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Cleans for Cubanito
- Thread starter Arioch
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Arioch
New member
Sebass67 - the only time the deadlift will transfer directly over into the clean is if your pull is weak off of the deck. Deads are very good for building trap and upper back strength, and with a good dead, the most likely trouble you would have with the clean is technique. The main difference in pulls (aside from the height, obviously) is that in the deadlift the pull begins to slow down at the point where the clean should truly begin to accelerate.
To improve the top end of the pull, I usually recommend hang cleans and cleans from the pins in the power rack. Redding used to do pulls with the bar resting on milk crates. The power snatch is an exceptional exercise to improve the second pull, as well as build upper back strength. It is probably my personal favorite OL assistance exercise.
As to improving flexibility for racking the clean, the easiest way I have found is to have someone simply push up on your elbows when you have a bar properly racked. If you are really motivated, you can have some who does not like you help . . .
Also, do not neglect to stretch the posterior deltoids and triceps.
Deceiver - the biomechanics of pulling with a sumo stance and generating any degree of power seems like a good way to get injured. You could try it, I suppose, but I think I would fall over backward.
Out of curiousity, why can you not pull conventional?
To improve the top end of the pull, I usually recommend hang cleans and cleans from the pins in the power rack. Redding used to do pulls with the bar resting on milk crates. The power snatch is an exceptional exercise to improve the second pull, as well as build upper back strength. It is probably my personal favorite OL assistance exercise.
As to improving flexibility for racking the clean, the easiest way I have found is to have someone simply push up on your elbows when you have a bar properly racked. If you are really motivated, you can have some who does not like you help . . .
Also, do not neglect to stretch the posterior deltoids and triceps.
Deceiver - the biomechanics of pulling with a sumo stance and generating any degree of power seems like a good way to get injured. You could try it, I suppose, but I think I would fall over backward.
Out of curiousity, why can you not pull conventional?
Cubanito17
New member
Hey thanks man i really appreciate all this. Now for where I'm messing up see I'm not really sure myself let's put it this way see if it helps any i can high pull without moving my leg up to 105 for a triple then i can hang cleans with a bit of a spring 145 for a triple but my full powerclean is 180 now i can front squat i normally work with 225 for 8 or so. I know i have a problem with bar speed and throwing my elbows through but thats all i know of. Does that help any.
Arioch
New member
Cubanito, it sounds like you need to work on your second pull. One thing to remember, at first learning the OL's is all about technique. Yes, you will be muscular strength, but at this point you should be concentrating on skill.
That being said, you should work on hang cleans and power cleans from the pins. The reason power cleans from the pins are useful is because in addition to providing overload to the specific muscles you are utilizing, they allow you to set up in the proper position.
Set the pins at just above knee level, grip the bar with a hook grip, then rebend and explode. These can be done following cleans or in place of on a second day. I would do them following either speed bench or ME bench instead of specific shoulder work.
You could also try learning the power snatch. This will work the upper back even more, as well as force you to pull through to achieve the necessary height. In conventional OL'ing programs, it is normally taught first for just this reason.
That being said, you should work on hang cleans and power cleans from the pins. The reason power cleans from the pins are useful is because in addition to providing overload to the specific muscles you are utilizing, they allow you to set up in the proper position.
Set the pins at just above knee level, grip the bar with a hook grip, then rebend and explode. These can be done following cleans or in place of on a second day. I would do them following either speed bench or ME bench instead of specific shoulder work.
You could also try learning the power snatch. This will work the upper back even more, as well as force you to pull through to achieve the necessary height. In conventional OL'ing programs, it is normally taught first for just this reason.
Prometheus
New member
Arioch -
Many, many thanks for your posts. Very helpful and much appreciated.
I have tried the lifts, and do rack cleans sometimes, but I haven't tried to move into a serious weight range, mainly due to poor (nonexistent?) technique. It's amazing how difficult those movements are...
Visually, the lifts look like they create a tremendous amount of lumbar stress, and that the stress might be greater than for deadlifts, as it is compounded by the accleration and high-pull aspects. I have had lower back problems in the past, and I was wondering if you have experienced lower back injuries, or how you feel the OL's compare to deadlifts in that regard...
Thanks again.
Many, many thanks for your posts. Very helpful and much appreciated.
I have tried the lifts, and do rack cleans sometimes, but I haven't tried to move into a serious weight range, mainly due to poor (nonexistent?) technique. It's amazing how difficult those movements are...
Visually, the lifts look like they create a tremendous amount of lumbar stress, and that the stress might be greater than for deadlifts, as it is compounded by the accleration and high-pull aspects. I have had lower back problems in the past, and I was wondering if you have experienced lower back injuries, or how you feel the OL's compare to deadlifts in that regard...
