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Baoh
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There was no need to remind me via direct address, though. As for your assertion regarding the man, you're welcome to believe that.
DC or 5x5 or other ??
- Thread starter Toozee
- Start date
c3bodybuilding
New member
I don't want to be a thread pirate, but this is kind of on topic. So, we are now starting to understand that frequency is important. That hitting a muscle 2 and sometimes 3 times a week is better than one for hypertrophy. Then perhaps Arnolds routines of yore were not that bad.
I have been reading up on them, and it is said he would make each day different. He would work the body 3 times a week. But one was a heavy day, moderate, and light. Now for a genetically elite man, and lots of steroids, thats not really overtraining. So maybe Arnold was onto something with his frequent workouts. He grew awfully quick. He never got much bigger afterawhile, but he would keep getting more and more polished, at the same weight. Okay, I am doped up on some pain pills, and none of this probably even makes sense. Just a thought.
I have been reading up on them, and it is said he would make each day different. He would work the body 3 times a week. But one was a heavy day, moderate, and light. Now for a genetically elite man, and lots of steroids, thats not really overtraining. So maybe Arnold was onto something with his frequent workouts. He grew awfully quick. He never got much bigger afterawhile, but he would keep getting more and more polished, at the same weight. Okay, I am doped up on some pain pills, and none of this probably even makes sense. Just a thought.
BlkWS6
New member
Debaser I think that you are right that Im dipping a little bit into my recovery if Im sore for quite a few days following my lift. But for what its worth it doesnt seem to be hindering my lifts. For example, my close grip bench on thursday isnt really compromised from the little bit of left over soreness in my chest from monday's workout (unless it is like the first week back to lifting after a week or two off) Although Im probably hitting that fine line between overtraining and not, Im adding weight to the bar every week so Im going to assume that Im doing ok.
Sofa: I totally agree with you regarding the flexibility of the 5x5 and the somewhat inflexibility of DC training. I mean sure a sound diet is a crucial part of any training regimen, but the requirements of DC training were something that I just couldnt hang with at this point in my life.
Casual: Im definitely an advocate of non-failure training, in fact that was one of my major gripes with DC training. I realize that soreness is not an indicator of growth, and I think in my first post I may have given the wrong impression of the degree of my sorenss. It is just a little DOMS and nothing that is really hindering my progress. Im not quite following your logic about dropping the weight a considerable amount so that one could train the body part twice a week and still make progress. I mean do you think it is better to drop to a significantly smaller weight just so that the muscle can be hit more often? Many argue that strength is highly correlated with size (I know we can argue the whole CNS adaptation and what not) so I would think that pushing more weight and getting stronger every week with training the muscle once a week would be more effective then dropping the weight a considerable amount just so you can hit the bodypart with moderate weights more frequently. I guess my argument is what is better? Heavier resistance in fewer sessions, or a lighter load with higher frequency? Hahah I hope that kinda makes sense.
Sofa: I totally agree with you regarding the flexibility of the 5x5 and the somewhat inflexibility of DC training. I mean sure a sound diet is a crucial part of any training regimen, but the requirements of DC training were something that I just couldnt hang with at this point in my life.
Casual: Im definitely an advocate of non-failure training, in fact that was one of my major gripes with DC training. I realize that soreness is not an indicator of growth, and I think in my first post I may have given the wrong impression of the degree of my sorenss. It is just a little DOMS and nothing that is really hindering my progress. Im not quite following your logic about dropping the weight a considerable amount so that one could train the body part twice a week and still make progress. I mean do you think it is better to drop to a significantly smaller weight just so that the muscle can be hit more often? Many argue that strength is highly correlated with size (I know we can argue the whole CNS adaptation and what not) so I would think that pushing more weight and getting stronger every week with training the muscle once a week would be more effective then dropping the weight a considerable amount just so you can hit the bodypart with moderate weights more frequently. I guess my argument is what is better? Heavier resistance in fewer sessions, or a lighter load with higher frequency? Hahah I hope that kinda makes sense.
