age the Spanish Conquistadores began.

The Aztecs were their most imposing foes. The Aztecs considered themselves chosen people of the gods. Their chief god was Huitzilpochtli (the Hummingbird Wizard) who represented the sun, the warrior, and fought the Aztecs' battles with the other gods to ensure the Aztecs' survival.

Huitzilpochtli needed food to nourish him so he could continue to fight. His preferred food was human blood.

In order to keep feeding Huitzilpochtli, the Aztecs warred continuously. Their army was of the utmost importance, and they had several different factions of warriors. The Knights of the Eagle and the Knights of the Jaguar were two such bodies of troops. These were the men who went forth to capture suitable human sacrifices.

Sacrifices were taken to the tops of the Aztec pyramids and laid upon a flat stone. There, their chests were cut open and their hearts were ripped out. The bodies were then thrown down the steps of the pyramid. The Spaniards who witnessed this violence were horrified.

More than blood lust prompted these ritual sacrifices. The Aztecs believed in a concept of "tonalli" or the "animating spirit". Tonalli was believed to be carried in the blood, and since blood flowed from the heart, this was the organ that was offered up to sate the god's appetite. It was believed that without these sacrifices, all motion would stop including the movement of the sun. The Aztecs' human sacrifices were intended to keep the sun from halting its orbit.

Also, the Aztecs did not have livestock. They practiced cannibalism on their captives. After the sacrifices tumbled down the stairs, the Aztec priests removed the limbs and cooked them. The hands and thighs were delicacies.

Estimates suggest 20,000 people a year were sacrificed by the Aztec royalty. This royalty was made up of a priest class. The priests directly served the Chosen Speaker. In Tenochtitlan, the Aztec capital city (with between 150,000 and 300,00 inhabitants it was one of the biggest metropolises in the world at the time) there were five thousand priests.

The priests painted their bodies black in order to symbolize religion and war. Their hair was matted with blood from human sacrifices. They filed their teeth to sharp points.

The Aztecs never fully conquered the surrounding states because they needed a continual supply of sacrifices for Huitzilpochtli. When the Spaniards came to conquer the Aztecs, they found numerous local allies. Even so, the Aztecs were not easily defeated, and much of their legacy is remembered.
 
The Great old days.

The Power and Might of the Spaniard invader....Not the native and their BS sacrifices.
 
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foreigngirl said:
you are missing the point of my example. If your kids didnt listen to you only once, and you are all loving father as God is, would you throw them out of your blessed and fruitfull house into the cruel world when they are not prepared for it one bit? Would you really never take them back? Would you tell your daughter - because you ate this cookie that I told you not to, you will suffer in childbirth? Would YOU as a father be as cruel as God was towards his first children that were just curious as your own?
your analogy is off a bit imo...
adam and eve were grown adults... not toddlers or infants... he simply let them out into the world and gave them free will
sounds a lot better to me than making us all mindless zombies...
he did not set us out without giving man greater advantages than any beast...
no... i would not do that to my children now... but... if my children decided to do horrible things etc... at an adult age of course... i would still love them... but may not agree with what they do or support it in any way...
God dosn't give us the punishment... we dish it out on ourselves...
 
AAP said:
Why you think they say Dec 25th then?
its simply a day to celabrate... who cares what day it is... or was or will be...
that makes no difference...
if my birthday falls on a weekday... we probably wont celabrate it that day... does that not mean i didnt have a birthday celabration???
why even bring this up??? :rolleyes:
and no... dec. 25th is not in the Bible... quit making things up... get some education... ...even though I dont agree with Lestat and Krishna ...they still have valid arguments... this is just pathetic...
 
theprofessor said:
your analogy is off a bit imo...
adam and eve were grown adults... not toddlers or infants... he simply let them out into the world and gave them free will
sounds a lot better to me than making us all mindless zombies...
he did not set us out without giving man greater advantages than any beast...
no... i would not do that to my children now... but... if my children decided to do horrible things etc... at an adult age of course... i would still love them... but may not agree with what they do or support it in any way...
God dosn't give us the punishment... we dish it out on ourselves...
relatively speaking, we are toddlers and infants compared to an almighty god right? we're not even toddlers or infants, were fucking single celled ameoba
 
Lestat said:
relatively speaking, we are toddlers and infants compared to an almighty god right? we're not even toddlers or infants, were fucking single celled ameoba
we are not God...
that is what you are implying...
adam and eve were not toddlers or infants... so what you say has no meaning...
among adam and eve's environment... they were the highest on the food chain...
 
theprofessor said:
we are not God...
that is what you are implying...
adam and eve were not toddlers or infants... so what you say has no meaning...
among adam and eve's environment... they were the highest on the food chain...
we're they higher than satan who tempted them? Also, didn't god WALK WITH adam in the garden of eaden, were they higher than god?
 