Thanks again.
Arioch
New member
Yes, there is a fair amount of lumbar stress, but most of it occurs when racking the clean, and is compressive in nature. The spinal column is much more suited to handling compressive force than the shearing force it is exposed to when performing a heavy deadlift, assuming that the torso would be inclined far more with respect to the platform.
If I had to compare them, I would state the following:
1. Clean: Most compressive force, least shearing force.
2. Deadlift, least compressive force, most shearing force (while the weight is significantly greater, the spine is not subject to as much loading due to the much slower speed of the weight, and hence much lower force).
3. The snatch would have more shearing force than the clean, but less than the deadlift. It would have less compressive force than the clean, but more than the deadlift. The lift is moving faster than either the clean or the dead, but the weight is significantly lower than the dead, and a bit lower than the clean.
I have not seen many lower back injuries with any sort of pulling lift, usually when squatting, as some idiot lets the bar get too far out in front of them (I am guilty of this sometimes, but then I never claimed to be all that bright).
The most common injuries in OL'ing are usually knee and shoulder injuries. Poor foot placement when receiving and racking can lead to knee problems, and poor technique when receiving the snatch can cause a great deal of problems, specifically when one is struggling to hold onto a snatch that is too far behind the lifter, and should just be dumped.
The most common injuries, in my experience, when doing any sort of pulls, are bicep and elbow injuries. People forget to keep the arms straight or try to jerk the bar from the deck, and wind up tearing a bicep.
The lifts are not that hard to learn, if you have a decent coach. Start slow and concentrate on technique, you have the rest of your life to add weight. The problem lies in the fact the the process of attaining sports mastery (PASM - Soviet term but very useful) takes many years. According to many coaches, it takes at least seven years to properlly develop OL'ing skills.
If I had to compare them, I would state the following:
1. Clean: Most compressive force, least shearing force.
2. Deadlift, least compressive force, most shearing force (while the weight is significantly greater, the spine is not subject to as much loading due to the much slower speed of the weight, and hence much lower force).
3. The snatch would have more shearing force than the clean, but less than the deadlift. It would have less compressive force than the clean, but more than the deadlift. The lift is moving faster than either the clean or the dead, but the weight is significantly lower than the dead, and a bit lower than the clean.
I have not seen many lower back injuries with any sort of pulling lift, usually when squatting, as some idiot lets the bar get too far out in front of them (I am guilty of this sometimes, but then I never claimed to be all that bright).
The most common injuries in OL'ing are usually knee and shoulder injuries. Poor foot placement when receiving and racking can lead to knee problems, and poor technique when receiving the snatch can cause a great deal of problems, specifically when one is struggling to hold onto a snatch that is too far behind the lifter, and should just be dumped.
The most common injuries, in my experience, when doing any sort of pulls, are bicep and elbow injuries. People forget to keep the arms straight or try to jerk the bar from the deck, and wind up tearing a bicep.
The lifts are not that hard to learn, if you have a decent coach. Start slow and concentrate on technique, you have the rest of your life to add weight. The problem lies in the fact the the process of attaining sports mastery (PASM - Soviet term but very useful) takes many years. According to many coaches, it takes at least seven years to properlly develop OL'ing skills.
Cubanito17
New member
Hey arioch this is an awesome post for everything to do with cleans. It's great. I tried incorporating on snatches last 6 week westside workout. I threw them in on leg day which is my clean day although I was doing DB snatches from a hang would this work I only did 3X5 each arm with a 55lb DB. I know weak. But should I do these from the ground with a DB or the bar.
Arioch
New member
When you are first learning the movement, and in this case I am talking at least six months if not longer, you should use a bar, and not db's. You want the most stable environment possible, to concentrate on learning the technique. Practice these from the hang, as you are working on developing power for your second pull as well as strengthening your upper back. I started a thread on executing the snatch, please look at it and see if you have any questions (which you should). Sets of five are adequate for learning purposes at this point, but later you should switch to lower reps and increase the number of sets (such as ten sets of two, for example).
Arioch
New member
Another thing, if you do them on days where you are not benching, your shoulders and traps may still be fatigued when you try to bench. As you are doing them to specifically strengthen the upper back as well as work on the second pull, I would do them on bench days instead of specific shoulder work. The execution of the snatch is excellent for strengthening the external rotators, btw.
I posted a thread on how to execute the snatch, please look it over and see if you have any questions (you should).
I posted a thread on how to execute the snatch, please look it over and see if you have any questions (you should).
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