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Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!
- Thread starter BionicBC
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blut wump
New member
By 'day2' I assume you mean 'day2, week1'. Drop the weight rather than the reps unless you know that you get particularly knackered by deads or are up near 2x bodyweight.Topside said:
You shouldn't be using so much weight in the first week that you feel worn out by the weight rather than the volume. The first week is mostly about warning your body that it's in for some work over the next few weeks. The second week you should be lining yourself up, weightwise, to be able to make a reasonable leap to be hitting or slightly bettering old best 5x5 lifts, or estimates, in week3. It sounds like you're pushing too hard in week1.
Think of the first four weeks as easy, medium, hard, harder.
M
musclemuscle
Guest
Finish PCT, get some normal weeks of training under your belt (not anything very taxing) and then start a 4 week volume cycle - alternatively start much lighter and go for 6 weeks. The important part is you want to be well outside of PCT, fully back to normal, and in an unfatigued state before beginning.devilman13 said:
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
DO what blutwump said. It's tough to make a call not knowing specifically where you failed and whether you are running 2x or 3x and whether or not you failed on a 3x3 or 1x3. All that said, it ain't rocket science so either hold the weight the same or push it up a bit if you are near the end (which you should be if you are failing).
SublimeZM said:
DO what blutwump said. It's tough to make a call not knowing specifically where you failed and whether you are running 2x or 3x and whether or not you failed on a 3x3 or 1x3. All that said, it ain't rocket science so either hold the weight the same or push it up a bit if you are near the end (which you should be if you are failing).
siamesedream
New member
I'm a novice lifter who's been doing freeweights for a little more than 2 months and love the sound of this program. I've decided to take up Animalmass' version of the program but I'm going to be doing it single-factor instead of dual-factor. In Animalmass' description, he said that if you're only going to do it as a single-factor program, be more conservative with the weights. So, my question is, at what intensity should I be lifting at? I just got a friend to sign up at the gym so I now have a workout partner for the first time, and we're gonna spend tomorrow and Friday determining maxes on deadlifts, rows, squats, and benches so we'll have an idea of where we are when we start the program together next Monday.
Anyways, on all of the lifts, should I choose a weight where it is extremely hard to push it up for 5 sets of 5, or a weight that I can do for 5 sets of 5 with a little pushing of myself or exactly what should it be? On benching, for example, I've been doing 3 sets of 10,7,5 or 6 with an unbelievably wimpy 155 pounds which, nonetheless, the most I am able to do for 10,7, and 5 or 6 (at least without a spotter). Therefore, does 155 sound like a good weight to do 5 sets of 5 with? Then, if I am able to do 5 sets of 5, I increase the weights by 5 or 10 pounds as stated, but if I am only able to do 3 or 4 sets of 5 with the heavier weight, and my last set is only for 2 or 3 reps, do I take some weight off and get a last set of 5 in since "you MUST stick to the required volume and frequency"? Also, say I did 5 sets of 5 on all exercises on Monday, do I bump up the weight used on Wednesday and Friday or I do wait for the next week to increase my weights?
Also, why is it that, on Friday, squats are the only thing you actually "work up to a max set of 5" with (in animalmass' description, which is the one I think I'll be doing)?
Lastly, does cardio have a place within this program? I'd like to be able to do cardio 5 times a week.
Thanks in advance!
Anyways, on all of the lifts, should I choose a weight where it is extremely hard to push it up for 5 sets of 5, or a weight that I can do for 5 sets of 5 with a little pushing of myself or exactly what should it be? On benching, for example, I've been doing 3 sets of 10,7,5 or 6 with an unbelievably wimpy 155 pounds which, nonetheless, the most I am able to do for 10,7, and 5 or 6 (at least without a spotter). Therefore, does 155 sound like a good weight to do 5 sets of 5 with? Then, if I am able to do 5 sets of 5, I increase the weights by 5 or 10 pounds as stated, but if I am only able to do 3 or 4 sets of 5 with the heavier weight, and my last set is only for 2 or 3 reps, do I take some weight off and get a last set of 5 in since "you MUST stick to the required volume and frequency"? Also, say I did 5 sets of 5 on all exercises on Monday, do I bump up the weight used on Wednesday and Friday or I do wait for the next week to increase my weights?
Also, why is it that, on Friday, squats are the only thing you actually "work up to a max set of 5" with (in animalmass' description, which is the one I think I'll be doing)?
Lastly, does cardio have a place within this program? I'd like to be able to do cardio 5 times a week.
Thanks in advance!
Well it's my second run at the program and im trying 2 weeks of loading followed by 1 week of deloading. Running that cycle 2 or 3 times then intensity, so this is my 4th week of this and i've ramped up slowly, but maybe it was just extremely hot in my basement, i usually do all 5 sets but the first three just kicked my ass so i stopped and continued onto presses and pull ups
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
First, all the versions of this program are the same one, they are just written up differently or were for different people. The most comprehensive of them all is here: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4764723&postcount=381
Second, if you've only been training with free weights for 2 months no matter which version you choose, they are too much volume, and inappropriate. There is a single factor novice version in the table of contents. You'll notice that the volume is a lot lower. I also linked a volume comparison so you get the idea:
Novice/Non-periodized Version: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4497774&postcount=15
Loads Explained and Novice vs. Periodized Calculations: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5017744&postcount=686
This is the squatting progression Glen Pendlay and Mark Rippetoe use for new lifters from 1-2 years until periodization becomes important: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4658227&postcount=235
Rippetoe's new book that covers programing and the lifts (probably the best money you'll spend): www.startingstrength.com
Be on the lookout for Matt Reynold's upcoming interview with Ripptoe at www.readthecore.com
siamesedream said:
First, all the versions of this program are the same one, they are just written up differently or were for different people. The most comprehensive of them all is here: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4764723&postcount=381
Second, if you've only been training with free weights for 2 months no matter which version you choose, they are too much volume, and inappropriate. There is a single factor novice version in the table of contents. You'll notice that the volume is a lot lower. I also linked a volume comparison so you get the idea:
Novice/Non-periodized Version: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4497774&postcount=15
Loads Explained and Novice vs. Periodized Calculations: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5017744&postcount=686
This is the squatting progression Glen Pendlay and Mark Rippetoe use for new lifters from 1-2 years until periodization becomes important: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4658227&postcount=235
Rippetoe's new book that covers programing and the lifts (probably the best money you'll spend): www.startingstrength.com
Be on the lookout for Matt Reynold's upcoming interview with Ripptoe at www.readthecore.com
siamesedream
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Well, the reason why I wanted to do animalmass' is because, even though I'm an extreme novice in every sense, my previous workout schedule was extremely high-volume high-intensity and was 6 days a week and incredibly grueling. The novice version in there seems like it's not enough to help me tax my body as much as I want to since I'm 220 pounds and probably have a lean body mass of around 160-170 and need to lose tons of fat.