Lestat said:
we're they higher than satan who tempted them? Also, didn't god WALK WITH adam in the garden of eaden, were they higher than god?
...satan is nothing... only what we let him become... they did not have to give in to temptation... they gave satan his power by submiting to his temptations...
i walk with God... spiritualy... not physicaly...
 
theprofessor said:
...satan is nothing... only what we let him become... they did not have to give in to temptation... they gave satan his power by submiting to his temptations...
i walk with God... spiritualy... not physicaly...
Uh, satan told them that the fruit from the tree would give them POWER and make them gods right?


Why would adam and eve care about that? Something IN THEIR GOD GIVEN NATURE caused them to want that.

Wake up bro, you are self delusional.
 
theprofessor said:
your analogy is off a bit imo...
adam and eve were grown adults... not toddlers or infants... he simply let them out into the world and gave them free will
sounds a lot better to me than making us all mindless zombies...
he did not set us out without giving man greater advantages than any beast...
no... i would not do that to my children now... but... if my children decided to do horrible things etc... at an adult age of course... i would still love them... but may not agree with what they do or support it in any way...
God dosn't give us the punishment... we dish it out on ourselves...


I dont think that my analogy is off. Adam and Eve were children of God, he didnt create them as infants and then watched them grow. He created them already well, grown up and they were naive, cuz they havent had any of the fruit of knowledge yet. So, yes, they are equilent to our children that are still trusting, naive and know nothing of the wicked
 
theprofessor said:
its simply a day to celabrate... who cares what day it is... or was or will be...
that makes no difference...
if my birthday falls on a weekday... we probably wont celabrate it that day... does that not mean i didnt have a birthday celabration???
why even bring this up??? :rolleyes:
and no... dec. 25th is not in the Bible... quit making things up... get some education... ...even though I dont agree with Lestat and Krishna ...they still have valid arguments... this is just pathetic...

the only thing pathetic is your attempt to defend a book of falsehoods with unintellegent drivel that only shows how dense you truly are.

And BTW thanks for the grey karma, I know you probably meant to give red, but you can't red an Elite Mod.

If 25th isn't in the bible, then why do Christians celebrate it? They make their own rules? Or just fail to follow the rules Constatine made?
 
AAP said:
If 25th isn't in the bible, then why do Christians celebrate it? They make their own rules? Or just fail to follow the rules Constatine made?
the 25th is not in the Bible. Christians celebrate it cause at the same time as christianity was evoloving, another cult was very big - Mithras. His birthday was on 25th of December. Both Mithra and Christ were visited by sheperds, Mithra performed miracle like raising the dead, healing the sick etc, before returning to heaven, Mithra had a last supper with his 12 disciples who represented teh 12 signs of zodiac. As you see, Mithras and Jesus are almost like the one and same person
 
foreigngirl said:
the 25th is not in the Bible. Christians celebrate it cause at the same time as christianity was evoloving, another cult was very big - Mithras. His birthday was on 25th of December. Both Mithra and Christ were visited by sheperds, Mithra performed miracle like raising the dead, healing the sick etc, before returning to heaven, Mithra had a last supper with his 12 disciples who represented teh 12 signs of zodiac. As you see, Mithras and Jesus are almost like the one and same person


Exactly, which is what is ignored in these arguments. Christainity is patterned after nothing more than previous mythology gods and concepts.
 
AAP said:
Exactly, which is what is ignored in these arguments. Christainity is patterned after nothing more than previous mythology gods and concepts.

Ya I read about some of the traditions too. Dec. 25th was also Zeus's birthday. Was Mithra also the one born of a virgin mother?
 
AAP said:
Exactly, which is what is ignored in these arguments. Christainity is patterned after nothing more than previous mythology gods and concepts.
yeah, I noticed. I tried to point those things out too, but hey - you cant help someone that doesnt want your help. With every argument they have, they tell us to read the Bible. Well, all of us with this mindset as you, Krishna, Lestat or me, we read it and then some. Those that argue in favour of teh Bible claiming its valid proof, they are close minded people, letting me led instead of being the leader of their own life. You can still live good and do kind things without bowing down to any religious book. All those 10 comandments are just common sence
 
Ever notice how God - though you are not to portray his image in anyway - always looks like the same pictures of Zeus with flowing white beard, white locks, etc..
 
krishna said:
Ya I read about some of the traditions too. Dec. 25th was also Zeus's birthday. Was Mithra also the one born of a virgin mother?
few stories about Mithras - some say virgin mother, some say he was miraculosly born from a female rock conceved by Gods lightening. There is similarities between him and Jesus even around the Easter celebration - Mithras rise to the sun and heavens was celebrated in spring (around Easter), when the sun rises to its highest point
 
AAP said:
And BTW thanks for the grey karma, I know you probably meant to give red, but you can't red an Elite Mod.
i know that...
it is for sheer symbolism... that you know i wanted to red you...
your name calling is pathetic and as a moderator... disgraceful...

why do you even mention that i red you? boo hoo...
 
