Cutting:Finding it hard to focus when I keep seeing so much conflicting information->

[BigRedCat]

My girl and I are both trying to cut and have been getting zero results. Our diets are clean- I have meticulously gone over them and have been following the advice of John Berardi as far as diet. As for cardio- I have been doing 4 times a week 20-30 minute sessions after weights. I do either sprints or real slow low impact(3.6mph on treadmill). What am I doing wrong? Do I need to up the cardio or what? I just dont seem to lose any fat and I am running around 3000 cals a day. I should be losing but nope. Help! Any advice?

 

[jeremys]

what are your stats and goals? if you only started coming and progress has halted, it's gotta be the diet.

have you tried a CKD diet? go to the diet board and read up. works very well for many people

 

[BigRedCat]

I am 5'11" 190 at 14-15%bf. I am looking to get to a solid 199-205 but I would like to lose the fat I have first. My girl is 5'5" 138 - same for her, she is looking to lean up first. We have been lifting heavy and busting our ass but yet no change. I even changed up my workout about 3 weeks ago. I am thinking it must be diet related as well.

 

[gymtime]

How long have you been dieting and lifting strictly like this?

 

[Haz]

Drop the calories down to 1900-2000. I know that sounds a tad low, but you'll see quicker results. My philosophy on dieting is, get it over and done with as quick as possible, then go onto a maintenance diet.

 

[spatts]

Post up the diet, please.

 

[BigRedCat]

Here is my diet:
(my girl is running around 2200cals whereas I am running aroun 3000).

Meal 1
8oz low fat cottage cheese
1 bannannnanna(I can put as many n's in bannana as I want dammit!!hehe)
1 serving Isopure Whey Protein
1 cup oatmeal with raisans

Meal 2 1/2 cup oatmeal
1 serving Isopure

Meal 3
MRP/Isopure
2tbsp natty Peanut Butter

Meal 4
Chicken breast
1/2 cup veggies

Meal 5
1 can tuna
salad
1oz mixed nuts

Meal 6
steak(filet mignon usually)
salad
1/2 cup green beans or corn or carrots.
----
My girl follows this with less cals of course. Do I need to drop as low as 2000? If that is the case what does she need 1000? See, this is what I mean, I read for hours on John Berardi's site and he says the #1 reason most people cannot lose fat is they dont eat enough. So, which is it?

 

[spatts]

Some suggestions:

Ditch the fructose...period. Banananananannaa is out. Raisins are about the highest glycemic food you can eat...out.

Add more fiber.

There's no REAL food between meal 1 and 4.

Corn and carrots are starches.

I cut on about 1500-2000 but that's because I choose to create a deficit through exercise, as opposed to restriction.

Last time I cut, the diet looked like this:

http://www.asylum-strength.com/spat-cutting.htm

Cycle the carbs 3 days low (.5g/kg body weight) and 2 days high (2.0g/kg body weight), or high on training days and low on non training days. The diet in the link represents the 100g CHO median.

1Kg = 2.2046 lbs

Just what works for me....

I don't train at 6AM anymore, so ignore the strange times in the spreadsheet. The foods and ratios are the impt part. So you know, I'm a 5'9' 190 pound female at 18-20% fat. Then, I was about 200 and cut to 164 (150 pounds LBM).

 

[BigRedCat]

OK, this diet is directly from John Berardi(I modified it a bit but below are HIS suggestions):

Meal #1
8 oz. cottage cheese
1 banana
1 scoop of Advanced Protein
1 cup of oatmeal (before cooked)

Meal #2
1/2 cup of oatmeal (before cooked)
2 scoops of Advanced Protein
1 piece of flax bread
1 piece of fat free cheese

Meal #3 (post workout)
3 scoops of Biotest Surge

Meal #4
7 egg whites
2 whole eggs
1/2 cup vegetables
2 slices of fat free cheese
2 teaspoons of flax oil

Meal #5
1 can of tuna fish
Salad
1 oz mixed nuts
2 teaspoons flax oil

Meal #6
1 can of sockeye salmon (3 times per week, eat 8 oz extra lean beef instead, but take a few concentrated EPA/DHA capsules with this meal when you don’t eat fish)
Salad
1 oz mixed nuts
-----------
Now of course I have heard the whole no fructose thing before but then someone like Berardi who is a nutritionist says eat bannanas. Labrada says its no good to eat any tropical fruits when cutting, just as Spatts has said. So who's advice do I follow? Lee Labrada? John Berardi? Spatts? Body For Life? It gets confusing and I am not a beginner either- I have been studying this stuff for some time. My girl was running around 1500 cals for awhile and same thing- no fat loss. So I had her up the cals and no change yet. Same with me. So, at 138 pounds she needs around 1600 cals to cut? Pretty low.