P.S. in no way in any of my posts am I saying "I'm going to do this" or "I'm going to do that". I'm simply stating my mindset and approach to bodybuilding hoping to have it corrected since I know it's probably very flawed. I recognize my place among all you awesome bodybuilders and lifters here and am IN NO WAY trying to "tell" you what I'm going to be doing. Like I said though, what my mind is telling me right now is that the novice version seems a bit too easy compared to what I've been doing for the last 2+ months which is the reason why a single-factor higher-volume version caught my eye.
Madcow2 said:
Well, the reason why I wanted to do animalmass' is because, even though I'm an extreme novice in every sense, my previous workout schedule was extremely high-volume high-intensity and was 6 days a week and incredibly grueling. The novice version in there seems like it's not enough to help me tax my body as much as I want to since I'm 220 pounds and probably have a lean body mass of around 160-170 and need to lose tons of fat.
P.S. in no way in any of my posts am I saying "I'm going to do this" or "I'm going to do that". I'm simply stating my mindset and approach to bodybuilding hoping to have it corrected since I know it's probably very flawed. I recognize my place among all you awesome bodybuilders and lifters here and am IN NO WAY trying to "tell" you what I'm going to be doing. Like I said though, what my mind is telling me right now is that the novice version seems a bit too easy compared to what I've been doing for the last 2+ months which is the reason why a single-factor higher-volume version caught my eye.
I don't know what version you are talking about of the 5x5 but all the periodized writeups are the same program so it's not like Animalmass' can be a better or worse fit or more or less volume. It's like saying I prefer black rather than black because I feel black is a better fit due to it being more black. Maybe give me a link so I understand.
seizer
New member
hey mc, if I want to throw in those power shrugs into my new 5x5 routine, should I pull out the military press or keep it in? Or should I not even bother at all? Its funny because my priorities this time around is building my traps and shoulders so it would seem stupid to replace the shrugs for the mp. And I certainly cant get rid of the dl's. Is the wednesday squat absolutley necessary even if I still have 4 solid compound lifts?
Keep the overhead work. You can add the shrugs as assistance work on M/F or both. Something like 3 sets for reps would work. Keep the reps higher and train it lighter if doing it 2x per week - this is probably the best solution if the lift is new for you and you haven't put in some time with it. If you have spent time training the lift and want to make it a serious commitment replace bent rows with the shrugs done from just above the knee (making it into more of a very heavy clean pull with longer ROM and more fully body emphasis).ceasar989 said:
siamesedream
New member
Madcow2 said:
Alright. This beginner link right here http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4497774&postcount=15
is different from this link right here
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4497628&postcount=10
only in the sense that the first link wants you to work up to a full-out set of 5 while the 2nd link wants you to find the heaviest weight that you can do for a full-out set of 5 and keep the same weight throughout all 5 sets. Again, the first link wants you to go up in weight throughout all 5 sets while the 2nd wants you to keep the weight the same and bump it up as soon as you can do all 5 sets. What I'm saying is I'd rather do a set weight for 5 sets because it's higher intensity and a lower intensity workout would cause my fat-loss progress to slow down.
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Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Okay - the novice version is different - I thought you were talking about differences between the 3 linked periodized descriptions in the table of contents (one of which is Animalmass', the others being mine and JS182's - but all the same program).
The bottom line is that you simply won't be able to tolerate that kind of load where you are squatting for 5x5 3 times per week with similar applications along the other exercises. As a matter of fact, very few can tolerate that indefinitely (maybe some very elite lifters) which is why it works for periodization and pushes experienced lifters into overreaching (and overtraining if they didn't periodize - myself included). You need less volume so that you can train linearly, a la single factor, and you'll actually get great results from this with a lot less hassle and likelyhood of screwing things up.
It's not like the novice version is for first time weight trainers. Starr used this program for college level athletes and football players who have years of training under their belts. You just don't have the tolerance or work capacity accrued to tolerate that much load (it's over 100% more) and you'll wind up with inferior results - maybe drastically.
You're mixing things up. First - I like to use the real definition of intensity as a quantifiable variable representing a given % of a person's 1RM that a lift is being performed at. Second, what you are terming intensity is just a matter of effort required. Well, it's so much effort and the volume and frequency are so high that you can't sustain the load for long and it won't work for you. Second, this extra anaerobic effort put forth only has a minimal impact on calories while training and that is the only tie-in to fat loss from the workout itself. The other tie-in would be that muscle gained would increase your caloric requirement and use up calories currently going to excess fat - that's nice but you had better not be lean and trying to pull this off because you won't make gains. All that said, you'll make better gains from the novice program so that wipes any advantage. So just forget about one option being better for fat loss than the other - you choose the weight program that is appropriate and it will provide far better benefits.