AAP said:
Ever notice how God - though you are not to portray his image in anyway - always looks like the same pictures of Zeus with flowing white beard, white locks, etc..
ever notice how similar the picture of Mother Mary holding baby Jesus is to the egyptian godess Isis and her baby Horus?
 
I read the entire thread, and not even one well rounded logical arguement in defence of christianity. This is my favourite thread ever.

Good job guys. Lestat said we will evolve from christianity (religion), as we did evolve out of cannabalism and stupid rituals. That made my day. Gave me a lot of hope.
 
theprofessor said:
i know that...
it is for sheer symbolism... that you know i wanted to red you...
your name calling is pathetic and as a moderator... disgraceful...

why do you even mention that i red you? boo hoo...


Because it is laughable. Just as your pathetic arguements attempting to justify your brainwashed stance is.

I mean, I didn't really expect much in terms of substance for a defense as the evidence is overwhelming that religion is for the narrowminded only, but geez.... I really did expect a bit better than silly cloning theories.

Guess my expectations were too high.
 
I feel that if you are more enlightened and spiritual then we should know that the people who are in relgion need to be there to learn thier lesson.
we should be forgiving and compassionate to ALL life. Even those who do not share our same beleifs.
just my 02.
let us be a good example to EVERYONE...
 
Wulfgar said:
I feel that if you are more enlightened and spiritual then we should know that the people who are in relgion need to be there to learn thier lesson.
we should be forgiving and compassionate to ALL life. Even those who do not share our same beleifs.
just my 02.
let us be a good example to EVERYONE...


Excellent advice.
 
AAP said:
Ever notice how God - though you are not to portray his image in anyway - always looks like the same pictures of Zeus with flowing white beard, white locks, etc..
That's right.
It's all about gene/DNA memory. It is buried in everyones minds. Those that invent religions understand this and use this method to their advantage. It makes it easier for the sheeple to submit to their scheme. The image is familiar to the masses' DNA memory from millions of years of religions.

Also, all religions are cults. Some are just more popular than others.

And in my previous post, I was giving praise to the Spaniard invader, who conquered the natives of South America.
 
Christianity is the perfect example of 'Conquest by Religion'. Those that invented Christianity were physically weak,they knew they couldn't conquer the Pagan European Barbarian by Force. So they conquered the minds of a few Barbarians, then it spread like wildfire throughout Europe, as these few barbarians rampaged throughout Europe, spreading Christianity by the Sword. "Follow our religion, or we'll cut your fucking head off", said the christian. Hundreds of thousands of my ancestors were wiped out because of this alien desert religion.
 
AAP said:
Because it is laughable. Just as your pathetic arguements attempting to justify your brainwashed stance is.

I mean, I didn't really expect much in terms of substance for a defense as the evidence is overwhelming that religion is for the narrowminded only, but geez.... I really did expect a bit better than silly cloning theories.

Guess my expectations were too high.
bro... i think you are a bit off...
quote me on anything about cloning...
that was someone else...
 
this whole thread...
...is only made... started... to get the Christians all riled up...
why post like this? so what if you found some conflicting information on the internet... i could look up a million sites discrediting every religeon out there... and ones discrediting evolution as well...
You dont see Christians posting up "youre all going to hell"... "youre all wrong"... maybe i missed those...
but posting controversial... biased information is... at the least... disrespectful...
...the only reason i even respond... is to make a few points... which can be put in check.... and with every check... we offer a balance... so the argument is never settled... bottom line... Christianity is a faith based religeon...
but nobody here is forcing it upon you... so chill out and mind your manners..
 
Someone with an experience is never at the mercy of someone with only an argument. I have been in services and felt the spirit and the power of God touch me. I have never had a drunk, a high or taken a pill that parallels the way it made me feel. God or his word cannot be figured out with the five carnal senses alone. It takes a revelation to fully understand God and his word. You are all entitled to your own opinion, but don't forget, that it is all that it is; your opinion.
 
Recruit said:
Someone with an experience is never at the mercy of someone with only an argument. I have been in services and felt the spirit and the power of God touch me. I have never had a drunk, a high or taken a pill that parallels the way it made me feel. God or his word cannot be figured out with the five carnal senses alone. It takes a revelation to fully understand God and his word. You are all entitled to your own opinion, but don't forget, that it is all that it is; your opinion.
...couldnt have said it better myself bro...
 
Subzeero said:
I read the entire thread, and not even one well rounded logical arguement in defence of christianity. This is my favourite thread ever.

Good job guys. Lestat said we will evolve from christianity (religion), as we did evolve out of cannabalism and stupid rituals. That made my day. Gave me a lot of hope.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
Recruit said:
Someone with an experience is never at the mercy of someone with only an argument. I have been in services and felt the spirit and the power of God touch me. I have never had a drunk, a high or taken a pill that parallels the way it made me feel. God or his word cannot be figured out with the five carnal senses alone. It takes a revelation to fully understand God and his word. You are all entitled to your own opinion, but don't forget, that it is all that it is; your opinion.