 

[spatts]

If that worked for him, great. It probably wouldn't work for me. Is it working for you?

Don't forget the estrogen/insulin relationship that your girl has to deal with too.

 

[BigRedCat]

Very true. So for her, how do I need to modify diet? I am thinking she could follow your cutting diet at a lower calorie ratio- like 1800cals? For myself I am thinking 2500-2800 cals a day. Does that sound about right?

 

[spatts]

I tried to shoot for a 200-300 caloried deficit everyday in the beginning, and then 500 as a last resort. I either did that through food or exercise. Toward the end, you don't want to over do it on cardio, you want to spare muscle...so do it though diet.

Do you know the current BF% for each of you...and how was it tested?

 

[BigRedCat]

I just have calipers- not really too exact but gives me a decent idea.

 

[Deleted member 33117]

red, listen, your diet is definately the problem. Spatts is correct, fructose is COMPLETELY out for anyone trying to get ripped. If you aren't going to do a keto diet, eat only very low glycemic index carbs and up your fiber intake. I would stick with oatmeal, brown rice, yams, and either plain or artifically sweetened yogurt. Also, no carrots before beadtime. Drop the mrp's. Fast absorbing processed meals are out, real food is in. Make your body work for its calories...and I hope that peanut butter is natual pb, not sugar and hydrogenated oil-laden jiff or peter pan...
Personally though, I find that CKD's work best for me, bother for bulking and cutting. I just lower the calories for cutting, and up them for mass gains with little or no fat gain.
Also bear in mind that while doing so little cardio on a non-keto diet, 3000 cals may be a bit high for a guy your size. I'm running 2600-3200 on my keto days and 6-7k on my carb loading days, at 5'9" 220 ibs 7.5-8% bf.

 

[Haz]

I'm not so sure about the fructose thing. I used to avoid it like the plague when I was cutting. However, I decided to use fruit as my main carb source this last time out (just for shits and giggles). I still lost fat, strength was good and didn't notice any muscle loss.

Now I eat fruit ALL the time. Lots of apples, bananas, oranges, pears etc. It beats eating friggin brocolli all the time, and has also helped me out on the toilet.

 

[MiamiStyle245]

Haz...you have a point: My father lost plenty of weight (along with some muscle, too) eating only fruits and vegetables. He is old school and to him if calories in are less than calories out, you are good to go. It worked for him well and now he is a permanent vegetarian.

I on the other hand follow something similar to a TDK for cutting. I eat an apple about 30 minutes prior to lifting and I do low intensity cardio on an empty stomach in the morning. On nontraing days, I limit my carbs to about 50, protein=300. On training days, I eat about 200 gr carbs: apple preworkout, dextrose shake post, balanced meal following. For the day total 300 gr protein. Btw, 5'11" 215lbs.

 

[DrBones]

I on the other hand follow something similar to a TDK for cutting. I eat an apple about 30 minutes prior to lifting and I do low intensity cardio on an empty stomach in the morning. On nontraing days, I limit my carbs to about 50, protein=300. On training days, I eat about 200 gr carbs: apple preworkout, dextrose shake post, balanced meal following. For the day total 300 gr protein. Btw, 5'11" 215lbs.

Eating fruit before working out wont give you any musclular energy, fructose doesn't fill muscle glycogen, only liver glycogen...

Thats why its bad to eat fruit while cutting, your liver glycogen will overflow and the excess energy will be stored in fat cells.

I think I got that righ

 

[epimetheus]

Drop the calories down to 1900-2000. I know that sounds a tad low, but you'll see quicker results. My philosophy on dieting is, get it over and done with as quick as possible, then go onto a maintenance diet.

I wouldn't do this at all. Are you nuts?

At his height weight 1900 calories is below his BMR. Which means energy problems and muscle loss. Not to mention your body panicking and entering starvation mode. You are on a bodybuilding forum, I am sure muscle loss is not what you are wanting.

As far as the rest goes- Guess it depends on what you want to believe and what evidence you choose to remember and which evidence you tend to forget.