And, finally of course - hopefully if you are lean you aren't trying to add muscle and lose fat at the same time.
siamesedream said:
Okay - the novice version is different - I thought you were talking about differences between the 3 linked periodized descriptions in the table of contents (one of which is Animalmass', the others being mine and JS182's - but all the same program).
The bottom line is that you simply won't be able to tolerate that kind of load where you are squatting for 5x5 3 times per week with similar applications along the other exercises. As a matter of fact, very few can tolerate that indefinitely (maybe some very elite lifters) which is why it works for periodization and pushes experienced lifters into overreaching (and overtraining if they didn't periodize - myself included). You need less volume so that you can train linearly, a la single factor, and you'll actually get great results from this with a lot less hassle and likelyhood of screwing things up.
It's not like the novice version is for first time weight trainers. Starr used this program for college level athletes and football players who have years of training under their belts. You just don't have the tolerance or work capacity accrued to tolerate that much load (it's over 100% more) and you'll wind up with inferior results - maybe drastically.
siamesedream said:
You're mixing things up. First - I like to use the real definition of intensity as a quantifiable variable representing a given % of a person's 1RM that a lift is being performed at. Second, what you are terming intensity is just a matter of effort required. Well, it's so much effort and the volume and frequency are so high that you can't sustain the load for long and it won't work for you. Second, this extra anaerobic effort put forth only has a minimal impact on calories while training and that is the only tie-in to fat loss from the workout itself. The other tie-in would be that muscle gained would increase your caloric requirement and use up calories currently going to excess fat - that's nice but you had better not be lean and trying to pull this off because you won't make gains. All that said, you'll make better gains from the novice program so that wipes any advantage. So just forget about one option being better for fat loss than the other - you choose the weight program that is appropriate and it will provide far better benefits.
And, finally of course - hopefully if you are lean you aren't trying to add muscle and lose fat at the same time.
siamesedream
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Thanks a bunch for the reply, that was some great information. Alright, I'll be doing the single-factor novice version then. I'll spend today and Friday figuring out what my top set for each exercise should be, which is the amount of weight I can just barely push for 5, right?
Madcow2 said:
Thanks a bunch for the reply, that was some great information. Alright, I'll be doing the single-factor novice version then. I'll spend today and Friday figuring out what my top set for each exercise should be, which is the amount of weight I can just barely push for 5, right?
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
The layout is such that you don't really need to be very precise, you can just gradually work your way into the program over a series of weeks and you'll very quickly find out what your weights are.
I advise gradually working your way into it because a lot of people simply aren't used to the kind of frequency and load from the core lifts that these programs employ (yes, even the novice one). When you combine relatively low levels of base volume and conditioning, the workload from these programs, and the strength and weight gain that many experience, it's fertile ground for tendonitis and overuse injuries. Just take it slow and gradually acclimate yourself, you'll be amazed at just how well this type of training works.
All that said, diet is totally up to you. Make sure you read my post on diet and caloric excess in the table of contents and then do as much research as you wish on the topic (I say read my post first because it is always the diet nazis that have trouble gaining muscle so you need to understand why this is so).
The layout is such that you don't really need to be very precise, you can just gradually work your way into the program over a series of weeks and you'll very quickly find out what your weights are.
I advise gradually working your way into it because a lot of people simply aren't used to the kind of frequency and load from the core lifts that these programs employ (yes, even the novice one). When you combine relatively low levels of base volume and conditioning, the workload from these programs, and the strength and weight gain that many experience, it's fertile ground for tendonitis and overuse injuries. Just take it slow and gradually acclimate yourself, you'll be amazed at just how well this type of training works.
All that said, diet is totally up to you. Make sure you read my post on diet and caloric excess in the table of contents and then do as much research as you wish on the topic (I say read my post first because it is always the diet nazis that have trouble gaining muscle so you need to understand why this is so).
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siamesedream
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
I read your thing on food and calories and found a ton of good info in there. My BF% is probably 25 or something, maybe more but hopefully not. So, what my diet is right now is eating carbs on the weekend from non-processed foods and eating mostly meat and vegetables during the week with some blueberries or something right after lifting. I'll try to add some more calories from beef after reading your thing though since I currently am eating around 1600-1800 calories a day at the moment.
On another note, I just got back from the gym and I have to say I love this program. What was really humiliating for my own mind's scrutiny was the fact that, even as a total novice, I bench way more than I squat. I've never squatted or deadlifted in my life, but I did squats, benching, rows, situps, close-grip benching, and curls today. I started out on squats expecting to go a 5th set of 200 pounds and, as it turned out, my 5-rep squatting max is an incredibly wimpy 150. For benching, I did
75x5
100x5
125x5
150x5
175x5
and I was successful on the last set. Does this mean I should bump up 5 pounds on all the weights for the next time? It seems like the first set you do should be a bit less than half of what the last set is going to be and then you make even jumps in between, am I correct?
Also, I did rows today and I felt the pain in my lowerback but none in my upper back, does this mean I'm doing them incorrectly?
And one last question for now until I have more after doing deadlifting instead of rowing on Friday: How much resting time should there be in between sets? I have one workout partner and we just went immediately after one another for the first 3 sets and waited a minute or so before the 4th and 5th set.
Madcow2 said:
I read your thing on food and calories and found a ton of good info in there. My BF% is probably 25 or something, maybe more but hopefully not. So, what my diet is right now is eating carbs on the weekend from non-processed foods and eating mostly meat and vegetables during the week with some blueberries or something right after lifting. I'll try to add some more calories from beef after reading your thing though since I currently am eating around 1600-1800 calories a day at the moment.