I'm pretty sure I get what you're saying.
I should also make myself more clear. Since it's all about progressive load, what I suggested was have the starting weight be lower so that you can progress the load for a longer period of time before being unable to complete the sets. It's not all light; you start light and progress towards heavy. As long as you're not training to failure, it's all good.
What I'm discussing is different from what the original sticky details. The stated goal of the sticky is to break a strength plateau, and they've found that building up through progressive resistance allowed strength gains. I'm gonna take the position that the progressive load caused muscle gains which caused the observed strength gains. Not that strength gains caused size gains.
So if you did what I outlined, you should grow more and see some pretty decent strength gains.
-casualbb
I should also make myself more clear. Since it's all about progressive load, what I suggested was have the starting weight be lower so that you can progress the load for a longer period of time before being unable to complete the sets. It's not all light; you start light and progress towards heavy. As long as you're not training to failure, it's all good.
What I'm discussing is different from what the original sticky details. The stated goal of the sticky is to break a strength plateau, and they've found that building up through progressive resistance allowed strength gains. I'm gonna take the position that the progressive load caused muscle gains which caused the observed strength gains. Not that strength gains caused size gains.
So if you did what I outlined, you should grow more and see some pretty decent strength gains.
-casualbb
st8k_lover
New member
. Tozee, I was in your shoes just a couple of months ago, coming back to working out after a substantial down period. I tried 5x5 and my own form of dc. Like some of the other post have suggested I had a few problems with each style. I have never really likes once a week per body part training and developed the same dislike for the 5x5 program. I was making good gains but I thought I was ready to hit it a few days before the programmed scheduled workout. So I tried DC but did not like the only one set per workout so I added another set, which I have since found out is strictly taboo. I did find I liked the Monday Friday Wed split as I felt I was ready to go in that time frame. My workout now consists of elements of both styles but is restricted in form or content by neither. I work chest triceps and shoulders on M-F-W in this fashion
Warm-ups, 3x5 core movement (like bench, close grips military's)
2x10 assist movement to failure but no forced or neg reps
Tues 5x5 back and bicep with 2 assist lifts 2x10
Thurs 5x5 legs with two assist lifts 2x10
The bottom line is, don’t be afraid to try multiple routines and find out what works for you. Just because Louden and Needsize make great gains on their respective routines, does not mean it will be optimal for you. But you have made one good choice in coming to this board as there is an abundance of opinions and information to be had.
Peace
Warm-ups, 3x5 core movement (like bench, close grips military's)
2x10 assist movement to failure but no forced or neg reps
Tues 5x5 back and bicep with 2 assist lifts 2x10
Thurs 5x5 legs with two assist lifts 2x10
The bottom line is, don’t be afraid to try multiple routines and find out what works for you. Just because Louden and Needsize make great gains on their respective routines, does not mean it will be optimal for you. But you have made one good choice in coming to this board as there is an abundance of opinions and information to be had.
Peace
There's another issue I have with the sticky as outlined. You have this wonderful progressive load thing going with the main 5x5 exercise, but then it's ruined by taking those two auxiliary exercises to failure. That really mucks up the progressive load if your pushing max with those exercises each workout.
I'd drop them altogether. After all, if your core movement is a really productive one, such as squats, deadlifts, or incline press, do you really need to add front squats or flyes? Methinks not.
-casualbb
louden_swain
New member
Here is what I can't understand.
Why use multiple sets, when you can attack a muscle using one set to failure?
To me the 5 x 5 method does not totally test your total maximum output, once you hit 5 reps you stop, when you may be able to get an additional 2 reps.
For me all non-failure sets are used for warmups at 50-70% of total max.
What will extra sets do for a trainer? When you see 5 x 5, what is it about the 5 sets that will make you grow?
The idea of training is to breakdown muscle so a person can spend time eating and resting. When this happens the muscle will grow and learn how to adapt to the stress.
Why use multiple sets, when you can attack a muscle using one set to failure?
To me the 5 x 5 method does not totally test your total maximum output, once you hit 5 reps you stop, when you may be able to get an additional 2 reps.