Been there, done that. I'm convinced it's nothing more than getting caught up in the moment, allowing oneself to be manipulated by the ceremony, and the power of self-delusion.
 
Recruit said:
Someone with an experience is never at the mercy of someone with only an argument. I have been in services and felt the spirit and the power of God touch me. I have never had a drunk, a high or taken a pill that parallels the way it made me feel. God or his word cannot be figured out with the five carnal senses alone. It takes a revelation to fully understand God and his word. You are all entitled to your own opinion, but don't forget, that it is all that it is; your opinion.
bro I've felt the same exact way..... at a concert, or good play, or during great sex and yes, I've felt it at religious ceremony, of MORE THAN ONE faith! That is what proved it to me, that I could get the feeling in more than just the traditional Christian way, and others could too. Something's fishy don't you tihnk? You must question it yourself, any intelligent being would.
 
Mr. dB said:
Been there, done that. I'm convinced it's nothing more than getting caught up in the moment, allowing oneself to be manipulated by the ceremony, and the power of self-delusion.


Yep. Especially on Dec 25th, you know... the big birthday.
 
As rediculous as it sounds It makes more sense scientificaly AND with just plain old common sense that Aliens or time travelers came to earth at that time and fooled all these people than to think that god was behind all of this..... Blind faith is the only leg that most religions have to stand on. Blind faith is a great way to throw your hands up and say "well fine if you dont have blind faith, you will goto hell" That sounds more like fear to me....and fear is commonly known to be the devils tool....so who are they worshiping? God? or the devil? To think that people refuse to believe things that are obvious because the rest of the world and the media says its dumb to, yet millions believe in a book written by MEN (not god....MEN) with all its outrageous tall tales...Why? Once again because the rest of society tells them to. Most people are just lost and scarred willing to believe everyone else to fit in.....Its very sad.


Kaz
 
That's why I tend to lean towards eastern thought. Sure they have their traditions and what-not, but it's not an institution aimed at collecting obedient followers. The enlightened ones of these traditions have passed down ways of meditation and thought that helps someone figure out the truth of life and god on their own. Everyone's path is different, and they recognize this. The key to this doctrine is that all truth - everything about god and life - is already inside of you. They just try and show you ways to get to it instead of saying, "Here are the rules. This is what you have to do to get to heaven. Obey! Follow! Only our way is the right way." Funny how a buddhist will look at all people (no matter what their religion) and see the same unlimited potential in everyone. The minute a christian sees a muslim, most of the time they think that the muslim is going to hell and they begin to judge instantly without even knowing the person. There's the difference my friend.
 
theprofessor said:
this whole thread...
...is only made... started... to get the Christians all riled up...
why post like this? so what if you found some conflicting information on the internet... i could look up a million sites discrediting every religeon out there... and ones discrediting evolution as well...
You dont see Christians posting up "youre all going to hell"... "youre all wrong"... maybe i missed those...
but posting controversial... biased information is... at the least... disrespectful...
...the only reason i even respond... is to make a few points... which can be put in check.... and with every check... we offer a balance... so the argument is never settled... bottom line... Christianity is a faith based religeon...
but nobody here is forcing it upon you... so chill out and mind your manners..
I post things like this because I know its a hot topic, and if it just gets one person to think for themselves I consider it worthwhile.

I'm not out to change anyone's minds, maybe just enlighten people a teeny tiny bit.
 
krishna said:
The key to this doctrine is that all truth - everything about god and life - is already inside of you.

did you see the special about the Gospel Of Judas? In it, it shows that Jesus had that same thought on his mind too. God is within every single one of us. God is one with me, I am God.
 
foreigngirl said:
did you see the special about the Gospel Of Judas? In it, it shows that Jesus had that same thought on his mind too. God is within every single one of us. God is one with me, I am God.

Jesus even mentions this in the bible, yet christians are afraid of universiality so they interpret the scriptures according to judgement and exclusion. Jesus said we are ALL sons and daughters of god. If this is so, how are we any different than Jesus? Jesus said the kingdon of heaven is NOW. He meant that it is already inside each and every one of us. Jesus taught to be one with god.
 
Lestat said:
bro I've felt the same exact way..... at a concert, or good play, or during great sex and yes, I've felt it at religious ceremony, of MORE THAN ONE faith! That is what proved it to me, that I could get the feeling in more than just the traditional Christian way, and others could too. Something's fishy don't you tihnk? You must question it yourself, any intelligent being would.
you have felt the exact same way huh...ok this is definately bullshit argument...
how would you know what feelings we have felt?... this is ludicrous...
you do not know our experiences... do not attempt to assume that we felt what you felt...
 