On another note, I just got back from the gym and I have to say I love this program. What was really humiliating for my own mind's scrutiny was the fact that, even as a total novice, I bench way more than I squat. I've never squatted or deadlifted in my life, but I did squats, benching, rows, situps, close-grip benching, and curls today. I started out on squats expecting to go a 5th set of 200 pounds and, as it turned out, my 5-rep squatting max is an incredibly wimpy 150. For benching, I did
75x5
100x5
125x5
150x5
175x5
and I was successful on the last set. Does this mean I should bump up 5 pounds on all the weights for the next time? It seems like the first set you do should be a bit less than half of what the last set is going to be and then you make even jumps in between, am I correct?
Also, I did rows today and I felt the pain in my lowerback but none in my upper back, does this mean I'm doing them incorrectly?
And one last question for now until I have more after doing deadlifting instead of rowing on Friday: How much resting time should there be in between sets? I have one workout partner and we just went immediately after one another for the first 3 sets and waited a minute or so before the 4th and 5th set.
Guinness5.0
New member
Rest time saren't critical- don't be lazy but don't rush it. Rest enough to give it a solid shot. It sounds like you're resting adequately.
As for rows, are you rounding your low back? Absolutely don't. It could just be that your erectors are fried b/c squats and rows are new and therefore take a lot out of them. If that's the case you'll become conditioned soon enough.
As for rows, are you rounding your low back? Absolutely don't. It could just be that your erectors are fried b/c squats and rows are new and therefore take a lot out of them. If that's the case you'll become conditioned soon enough.
siamesedream
New member
Guinness5.0 said:
I just did a few rows the way I did them earlier after reading your post and yes, rounding my lower back is exactly what I'm doing, not because I'm too tired to straighten it though, just because I didn't know proper form. Thanks and I'll be sure to do 'em right next Monday.
still waiting for clarification from madcow on this, though:
"For benching, I did
75x5
100x5
125x5
150x5
175x5
and I was successful on the last set. Does this mean I should bump up 5 pounds on all the weights for the next time? It seems like the first set you do should be a bit less than half of what the last set is going to be and then you make even jumps in between, am I correct?"
Guinness5.0
New member
If you haven't already, read the exercise description for rows (part II in TOC). Lots of pics/descriptions. I had never done them before and I absolutley love them now.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
MADCOW OR ANYONE - QUESTION
is there anyway i could add some sort of "pumping" exersise, just for personal satisfaction
would it harm the program to do 1x5 and then instead of 5x5, like 3x10, or 4x10 or something on bench, rows and maybe even squats too, and then when deload/intensity comes make it 2x10 or 3/4x6 or something?
also, if i wanna somehow get some lateral raises in there for my delts, what day do you think it would fall best on.
like if i wanna have curls, calves, and lateral raises, and maybe some shrugs in the calf raise machine (just simply shrugging, no body motion involved so its easy on the system). what days would those best go on?
i know uv previously given the OK on bbcurlks 2-3x10, and same with calves and some shrugs, but what about the lateral raises? do u think that would interfere with recovery too much?
thanks
MADCOW OR ANYONE - QUESTION
is there anyway i could add some sort of "pumping" exersise, just for personal satisfaction
would it harm the program to do 1x5 and then instead of 5x5, like 3x10, or 4x10 or something on bench, rows and maybe even squats too, and then when deload/intensity comes make it 2x10 or 3/4x6 or something?
also, if i wanna somehow get some lateral raises in there for my delts, what day do you think it would fall best on.
like if i wanna have curls, calves, and lateral raises, and maybe some shrugs in the calf raise machine (just simply shrugging, no body motion involved so its easy on the system). what days would those best go on?
i know uv previously given the OK on bbcurlks 2-3x10, and same with calves and some shrugs, but what about the lateral raises? do u think that would interfere with recovery too much?
thanks
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Do not round the back. There are links to pictures of rows in the table of contents.
Use your discretion, it's going to be hard to always have them completely even. You can also manipulate the load by making the jumps smaller but still even. It's probably fine the way you have it for now.
siamesedream said:
Do not round the back. There are links to pictures of rows in the table of contents.
Use your discretion, it's going to be hard to always have them completely even. You can also manipulate the load by making the jumps smaller but still even. It's probably fine the way you have it for now.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
It would critically fuck this entire program. The "pump" means about as much to your hypertrophy as the color of my 2nd dump last night. By moving to higher reps you are drastically changing the parameters of intensity (%1RM), and volume. Experiment after you get a good base and sound application of the existing program (that way when the results are harmed you notice it) or design a separate mesocycle 3:1 around higher reps.
Hmmm, the funniest thing is that most everyone has been surprised by their delt growth from doing no direct work of any kind other than just pressing overhead and rowing. Some have experienced the same for arms (at least those that have not included direct training and didn't have out of proportion development before beginning).
When people have asked to add something (as in one thing) it's generally not too much of a problem but when you start adding all kinds of crap it becomes an issue. Most of this stuff isn't worth the time it takes to do it. Better to get home faster so you can eat sooner. I'm not going to comment on shrugs on a calf machine but really, focus on increasing your core lifts.
From all the talk of high reps, pump, and these bullshit exercises it looks like you are trying to make this into a conventional BBing program. One of the reasons why it works is because it doesn't look like what most BBers do. Their programs are shit and through copious anabolics/anciliaries and genetics (part of which is the favorable response to meds taken) they've managed to succeed in spite of their training not because of it. Don't sweat the small stuff, get big and strong first and then worry about your deltoid balance or calf development. In the end, most find that without all the bullshit they grew fairly uniformly and symetrically without much in the way of isolation work at all. Concentrate on the 95% and spend time on the 5% on an "as needed" basis when the time comes.