For me all non-failure sets are used for warmups at 50-70% of total max.
What will extra sets do for a trainer? When you see 5 x 5, what is it about the 5 sets that will make you grow?
The idea of training is to breakdown muscle so a person can spend time eating and resting. When this happens the muscle will grow and learn how to adapt to the stress.
Don't the days with heavy compound movements (in 5x5 training) offset any "detraining" that might take place?
I've been doing 5x5 for only a month now, and initially I felt like I could do more than one day a week per part. Now that I'm getting up closer to the high end of my weight limits, I'm starting to wonder. I could maybe do more than one day per week on my arms or chest, but would this affect any of my other days?
I do back/shoulders on Mondays, and legs on Thursdays. Could I train these parts more than once a week and not have it affect the other day? I doubt it. Maybe three times in two weeks would be doable. I do a bit more than is prescribed on leg day, though. Maybe if I chopped it down to the minimum and did it twice a week that would be doable. But then, would I really feel like I had a good workout? I guess that puts us back to just doing what seems best on a case-by-case basis.
Interesting thread.
I've been doing 5x5 for only a month now, and initially I felt like I could do more than one day a week per part. Now that I'm getting up closer to the high end of my weight limits, I'm starting to wonder. I could maybe do more than one day per week on my arms or chest, but would this affect any of my other days?
I do back/shoulders on Mondays, and legs on Thursdays. Could I train these parts more than once a week and not have it affect the other day? I doubt it. Maybe three times in two weeks would be doable. I do a bit more than is prescribed on leg day, though. Maybe if I chopped it down to the minimum and did it twice a week that would be doable. But then, would I really feel like I had a good workout? I guess that puts us back to just doing what seems best on a case-by-case basis.
Interesting thread.
BlkWS6
New member
Originally posted by louden_swain
Here is what I can't understand.
Why use multiple sets, when you can attack a muscle using one set to failure?
To me the 5 x 5 method does not totally test your total maximum output, once you hit 5 reps you stop, when you may be able to get an additional 2 reps.
For me all non-failure sets are used for warmups at 50-70% of total max.
What will extra sets do for a trainer? When you see 5 x 5, what is it about the 5 sets that will make you grow?
The idea of training is to breakdown muscle so a person can spend time eating and resting. When this happens the muscle will grow and learn how to adapt to the stress.
Well Louden I dont like training to failure, and I feel that failure training is very hard to recover from. Therefore, I will do multiple sets because Im not training at the level of intensity you would be performing by going to failure on one set. And the idea of training under a 5x5 program is progressive load, and in order to do so one tries to stay away from taking any sets to failure. Stopping short of failure is allowing me to add weight to the bar every week. I think that the muscle will grow if it is experiencing an increase in resistance every week, and this is what occurs on a successful 5x5 routine. When I was performing a low volume, failure training program I found that I had a very difficult time adding weight to the bar the following week(s).
Here is what I can't understand.
Why use multiple sets, when you can attack a muscle using one set to failure?
To me the 5 x 5 method does not totally test your total maximum output, once you hit 5 reps you stop, when you may be able to get an additional 2 reps.
For me all non-failure sets are used for warmups at 50-70% of total max.
What will extra sets do for a trainer? When you see 5 x 5, what is it about the 5 sets that will make you grow?
The idea of training is to breakdown muscle so a person can spend time eating and resting. When this happens the muscle will grow and learn how to adapt to the stress.
Well Louden I dont like training to failure, and I feel that failure training is very hard to recover from. Therefore, I will do multiple sets because Im not training at the level of intensity you would be performing by going to failure on one set. And the idea of training under a 5x5 program is progressive load, and in order to do so one tries to stay away from taking any sets to failure. Stopping short of failure is allowing me to add weight to the bar every week. I think that the muscle will grow if it is experiencing an increase in resistance every week, and this is what occurs on a successful 5x5 routine. When I was performing a low volume, failure training program I found that I had a very difficult time adding weight to the bar the following week(s).
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