krishna said:
Jesus even mentions this in the bible, yet christians are afraid of universiality so they interpret the scriptures according to judgement and exclusion. Jesus said we are ALL sons and daughters of god. If this is so, how are we any different than Jesus? Jesus said the kingdon of heaven is NOW. He meant that it is already inside each and every one of us. Jesus taught to be one with god.
yes, but when I discuss this with the Jehovas Witnesses they say that he clearly talked about heavens too. So, they stick to the generalized idea of heaven and hell and Jesus being the only son of God. I even stumbled upon an assumption about the missing years of Jesus's life in the Bible - that he probably studied Eastern mystisysam, cause his teachings were very similar to the Budha ones
 
foreigngirl said:
yes, but when I discuss this with the Jehovas Witnesses they say that he clearly talked about heavens too. So, they stick to the generalized idea of heaven and hell and Jesus being the only son of God. I even stumbled upon an assumption about the missing years of Jesus's life in the Bible - that he probably studied Eastern mystisysam, cause his teachings were very similar to the Budha ones

Agreed. I've read that too. Heaven and hell are also pagan themes. If you notice, there is no direct reference to either of them in the old testament. In the old testament, it's simply called the grave or the pit.
 
theprofessor said:
you have felt the exact same way huh...ok this is definately bullshit argument...
how would you know what feelings we have felt?... this is ludicrous...
you do not know our experiences... do not attempt to assume that we felt what you felt...
how is it a bullshit argument, you said you have felt the "spirit and the power of God touch me."

So how is my experience bullshit but your's is not? How did you know it was the power of God? Please explain that one. You went on to say that it was better than anything you felt from drugs, does that mean it was god? Please show me the proof that it was actually God's power, or simply admit you are so full of shit your eyes are bown.
 
krishna said:
Agreed. I've read that too. Heaven and hell are also pagan themes. If you notice, there is no direct reference to either of them in the old testament. In the old testament, it's simply called the grave or the pit.
yeap, "sheol" - the hebrew word that the translators made it into Hell, which in translation doesnt mean that at all.
 
I believe that those who believe in the Bible don't necessarily arrive at their beliefs in the same way. Some may have been taught it at an early age, and just carry their "religion" into adulthood. Others, however, have fallen down in their lives due to some cause such as drugs, booze, a life of crime, or whatever. Many of these people have turned their lives around only because they found salvation with God. For them, being "saved" was their only way out of their despair. Many of them have tried everything else, even other religions. It is with these people that you will NEVER convince that God doesn't exist.
Sure, anyone can "experience the moment" at a ceremony, or get engrossed in the intensity during services. But there are those people who have hit rock bottom and felt despair and hopeless, and felt God touch their heart and change them from the inside out. Many of these people forgot how to love someone else, many have been obsessed with anger or hatred, or have lived a live of debauchery for so long that they felt that they no longer had any value as a person. The power of God filled a void in their hearts where nothing else (drugs, money, women, fame, power, other religions, booze, etc...) could. Its these people who believe when the Bible says, "Jesus died for the ungodly", it was meant for them.
Its these people who will say, "I KNOW that God exists, because He touched my heart and turned my life around". Then you will have the others who will say, "I know he DOESN'T exist, because he hasn't done shit for me and the world is in turmoil". And then you will get those who will say, "I'm a religious person. Its all about following the rules of my religion".
Well, when it comes to the Bible, who was against organized religion? Jesus was. The mormons coming to your door and trying to predict prophecys. The catholics confessing sins to a priest. The jehovahs witnesses, and the rest of them that proclaim that its THEIR way or no way, Jesus was against ALL of that! Despite what the religious zealots want you and their followers to believe, here's what Jesus said about the subject:

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

He replied, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?"

He answered, "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live." (Luke 10:25-28)

It doesn't say a thing about persecuting others, hating those who don't share your beliefs, telling others that they are "wrong", feeling superior over others because your "saved" and they are not, killing in the name of "God", forcing your beliefs on others, oppressing, or all the other bullshit that people have done throughout history in the name of religion or "God".
So what does the Bible say about "religion"? "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.” In other words, as I see it, "provide for others who cannot provide for themselves, and don't get caught up in things like booze, drugs, debauchery, perversions, crime, etc..."

So when you get on a forum such as this one and question people's sanity in having the same beliefs as the woman who went on CNN and talked about hating and killing homosexuals, the same beliefs as a president who believes that "God" told him to go to war, the same beliefs that a priest who molests children has, the same beliefs as someone who comes to your door to tell you that your going to hell if you don't practice the same religion he does, the same beliefs as someone who doesn't give their kid medical attention because its against their "religion", the same beliefs as an evangelist who rakes in millions a year in donations from preaching the "gospel", maybe you should instead question whats in that person's heart.

Because when it comes right down to it, despite the people's actions in the name of "God" throughout history, all the Bible says is to be good in your heart. I don't care if someone is muslim, christian, jewish, athiest, buddist, or worships a statue of Joe Pesci, if he's genuinly kindhearted, he's OK in my book.
 
Lestat said:
how is it a bullshit argument, you said you have felt the "spirit and the power of God touch me."