SublimeZM said:
It would critically fuck this entire program. The "pump" means about as much to your hypertrophy as the color of my 2nd dump last night. By moving to higher reps you are drastically changing the parameters of intensity (%1RM), and volume. Experiment after you get a good base and sound application of the existing program (that way when the results are harmed you notice it) or design a separate mesocycle 3:1 around higher reps.
SublimeZM said:
Hmmm, the funniest thing is that most everyone has been surprised by their delt growth from doing no direct work of any kind other than just pressing overhead and rowing. Some have experienced the same for arms (at least those that have not included direct training and didn't have out of proportion development before beginning).
When people have asked to add something (as in one thing) it's generally not too much of a problem but when you start adding all kinds of crap it becomes an issue. Most of this stuff isn't worth the time it takes to do it. Better to get home faster so you can eat sooner. I'm not going to comment on shrugs on a calf machine but really, focus on increasing your core lifts.
From all the talk of high reps, pump, and these bullshit exercises it looks like you are trying to make this into a conventional BBing program. One of the reasons why it works is because it doesn't look like what most BBers do. Their programs are shit and through copious anabolics/anciliaries and genetics (part of which is the favorable response to meds taken) they've managed to succeed in spite of their training not because of it. Don't sweat the small stuff, get big and strong first and then worry about your deltoid balance or calf development. In the end, most find that without all the bullshit they grew fairly uniformly and symetrically without much in the way of isolation work at all. Concentrate on the 95% and spend time on the 5% on an "as needed" basis when the time comes.
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Just linking a few things for future reference when I update my thread TOC again.
go2failure's journal: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=404215
jim quini's journal: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=391939
super_rice's Korte 3x3 journal: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=408645
Guiness5.0's journal: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=399754
go2failure's journal: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=404215
jim quini's journal: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=391939
super_rice's Korte 3x3 journal: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=408645
Guiness5.0's journal: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=399754
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
anyway, so no lateral raises?
also final thing and ill stop trying to fuck up the program...what about switching pullups with bb row, so id be doing 5x5 bb row on wednesday , and 1x5 and 5x5 pullups
well, that "how to work your chest" video just scared me a little... which is why im second guessing. i was pretty much trying to find a happy medium between some of the bb concepts and powerlifting concepts, since i figured your still using periodization and dual factor. guess not tho...Madcow2 said:
anyway, so no lateral raises?
also final thing and ill stop trying to fuck up the program...what about switching pullups with bb row, so id be doing 5x5 bb row on wednesday , and 1x5 and 5x5 pullups
Guinness5.0
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
That thing is pure nonsense. It simply perpetuates more of the myths that run rampant in gyms everywhere. Think of that vid as a big stinking turd wrapped up in a nice box with a pretty bow on it.SublimeZM said:
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
I can make a nice piece presenting my theories on quantum physics too. It might even sound okay to the lay public (because I'm smooth like that
) but anyone with a bit of knowledge in the field would know I don't have a damn clue. It ranks up there with most BBing publications and pieces out there - utter trash bordering on ethical irresponsibility. Really, by Rippetoe's book at www.startingstrength.com or any of the following if you want to really learn about training and programming:
Supertraining
Science and Practice of Strength Training
A System of Multi Year Training in Weightlifting
Fundmentals of Special Strength Training in Sport
Managing the Training of Weightlifters
I wouldn't waste my time or even an ounce of recovery on them unless there was some specific issue (meaning a problem or imbalance, they have no place in a general desire to gain size program). This stuff is right there with kickbacks. Your time is spent better doing rotator cuff work by a large margin.
First, if you think you'll get a wide back faster just forget about that.
Second, I'd be very leary of this. It can work but in the overwhelming majority of cases most people need rowing strength far more than they need pullup strength. A properly executed row is the same plane as the bench and too many people have rows that are far far weaker than their bench - this leads to imbalances and possible injury. Either way, I think you'd be disappointed in the results simply because rows are better at adding mass and activate the lats in a major way. Use the plain vanilla and save it for future experimentations (i.e. that way you'll know it doesn't work as well or in some case might be used to address something specific). Note: much of this future experimentation never gets done because people don't like screwing with it after they see how well it works.
SublimeZM said:
I can make a nice piece presenting my theories on quantum physics too. It might even sound okay to the lay public (because I'm smooth like that
) but anyone with a bit of knowledge in the field would know I don't have a damn clue. It ranks up there with most BBing publications and pieces out there - utter trash bordering on ethical irresponsibility. Really, by Rippetoe's book at www.startingstrength.com or any of the following if you want to really learn about training and programming:Supertraining
Science and Practice of Strength Training
A System of Multi Year Training in Weightlifting
Fundmentals of Special Strength Training in Sport
Managing the Training of Weightlifters
SublimeZM said:
I wouldn't waste my time or even an ounce of recovery on them unless there was some specific issue (meaning a problem or imbalance, they have no place in a general desire to gain size program). This stuff is right there with kickbacks. Your time is spent better doing rotator cuff work by a large margin.
SublimeZM said:
First, if you think you'll get a wide back faster just forget about that.
Second, I'd be very leary of this. It can work but in the overwhelming majority of cases most people need rowing strength far more than they need pullup strength. A properly executed row is the same plane as the bench and too many people have rows that are far far weaker than their bench - this leads to imbalances and possible injury. Either way, I think you'd be disappointed in the results simply because rows are better at adding mass and activate the lats in a major way. Use the plain vanilla and save it for future experimentations (i.e. that way you'll know it doesn't work as well or in some case might be used to address something specific). Note: much of this future experimentation never gets done because people don't like screwing with it after they see how well it works.
