DC or 5x5 or other ??

[Debaser]

Here's where I'm going to disagree. There isn't some magic threshold of sets, past which no further growth is caused. Generally more sets will promote more growth, as long as frequency isn't compromised.

-casualbb

That's essentially what I was saying here: "You will probably be able to add weight the next session, but because you had to recover for a full week (due to the volume) you are not gaining optimally."

In other words, they cannot train more than once a week, because they do too much work. So frequency *is* compromised. If they lowered their workload to say, 1-3 sets, then frequency could possibly be bumped up. In fact, 5x5 did advocate (and as Bill Starr prescribed it, baoh) 2-3 warm up sets and then 2-3 work sets for a total of 5. This is a far superior method in my opinion. He also advocated lighter and medium lifting days. An edited (by me) version of some of Bill Starr's ideas I just came up with about 5 seconds ago might look like this...

I had some of my own ideas, taking his light, medium and heavy concept, and reducing number of sets as the weight is more taxing...

Week 1 NOTE: WARMUP SETS "NOT" COUNTED

Monday (75% of max)

Dip, 4 x 5
Overhead Press, 4 x 5
Close-grip supinated pulldown/pullup, 3 x 10
Squat, 4 x 5
Stiff-legged deadlift, 3 x 10

Wednesday (85 - 90% max)

Dip, 3 x 5
Overhead Press, 3 x 5
Pulldown/pullup, 2 x 10
Squat, 3 x 5
Stiff-legged deadlift, 2 x 10

Friday (FAILURE)

Dip, 2 x 5
Overhead Press, 2 x 5
Pulldown/pullup, 1 x 10
Squat, 2 x 5
Stiff-legged deadlift, 1 x 10

---

opinions?

 

[BlkWS6]

Casual: I understand where you are coming from regarding hitting the body part more then once a week, but I have two issues regarding applying such a concept to the 5x5 as laid out by NS. First, I dont know about other 5x5'ers but Im far from ready to hit the muscle again within a couple of days. Im usually sore for quite some time, and I do have good recovery habits. On thursday, my chest is often still sore from my Monday workout. Secondly, unlike the DC program the 5x5 uses the same compound lift for an extended period of time. As opposed to DC training where you cycle through 3 different exercises, on the 5x5 you are doing the same lift for the whole program (until you plateau then there are other options but that is a whole different story) So my point is, if you hit flat bench twice a week for chest for example, and you followed the progressive overload principles of the 5x5 as laid out by NS you would have to add 10lbs to each of your compound lifts every week. That is a whole lot of weight to expect to add to the bar every week, and I imagine one would stall out very fast. In DC, you cycle the exercises you add the weight to, so if Im doing flat bench on week one, Im not going to add weight again to flat bench until I repeat that exercise again which wouldnt be for roughly 3wks. I couldnt imagine trying to add 80lbs to my bench within 2 months. And if you had to add 10lbs every week, and your progress every week for 2 months that is what it would roughly come out to be. And that is just really far fetched in my opinion. I would like to hear your thoughts on it though casual, and anyone else for that matter. Im always open for suggestions, but I have thought it through before and hitting a muscle 2x a week on the 5x5 (needsize's version mind you) that is just too much weight to add every week.

 

[Debaser]

Im far from ready to hit the muscle again within a couple of days. Im usually sore for quite some time

This is really his (and my) point. If it takes you a full week to be primed for another session, then you're digging too deep into your recovery.

 

[tsarleon]

once again it is an individual thing like EVERYTHING. why not rotate 5x5 instead of once awk or twice a week to maybe 3 times every two weeks... so in a 14 day period you would bench 5x5 3 times... allowing perhaps give or take depending on rotation roughly 4 days inbetween bench days. who knows.

 

[SofaGeorge]

I tired DC training and had to abandon it very quickly. I'm back doing 5x5 now and loving it.

DC may be a very good program... but it is not flexable. You have to stick to the schedule... and unfortunately my schedule doesn't let me keep a fixed workout schedule. Hence, 5x5 works better for me.

 

[casualbb]

Debaser:

In other words, they cannot train more than once a week, because they do too much work.

And I'm saying that the 5x5's volume per session isn't unreasonable, if they're not training to failure.

BlkWS6:

Im far from ready to hit the muscle again within a couple of days. Im usually sore for quite some time, and I do have good recovery habits. On thursday, my chest is often still sore from my Monday workout.

Soreness really isn't a good indicator of anything. The reason you're so consistently sore is you let so much time elapse between sessions that by the time you hit it next you've actually detrained!

on the 5x5 you are doing the same lift for the whole program ...twice a week for chest for example, and you followed the progressive overload principles of the 5x5 as laid out by NS you would have to add 10lbs to each of your compound lifts every week. That is a whole lot of weight to expect to add to the bar every week, and I imagine one would stall out very fast.

I agree, one would run out of weight quickly. The thing is, the 5x5 already has you start below your max, right? If you're willing to accept the leap of faith that you don't have to work to failure to cause growth (and god bless you if you have), then why not just lower your starting point a little more?

Say you can do 185 lbs 5x5. You'd normally start at, what, 165? If you were doing 2x/week that'd only allow 2 weeks of progression. I say, why not start at 135? That'd give you a growth-packed 7-8 weeks, assuming you'd end up hitting 195 for 5x5.

-casualbb

 

[Debaser]

No one liked my program idea? I thought it sounded neato.

 

[gmanlax7]

if you are bulking i would try the 5x5

DC isn't much volume so it might make you gain a little less of fat

 

[Baoh]

"(and as Bill Starr prescribed it, baoh)"

Why did you address me?

 

[Debaser]

Because you mentioned Bill Starr earlier.

He had his head on his shoulders in many ways but not in others, but then again, almost every trainer is like that.