So how is my experience bullshit but your's is not? How did you know it was the power of God? Please explain that one. You went on to say that it was better than anything you felt from drugs, does that mean it was god? Please show me the proof that it was actually God's power, or simply admit you are so full of shit your eyes are bown.
im saying YOU DONT KNOW WHAT I FELT... what is hard to understand about that...
i never said your experience is bullshit... i said the argument is...
all you have done to argue is twist what i say...
where did i mention ANYTHING about drugs either??? i believe the other poster said he NEVER used drugs as well... so quote us or shut up...
there is no physical 'proof' that we can show you... that is why it is faith based... but just because you felt some feeling... dont assume that is what we have... because you are not me... and you have not experienced the same as what i have... because if you had... you would not doubt the Lord...
 
Right you are megamania500. Jesus was against the church, and came to overthrow the hypocricy. Too bad man started it right back up again with the christian church. And you are right. Since when did loving god and your neighbor mean judge and condemn others who are not christians?
 
Religion, mysticism, Ouji boards, astrology, etc are all part of the Astral Carnival.
They are a bastardization of spirituality. The reason being is that they promote DEPENDANCY. Spiritual enlightenment is becoming free from these things and gaining clairity by removing the sheaths of identity that entrap us all.
 
theprofessor said:
im saying YOU DONT KNOW WHAT I FELT... what is hard to understand about that...
i never said your experience is bullshit... i said the argument is...
all you have done to argue is twist what i say...
where did i mention ANYTHING about drugs either??? i believe the other poster said he NEVER used drugs as well... so quote us or shut up...
there is no physical 'proof' that we can show you... that is why it is faith based... but just because you felt some feeling... dont assume that is what we have... because you are not me... and you have not experienced the same as what i have... because if you had... you would not doubt the Lord...
well what if I told you I felt the power of god too, but it wasn't jesus. would you believe me?
 
megamania500 said:
I believe that those who believe in the Bible don't necessarily arrive at their beliefs in the same way. Some may have been taught it at an early age, and just carry their "religion" into adulthood. Others, however, have fallen down in their lives due to some cause such as drugs, booze, a life of crime, or whatever. Many of these people have turned their lives around only because they found salvation with God. For them, being "saved" was their only way out of their despair. Many of them have tried everything else, even other religions. It is with these people that you will NEVER convince that God doesn't exist.
Sure, anyone can "experience the moment" at a ceremony, or get engrossed in the intensity during services. But there are those people who have hit rock bottom and felt despair and hopeless, and felt God touch their heart and change them from the inside out. Many of these people forgot how to love someone else, many have been obsessed with anger or hatred, or have lived a live of debauchery for so long that they felt that they no longer had any value as a person. The power of God filled a void in their hearts where nothing else (drugs, money, women, fame, power, other religions, booze, etc...) could. Its these people who believe when the Bible says, "Jesus died for the ungodly", it was meant for them.
Its these people who will say, "I KNOW that God exists, because He touched my heart and turned my life around". Then you will have the others who will say, "I know he DOESN'T exist, because he hasn't done shit for me and the world is in turmoil". And then you will get those who will say, "I'm a religious person. Its all about following the rules of my religion".
Well, when it comes to the Bible, who was against organized religion? Jesus was. The mormons coming to your door and trying to predict prophecys. The catholics confessing sins to a priest. The jehovahs witnesses, and the rest of them that proclaim that its THEIR way or no way, Jesus was against ALL of that! Despite what the religious zealots want you and their followers to believe, here's what Jesus said about the subject:

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

He replied, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?"

He answered, "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live." (Luke 10:25-28)

It doesn't say a thing about persecuting others, hating those who don't share your beliefs, telling others that they are "wrong", feeling superior over others because your "saved" and they are not, killing in the name of "God", forcing your beliefs on others, oppressing, or all the other bullshit that people have done throughout history in the name of religion or "God".
So what does the Bible say about "religion"? "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.” In other words, as I see it, "provide for others who cannot provide for themselves, and don't get caught up in things like booze, drugs, debauchery, perversions, crime, etc..."

So when you get on a forum such as this one and question people's sanity in having the same beliefs as the woman who went on CNN and talked about hating and killing homosexuals, the same beliefs as a president who believes that "God" told him to go to war, the same beliefs that a priest who molests children has, the same beliefs as someone who comes to your door to tell you that your going to hell if you don't practice the same religion he does, the same beliefs as someone who doesn't give their kid medical attention because its against their "religion", the same beliefs as an evangelist who rakes in millions a year in donations from preaching the "gospel", maybe you should instead question whats in that person's heart.

Because when it comes right down to it, despite the people's actions in the name of "God" throughout history, all the Bible says is to be good in your heart. I don't care if someone is muslim, christian, jewish, athiest, buddist, or worships a statue of Joe Pesci, if he's genuinly kindhearted, he's OK in my book.
Agreed.
 
Lestat said:
well what if I told you I felt the power of god too, but it wasn't jesus. would you believe me?
i'd tell you the devil is misleading you...
id believe you had some type of experience though....
 