Calories in, Calories out. First law of Thermodynamics. You cannot escape that. However, you never want to drop below 500 calories less than your maintenence, if you want to retain muscle and still have energy to do things.
500 calories less a day will give you a 1lb a week weight loss, and as long as you keep up the weight training muscle loss will be at a very minimum.

Your body does not exclusivly draw from fat- It will draw the glycogen from your muscles slowly, and if there isn't enough food to replace the missing glucose chains, it will forgo it. Extra muscle mass is an expensive luxary, and the body will toss it overboard in times of crisis.

 

[spatts]

At 190 pounds, buy some calculations, 1900 is his BMR, epimetheus. 10 x Bodyweight is a conservative number.

In either event, I prefer to create a deficit through exercise, as opposed to dropping cals a whole lot. I like to eat.

 

[epimetheus]

Well, I prefer this one- http://www.caloriesperhour.com/

Being as accurate as possible with information gathered from ASCM studies and gadgetry. It is pretty much the most accurate one on the interent.

1987 calories is his BMR at 190 lbs and 5'11. About 2000- so not really below it by any signifigant amount, but still not conducive to the general goals he is looking for I am guessing. Since he is looking for a lean 200lbs, much like myself.

 

[spatts]

I thought he said he was cutting. Unless he wants to start discussing his "supplementation" he can kiss a cut 200 from 190 goodbye, on a cutting diet.

 

[epimetheus]

True, but if he is planning on cutting from 14% to 8% so that when he bulks he isn't sloppy, which seems to be what he is suggesting, then he is ultimately looking to lose a bit of fat- with the intent of keeping muscle so that his lean 200lb is easier to obtain.

If he cuts at BMR, with all his daily activities, his lifting, his cardio, it will burn muscle because that will be the most readily available fuel. It will burn fat as well, but is it worth losing 1lb of muscle to lose 5lbs of fat?

I am not telling him not to cut his calories, I am advising not cutting down to his BMR. That is not safe.

 

[spatts]

Depends on what you eat...I think his overall intake should be below BMR, but that it should be achieved through burning them off, not starving.

Epi, when did you cut last, and how did you do it?

 

[collegiateLifter]

if you keep being frustrated, or for future reference you may want to give the anabolic diet a run through. i am not very carb tolerant, and fittingly respond very well on it. its also rather hard to over eat on and takes little planning. theres a 2 part interview with dipasquale on t-mag that basically tells you all about it

 

[epimetheus]

Depends on what you eat...I think his overall intake should be below BMR, but that it should be achieved through burning them off, not starving.

Epi, when did you cut last, and how did you do it?

Ahh, trying to bring me into huh? Would you like a bunch of links and reliable citations on the proper way to cut? Below BMR, the MINIMUM calories your body needs to function? Do you sit around the house all day? Doubtful many people do. Check out that site, enter in your activities.

Or do you doubt the American College of Sports Medicine? It is their recomendation after all. I only repeat it.

I cut 1lb a week, I lost no strength in my cutting phase, but I only went from ~18% to 12% BF.

1lb a week is 500 calories a day less than MAINTENENCE. NOT BMR.

I burn 3500 calories a day, that is my Maintenence, on the days I work, only 2800 calories on weekends. Dropping to my BMR is stupid, and I am appalled that you would suggest it. Do you think BigRed sits around all day? (the only justification for going below BMR)

How the hell is he supposed to get the energy to run on the treadmill, lift weights, go to work, walk up stairs, walk to the car, drive, etc if he isn't taking in enough energy?

No, the body doesn't compensate by burning all the fat- Your body becomes lethargic, brain function slows, and muscle mass is tapped into. Not something a bodybuilder nor a powerlifter wants. Some fat is burned, but the body will go into an emergency mode, and will CONSERVE your energy rather than burn it off. Hence the lack of motivation to keep moving.

And then when you waste away, and your muscles are all atrophied, and you think you are happy with your weight, you start increasing your calories, guess where it gets stored? AS FAT, why? because you starved it for 6+ weeks previously and it is still scared of it repeating. Evolutionary advantage.

This is all stuff I have seen you telling newbies, almost word for word, so why spatts are you doubting me? Is it you are holding a grudge of some sort?

 

[spatts]

Doubting you? I asked you when you cut last.

Thanks for the info, but I was just looking for an answer to my question.