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Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
im not gunna touch it then, thanks again
alright thanks alot for taking your time to address my questions with real reasons instead of brushing em off...Madcow2 said:I can make a nice piece presenting my theories on quantum physics too. It might even sound okay to the lay public (because I'm smooth like that
Supertraining
Science and Practice of Strength Training
A System of Multi Year Training in Weightlifting
Fundmentals of Special Strength Training in Sport
Managing the Training of Weightlifters
I wouldn't waste my time or even an ounce of recovery on them unless there was some specific issue (meaning a problem or imbalance, they have no place in a general desire to gain size program). This stuff is right there with kickbacks. Your time is spent better doing rotator cuff work by a large margin.
First, if you think you'll get a wide back faster just forget about that.
Second, I'd be very leary of this. It can work but in the overwhelming majority of cases most people need rowing strength far more than they need pullup strength. A properly executed row is the same plane as the bench and too many people have rows that are far far weaker than their bench - this leads to imbalances and possible injury. Either way, I think you'd be disappointed in the results simply because rows are better at adding mass and activate the lats in a major way. Use the plain vanilla and save it for future experimentations (i.e. that way you'll know it doesn't work as well or in some case might be used to address something specific). Note: much of this future experimentation never gets done because people don't like screwing with it after they see how well it works.
im not gunna touch it then, thanks again
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Mark Rippetoe Interview - Part I
For those that aren't familiar with him he owns the Wichita Falls Athletic Club where Glenn Pendlay trains the weightlifting team. Glenn has said he might be the best person in the country at putting muscle on novice lifters. Probably no surprise that Rippetoe has had the benefit of a lengthy relationship with Bill Starr and was heavily influenced by him.
Part I touches on training and squatting a bit but is mainly bio and overview. Part II next month will deal more with programming. If someone wanted to get a better idea on the squat progression there is a link in the table of contents where Pendlay summarizes the first 1-2 year progression. Rippetoe's new book is also available at www.startingstrength.com. It's geared mainly toward coaches teaching the lifts and programming for novices but no doubt more will come and many will find its comprehensive coverage of the lifts insightful and useful regardless of their own level of competency..
Part I is here:
http://www.readthecore.com/200507/trenches.htm
Mark Rippetoe Interview - Part I
For those that aren't familiar with him he owns the Wichita Falls Athletic Club where Glenn Pendlay trains the weightlifting team. Glenn has said he might be the best person in the country at putting muscle on novice lifters. Probably no surprise that Rippetoe has had the benefit of a lengthy relationship with Bill Starr and was heavily influenced by him.
Part I touches on training and squatting a bit but is mainly bio and overview. Part II next month will deal more with programming. If someone wanted to get a better idea on the squat progression there is a link in the table of contents where Pendlay summarizes the first 1-2 year progression. Rippetoe's new book is also available at www.startingstrength.com. It's geared mainly toward coaches teaching the lifts and programming for novices but no doubt more will come and many will find its comprehensive coverage of the lifts insightful and useful regardless of their own level of competency..
Part I is here:
http://www.readthecore.com/200507/trenches.htm
Tom Treutlein
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Why would you bother trying to down a gallon of milk in a day?
EDIT: Read the link. Great, he can down a gallon of milk in fifteen minutes.
What a wonderful feat. I'm sure the guy knows his stuff, but that was a pretty stupid thing to throw in there, as if it makes him special.
"Holy crap, did you see that!? 16 glasses of milk in fifteen minutes! That's more than a glass a minute! We should totally listen to him!"
Why would you bother trying to down a gallon of milk in a day?
EDIT: Read the link. Great, he can down a gallon of milk in fifteen minutes.
What a wonderful feat. I'm sure the guy knows his stuff, but that was a pretty stupid thing to throw in there, as if it makes him special."Holy crap, did you see that!? 16 glasses of milk in fifteen minutes! That's more than a glass a minute! We should totally listen to him!"
Question for Madcow:
I have been doing the beginners 5x5 for about 2 months now (http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4497774&postcount=15), and was wondering whether it's time for me to switch to a new style of training?
I don't think I require periodized training as yet because I'm still essentially a beginner, but I was thinking of trying Animal Mass's 5x5 which requires a 5x5 on the Monday lifts and a 1x5 on the Friday lifts working to a target weight.
Would it be beneficial to switch to that routine for a couple of months?
I have been doing the beginners 5x5 for about 2 months now (http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4497774&postcount=15), and was wondering whether it's time for me to switch to a new style of training?
I don't think I require periodized training as yet because I'm still essentially a beginner, but I was thinking of trying Animal Mass's 5x5 which requires a 5x5 on the Monday lifts and a 1x5 on the Friday lifts working to a target weight.
Would it be beneficial to switch to that routine for a couple of months?
blut wump
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Hey, it's not as impressive as it might sound. It was probably only an American gallon which is only 80% of an Imperial gallon. Still, with a decent dual-factor program, you have to leave something in the tank. I'm sure he could have managed an Imperial gallon during a max-effort week.Tom Treutlein said:Why would you bother trying to down a gallon of milk in a day?
EDIT: Read the link. Great, he can down a gallon of milk in fifteen minutes.
"Holy crap, did you see that!? 16 glasses of milk in fifteen minutes! That's more than a glass a minute! We should totally listen to him!"
siamesedream
New member
Alright, I finished figuring out where I should start on all of the exercises as of next Monday, but I still got a few questions for you, madcow.
1. I do resistance cardio with recumbent bikes and would like to do them every day, would this interfere with recovery from the squats and deadlifts?
2. I weigh 217 pounds and have a bad BMI. One of the consequences of that is that I can't do more than 1 dip. Is there a possible substitute exercise for this and, if not, what should I do? Close-grip benching? Decline benching?
3. How long can this novice program last? I'm absolutely loving it right now as I'm using more power in my workouts than ever before. The reason I ask is, I have a friend who's been working out for quite some time and he benches 600 pounds and is only a college sophomore. I asked him what his routine is and, apparently, he's using the same single-factor 5x5 routine that I'm starting officially next Monday.