Wulfgar said:
Spiritual enlightenment is becoming free from these things and gaining clairity by removing the sheaths of identity that entrap us all.

you are wulfgar but you are not....wulfgar.
 
theprofessor said:
i'd tell you the devil is misleading you...
id believe you had some type of experience though....
so what if I said you were the one being mislead? what gives my claim any more creedence then yours?
 
Lestat, its a circular argument. if one says that they felt the spirit and said spirit is backed by a book that was written by man, guided by God...um....its back to the same thing. Who is to say it was God who guided then? its arguing an ethereal moved them to write scriptures that define said ethereal.
 
Lestat said:
so what if I said you were the one being mislead? what gives my claim any more creedence then yours?
like you said before... and im not twisting what you say like you do to me...

"bro I've felt the same exact way..... at a concert, or good play, or during great sex and yes, I've felt it at religious ceremony, of MORE THAN ONE faith! That is what proved it to me, that I could get the feeling in more than just the traditional Christian way, and others could too. Something's fishy don't you tihnk? You must question it yourself, any intelligent being would."

with that said... id say your experience sounds more like anxiety to me... unless you think your god touched you during sex... or at the play :rolleyes:
you're telling me that beyond a doubt that those experiences were from some god?

your claim is that... just a claim... no proof
same goes for me
Christianity is faith based, and once again... you will either accept it... or you wont...
 
theprofessor said:
like you said before... and im not twisting what you say like you do to me...

"bro I've felt the same exact way..... at a concert, or good play, or during great sex and yes, I've felt it at religious ceremony, of MORE THAN ONE faith! That is what proved it to me, that I could get the feeling in more than just the traditional Christian way, and others could too. Something's fishy don't you tihnk? You must question it yourself, any intelligent being would."

with that said... id say your experience sounds more like anxiety to me... unless you think your god touched you during sex... or at the play :rolleyes:
you're telling me that beyond a doubt that those experiences were from some god?

your claim is that... just a claim... no proof
same goes for me
Christianity is faith based, and once again... you will either accept it... or you wont...
well at least you are starting to see my perspective.

anything you can say about my experiences, I can say about yours. You describe your experience in church, i say its anxiety as well. are you telling me beyond a dobut that those expereinces came from god?

this was the line of thinking that ultimately led me away from the church, because as I have said many times on here, I was once a devout and fervent believer. I went on missions to mexico to witness and help poor. I went to church 3 days a week, I was actively invovled in my church and youth group. I'd argue with non believers just as you argue with me and once I got tired of it or frustrated i'd just say that satan must have gotten to them and I can't do anything to fight his power.

but the difference is, when I look back on those days, I see a naieve boy who was simple deluded by a combination of parental authority and the yearning to be a part of something that everyone around me placed such importance on.

I couldn't keep the blinders on forever though, I eventually met and developed close relationships with people of different faiths. I realized they were no different than me! They believed in different gods, ceremonies, and rules that they lived their life by and they would argue equally as fervently towards those ends, sometimes even more than I would.

I realized that no merciful and just god would turn people lose like this on each other armed with nothing more but "faith" which doesn't really go far in this world. And god supposedly created this world right? You'd think he'd make things a tiny bit more clear! At least he directly told adam and eve, "don't eat from that tree" that is what i call a personal relationship with god. Do I have that? no. have I tried? yes. Do I believe it exists as a possibility for myself or anyone else for that matter, no. Do I understand WHY so many people want it so badly they are willing to overrule rational though and in some cases kill for it, yes.
 
Wulfgar said:
Religion, mysticism, Ouji boards, astrology, etc are all part of the Astral Carnival.
They are a bastardization of spirituality. The reason being is that they promote DEPENDANCY. Spiritual enlightenment is becoming free from these things and gaining clairity by removing the sheaths of identity that entrap us all.


I think we've come to similar points in our understanding of life.
 
Hi just thought i'd pop in cause this is a very popular thread and always is and I'm bored while waiting to go out.
 
megamania500 said:
I believe that those who believe in the Bible don't necessarily arrive at their beliefs in the same way. Some may have been taught it at an early age, and just carry their "religion" into adulthood. Others, however, have fallen down in their lives due to some cause such as drugs, booze, a life of crime, or whatever. Many of these people have turned their lives around only because they found salvation with God. For them, being "saved" was their only way out of their despair. Many of them have tried everything else, even other religions. It is with these people that you will NEVER convince that God doesn't exist.
Sure, anyone can "experience the moment" at a ceremony, or get engrossed in the intensity during services. But there are those people who have hit rock bottom and felt despair and hopeless, and felt God touch their heart and change them from the inside out. Many of these people forgot how to love someone else, many have been obsessed with anger or hatred, or have lived a live of debauchery for so long that they felt that they no longer had any value as a person. The power of God filled a void in their hearts where nothing else (drugs, money, women, fame, power, other religions, booze, etc...) could. Its these people who believe when the Bible says, "Jesus died for the ungodly", it was meant for them.
Its these people who will say, "I KNOW that God exists, because He touched my heart and turned my life around". Then you will have the others who will say, "I know he DOESN'T exist, because he hasn't done shit for me and the world is in turmoil". And then you will get those who will say, "I'm a religious person. Its all about following the rules of my religion".
Well, when it comes to the Bible, who was against organized religion? Jesus was. The mormons coming to your door and trying to predict prophecys. The catholics confessing sins to a priest. The jehovahs witnesses, and the rest of them that proclaim that its THEIR way or no way, Jesus was against ALL of that! Despite what the religious zealots want you and their followers to believe, here's what Jesus said about the subject:

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

He replied, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?"

