LOL Arioch - well, they are pretty much the same as they were but I won't be starting the more agressive joints supps until next week as there were a few delays. You were right about carbs, though. As long as I keep the carbs adequate the knees are okay, lower the carbs and they hurt. I tend to sit cross legged (indian style) a lot when I work and am having to retrain myself on that as I think that is a big contributing factor. As for training they seem to handle low weight/higher reps fairly well, it is when I pack the weight onto any exercise that I have problems. I will post an update again in a couple of weeks.