1. I do resistance cardio with recumbent bikes and would like to do them every day, would this interfere with recovery from the squats and deadlifts?
2. I weigh 217 pounds and have a bad BMI. One of the consequences of that is that I can't do more than 1 dip. Is there a possible substitute exercise for this and, if not, what should I do? Close-grip benching? Decline benching?
3. How long can this novice program last? I'm absolutely loving it right now as I'm using more power in my workouts than ever before. The reason I ask is, I have a friend who's been working out for quite some time and he benches 600 pounds and is only a college sophomore. I asked him what his routine is and, apparently, he's using the same single-factor 5x5 routine that I'm starting officially next Monday.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
well, at 6 meals a day, thats about 3 glasses per meal, which isnt bad at all.
i didnt mean in one sitting.. thatd be stupid to me.. i dont wanna puke.
but just in general, drink more milk.. i dont drink any.
Tom Treutlein said:Why would you bother trying to down a gallon of milk in a day?
EDIT: Read the link. Great, he can down a gallon of milk in fifteen minutes.
"Holy crap, did you see that!? 16 glasses of milk in fifteen minutes! That's more than a glass a minute! We should totally listen to him!"
well, at 6 meals a day, thats about 3 glasses per meal, which isnt bad at all.
i didnt mean in one sitting.. thatd be stupid to me.. i dont wanna puke.
but just in general, drink more milk.. i dont drink any.
Powershrug question
If you can use even more weight on powershrugs than on DLs, wouldnt powershrugs overload your back even more? I ask this because my lower back takes about 4 days to recover from heavy deadlifts. I know the whole GM/powerclean/powershrug combo aims to avoid the CNS fatigue from deadlifts while building the deadlift, but i wonder if it also addresses my issue with muscular fatigue and recovery. I would think I would have the same problem with powershrugs, no?
If you can use even more weight on powershrugs than on DLs, wouldnt powershrugs overload your back even more? I ask this because my lower back takes about 4 days to recover from heavy deadlifts. I know the whole GM/powerclean/powershrug combo aims to avoid the CNS fatigue from deadlifts while building the deadlift, but i wonder if it also addresses my issue with muscular fatigue and recovery. I would think I would have the same problem with powershrugs, no?
just got the strongest shall survive and one of starr's programs uses what he calls the big three being squat, bench, and power clean working those 3 days a week. Im thinking once i finish the next run of madcow's 5x5 of trying out something like:
Mon: squat, bench, power cleans or rows
wed: squat, inclines, rows or power cleans
fri: squat, bench, power cleans or rows
maybe alittle assistant work here or there
Mon: squat, bench, power cleans or rows
wed: squat, inclines, rows or power cleans
fri: squat, bench, power cleans or rows
maybe alittle assistant work here or there
There is no Animalmass 5x5, they are all exactly the same program.|D_J^B_J| said:
If you want to add some volume you can add some volume, the periodized one has enough volume to overtrain someone who isn't managing it so that means it's too much for most experienced lifters and too much for a beginner. Change the rep scheme or some such for what you are doing if you want. Read Pendlay's description of Rippetoe's squatting template in the TOC is you want to get an idea on how they scale volume over time. To be honest, I'd hammer the program you are doing for quite a while longer. Wait until you get a bit stale, take a break, start the weights lower and push on it again.
Tom Treutlein
New member
I typically get half a gallon of milk in a day. A little more, actually - nine glasses. The only issue I had with this was the bloating it tended to cause, albeit slight. I found a way to remedy that, though. 2 tbsp of apple cider vinegar before each of my shakes!
http://forum.avantlabs.com/index.php?showtopic=15295&pid=239924&st=90&#entry239924
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=12;t=1063
http://forum.avantlabs.com/index.php?showtopic=15295&pid=239924&st=90&#entry239924
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=12;t=1063
Re: Powershrug question
The strict powershrug has a very small range of motion and doesn't load the lower back too heavily. When people want to substitute a dynamic pulling variation into the 5x5 generally they are doing it from a lower position, increasing ROM, and turning it into more of a heavy clean pull from the traditional hang position (just above knees). This is more fatiguing but it's not like you can add even the regular powershrug with no consequences, it's still a damn heavy movement, it just doesn't pound the lower back as badly or fatigue the CNS to near the same extent as deads for an experienced lifter.lavi said:
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Obviously any activity is going to bear on workload. Generally cardio is fine as long as it isn't rediculous or a major increase above what you can currently accomodate. To be honest, I really feel the best cardio work is done in some type of interval method, whether timed or distanced. If you look at endurance athletes they don't train to pound out a distance at a single intensity every day - the result of which is a relatively slow but consistent finisher. I'd really recommend not doing constant pace over a long distance or for a long time period. Do some reading on HIIT - high intensity interval training. Also keep in mind that high intensities like short maximal sprinting are taxing on the CNS and can also be anaerobic in nature. I wouldn't recommend a high volume of high intensity cardio on a daily basis. Just stuff to keep in mind and research as you put together a balanced program that fits your conditioning, needs, goals.
I'll leave it up to you. Maybe there's a machine variant at your gym - not as good but dips aren't an integral breaking point in the program. If you are doing any version of benches I'd keep in on the moderate side and not overtax the movement.