He answered, "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live." (Luke 10:25-28)

It doesn't say a thing about persecuting others, hating those who don't share your beliefs, telling others that they are "wrong", feeling superior over others because your "saved" and they are not, killing in the name of "God", forcing your beliefs on others, oppressing, or all the other bullshit that people have done throughout history in the name of religion or "God".
So what does the Bible say about "religion"? "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.” In other words, as I see it, "provide for others who cannot provide for themselves, and don't get caught up in things like booze, drugs, debauchery, perversions, crime, etc..."

So when you get on a forum such as this one and question people's sanity in having the same beliefs as the woman who went on CNN and talked about hating and killing homosexuals, the same beliefs as a president who believes that "God" told him to go to war, the same beliefs that a priest who molests children has, the same beliefs as someone who comes to your door to tell you that your going to hell if you don't practice the same religion he does, the same beliefs as someone who doesn't give their kid medical attention because its against their "religion", the same beliefs as an evangelist who rakes in millions a year in donations from preaching the "gospel", maybe you should instead question whats in that person's heart.

Because when it comes right down to it, despite the people's actions in the name of "God" throughout history, all the Bible says is to be good in your heart. I don't care if someone is muslim, christian, jewish, athiest, buddist, or worships a statue of Joe Pesci, if he's genuinly kindhearted, he's OK in my book.


^^

Undefensible post. To try to argue otherwise is completely futile. If you can't read this and comprehend the shortcomings and hypocrisy of organized religion, then you are just too brainwashed.

This post sums it up EXACTLY how educated minds see it.
 
I never understood what people meant by saying "I hit rock bottom"

what the fuck is that? death?

I've had low moments, but rock bottom for me would probably involve being paralyzed, bankrupt, and without any friends or family in my life.

Even then I bet you there is something else that could be done to make my life worse, maybe blind and in constant pain?

"rock bottom" is simply another subjective state of being. My rock bottom could be another person's high point of their fucking life.
 
AAP said:
^^

Undefensible post. To try to argue otherwise is completely futile. If you can't read this and comprehend the shortcomings and hypocrisy of organized religion, then you are just too brainwashed.

This post sums it up EXACTLY how educated minds see it.
yes... there are hypocrites...
...and people find God in different ways...
so what...
 
Can anyone advocating christianity come up with a strictly logical argument in favor of their religion? By logic, I don't mean opinion or faith or heated nonsense. If anyone can do this, I will first of all give a counter-argument to it, but also most certainly give that person credit for grasping the realm of LOGIC!
 
Lestat said:
I never understood what people meant by saying "I hit rock bottom"

what the fuck is that? death?

I've had low moments, but rock bottom for me would probably involve being paralyzed, bankrupt, and without any friends or family in my life.

Even then I bet you there is something else that could be done to make my life worse, maybe blind and in constant pain?

"rock bottom" is simply another subjective state of being. My rock bottom could be another person's high point of their fucking life.

rock bottom is the point where you finally make a concious choice to turn things around. all too often people say or have intentions of doing something, rock bottom is the "straw that broke the camel's back" so to speak. it means a many things to many people. the point before death, the point before insanity, the point before the ultimate price paid for something. generally its used as a term that defines the lowest point a person can physically or mentally, go or will allow themselves to go and they acknowledge that is the limit. rock bottom and someone else doing everything to help you back up, is not rock bottom unless it is acknowledged and conciously vowed not to return there again. it creates motivation and drive.
 
bignate73 said:
rock bottom is the point where you finally make a concious choice to turn things around. all too often people say or have intentions of doing something, rock bottom is the "straw that broke the camel's back" so to speak. it means a many things to many people. the point before death, the point before insanity, the point before the ultimate price paid for something. generally its used as a term that defines the lowest point a person can physically or mentally, go or will allow themselves to go and they acknowledge that is the limit. rock bottom and someone else doing everything to help you back up, is not rock bottom unless it is acknowledged and conciously vowed not to return there again. it creates motivation and drive.

Rockbottom was the name of the villain in Felix the Cat.
 
its also the name of The Rock's finishing move.

rock006.jpg
 
I apologize to any I have offended personally. I appreciate everyone's input here, life is all about learning. Thank you to everyone for keeping this thread on topic and mostly civil :)
 
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