I thought maybe you had competed. Am I wrong?

 

[epimetheus]

No, I didn't compete.

I only weightlift to get stronger and be healthy. I am not much of an on-stage type of person.

I started bulking last week, going on a 12 week, 1lb a week gain cycle, hopefully It will be mostly muscle. Come spring I will cut again, but I doubt I bother with getting much less than 10% BF, maybe 9%. Can't imagine trying for 6%. (shiver)

 

[MiamiStyle245]

"Eating fruit before working out wont give you any musclular energy, fructose doesn't fill muscle glycogen, only liver glycogen...

Thats why its bad to eat fruit while cutting, your liver glycogen will overflow and the excess energy will be stored in fat cells. "

Dr. Bones, I have heard this before, but I feel like it works. Whatever, I am sure one apple 4 times a week isn't going to kill me.

 

[spatts]

I think sometimes people lose sight of what they're getting from food in the process of avoiding certain nutrients. Certain fruits are going to be fine, but raisins are not one of those, neither are bananas. Even if he's lucky to get by with it, his girl likely isn't. I was able to eat apricots, which are high in fiber and very low glycemic.

 

[BigRedCat]

OK, again I am not exactly sure what I should be doing. More confusion.

My ultimate goal is to be around 199-205 at a low BF- basically I am looking for the mixed martial artist look- think Ken Shamrock(prior to his face beating by Tito) or Frank Shamrock. I am 29 and do not ever plan to compete, I just want to look and feel good.

According to my calipers I am currently around 14%BF at 190. Like most men, I gain fat on my waist only. Everywhere else I am not fat at all. Now, epimetheus is correct, I want to lean out and THEN gain. I am tired of having pudge around my abs and the same goes for my girl- she wants to get lean and then gain. It seems to be a smarter way to go about it then bulking up and gaining to much fat in the process. According to John Berardi you are always better off doing it that way.

So..what kind of diet do I need? I have tried BFL,The Labarda Challenge etc, and I basically stay the same. I might drop my waist down an inch or 2 and gain a bit of muscle but then I seem to just go back to being the same. I dont have trouble being disciplined as far as eating goes but I keep hearing "eat this, dont eat this- no eat that and dont eat this"- its confusing and as I pass this information to my girl and she see's no results she is starting to think I have no clue what I am talking about.

I need a detailed explanation of exactly what to and what NOT to eat. In addition it may be of some importance to add that we lift late at night due to job constraints so we do our cardio after weights as well. Midnight usually.

I must be doing something really wrong because we have been working out for close to 2 years now and my girl especially has seen zero gains. In fact she has gained weight and it seems to be fat. I appreciate the help, I am just feeling like a failure because I am trying so hard and not seeing any results. My strength has gone up from doing the 5x5 program but I am not seeing much in the way of anything else. My arms grew up to 16.5" and then a few weeks later were back down to just under 16". I dont know what is going on but its not good.

 

[The Shadow]

My girl and I are both trying to cut and have been getting zero results. Our diets are clean- I have meticulously gone over them and have been following the advice of John Berardi as far as diet. As for cardio- I have been doing 4 times a week 20-30 minute sessions after weights. I do either sprints or real slow low impact(3.6mph on treadmill). What am I doing wrong? Do I need to up the cardio or what? I just dont seem to lose any fat and I am running around 3000 cals a day. I should be losing but nope. Help! Any advice?

You are making it WAY too complicated.....burn more cals than you consume....go with a diet of 12-14 times bodyweight holding carbs to 75-100 per day...moderate cardio 4c per week.

 

[BigRedCat]

That is what I have been doing, with little results. That would be 2280-2660 cals a day for me which is about what I eat. Maybe I will do cardio 6 times a week.

Damn this body!ha.

 

[The Shadow]

be patient.....that level of cals should allow you to drop around one pound per week.......the cardio should burn about bodyweight divided by 10 on a 15% incline and 4.3 mph per minute....

 

[BigRedCat]

Ok, its been awhile and since I last posted on this thread I have GAINED 2 pounds! So, I guess the only thing I can do now is drop to 1900-2000 cals a day. Same for my girl, no fat loss. She has stayed at 138. She is eating 1500 cals a day. Do we both need to eat less or what? I just want some results dammit!! On the plus side, I seem to be gaining muscle. That doesn't help the little gut that I am growing around my waist!