To be honest, it always amazes me when people want to swap out of this program after a month or two and are having great gains. My feeling is that if you can make linear progress you should hammer it as long as you can, it's not like anyone but a fairly experienced lifter is going to get excess gains from periodization and anyone not at that level may end up sacrificing gains just due to complexity. My feeling is that you hammer it as long as you can. When you plateau, you cut back a bit for a few weeks and then hammer at it again (just restart a bit lighter). Another alternative is a sort of psuedo-periodization where you cut the volume and lower the reps, still increasing the weight, and then jump back to the full version after a period of lower volume helps you recovery (it's periodization but you just aren't being ultra regimented or strict with it - tends to work pretty damn well for a lot of people). If you make consistent progress why change what is working - I certainly wouldn't.
siamesedream said:
Obviously any activity is going to bear on workload. Generally cardio is fine as long as it isn't rediculous or a major increase above what you can currently accomodate. To be honest, I really feel the best cardio work is done in some type of interval method, whether timed or distanced. If you look at endurance athletes they don't train to pound out a distance at a single intensity every day - the result of which is a relatively slow but consistent finisher. I'd really recommend not doing constant pace over a long distance or for a long time period. Do some reading on HIIT - high intensity interval training. Also keep in mind that high intensities like short maximal sprinting are taxing on the CNS and can also be anaerobic in nature. I wouldn't recommend a high volume of high intensity cardio on a daily basis. Just stuff to keep in mind and research as you put together a balanced program that fits your conditioning, needs, goals.
siamesedream said:
I'll leave it up to you. Maybe there's a machine variant at your gym - not as good but dips aren't an integral breaking point in the program. If you are doing any version of benches I'd keep in on the moderate side and not overtax the movement.
siamesedream said:
To be honest, it always amazes me when people want to swap out of this program after a month or two and are having great gains. My feeling is that if you can make linear progress you should hammer it as long as you can, it's not like anyone but a fairly experienced lifter is going to get excess gains from periodization and anyone not at that level may end up sacrificing gains just due to complexity. My feeling is that you hammer it as long as you can. When you plateau, you cut back a bit for a few weeks and then hammer at it again (just restart a bit lighter). Another alternative is a sort of psuedo-periodization where you cut the volume and lower the reps, still increasing the weight, and then jump back to the full version after a period of lower volume helps you recovery (it's periodization but you just aren't being ultra regimented or strict with it - tends to work pretty damn well for a lot of people). If you make consistent progress why change what is working - I certainly wouldn't.
Re: Powershrug question
Programming training is a combination of art and science and has to be tailored to the trainee who, through the very nature of his training, is constantly changing and evolving.
Depends on range of motion, weight used, and where a lifter is weak (i.e. if he's weak at lockout and the top portion relative to his strength from the floor).lavi said:
Programming training is a combination of art and science and has to be tailored to the trainee who, through the very nature of his training, is constantly changing and evolving.
Tom Treutlein
New member
Hahaha C&C fags. 
Really, milk raises estrogen? Bring forth the peer-reviewed evidence! Wait, what's that? You have none? Just shut your fucking mouth, you fucking moron.
Really, milk raises estrogen? Bring forth the peer-reviewed evidence! Wait, what's that? You have none? Just shut your fucking mouth, you fucking moron.
patsfan1379
New member
Tom Treutlein said:Hahaha C&C fags.
you will be bombed everyday for 30 days.
watch it happen.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
I will be very pissed off if there is more bullshit posted on my thread. You'll notice the topic is Bill Starr's 5x5 and not 'Immature Pissing Match'.
Take it to chat with the rest of the useless bullshit, take it to PM, email, instant message, exchange addresses and all go beat the crap out of each other, I couldn't care less as long as it's not here.
This thread is a resource for forum members and those interested in training theory, I can't count the number of hours invested, please respect what is a relatively large effort (and I like to think successful) solely to help others and do not post any crap on this thread again.
I asked once nicely and it was ignored. Have some respect and take the immature internet bullshit elsewhere which is as easy and convenient as not replying here and using a PM instead or starting a new thread in chat.
EDIT: I posted this before I saw the above - thanks KillahBee
I will be very pissed off if there is more bullshit posted on my thread. You'll notice the topic is Bill Starr's 5x5 and not 'Immature Pissing Match'.
Take it to chat with the rest of the useless bullshit, take it to PM, email, instant message, exchange addresses and all go beat the crap out of each other, I couldn't care less as long as it's not here.
This thread is a resource for forum members and those interested in training theory, I can't count the number of hours invested, please respect what is a relatively large effort (and I like to think successful) solely to help others and do not post any crap on this thread again.
I asked once nicely and it was ignored. Have some respect and take the immature internet bullshit elsewhere which is as easy and convenient as not replying here and using a PM instead or starting a new thread in chat.
EDIT: I posted this before I saw the above - thanks KillahBee
patsfan1379
New member
KillahBee said:
i agree....
JL_204
New member
I was planning on doing a second training cycle but have run into a little problem.
I used to go to the gym tues, thurs, and sat. But until september i wont be able to be that consistent.
For the summer it will more than likely be mon, tues, weds.
Can I apply DFT to these days?
Would squatting 3 days in a row be too much?
Should i wait for september to start another 5x5 cycle? If so any suggestion for what i can do in the mean time. I cant go back to training splits, they seem useless to me now.
Thanks
I used to go to the gym tues, thurs, and sat. But until september i wont be able to be that consistent.
For the summer it will more than likely be mon, tues, weds.
Can I apply DFT to these days?
Would squatting 3 days in a row be too much?
Should i wait for september to start another 5x5 cycle? If so any suggestion for what i can do in the mean time. I cant go back to training splits, they seem useless to me now.
Thanks
Yeah M,T,W is a bit rough (3 on /4 off). I'd consider this a maintenance phase in your life, maybe get a bit creative or try to analyze your lifts for weak points and work on those a bit. The stimulus and recovery are too concentrated to really do too much. Maybe work on learning some new lifts like the clean or snatch (good snatch article in the TOC). Watch some videos (on TOC too). Just some ideas.
siamesedream
New member
Edit: post below
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Well, the foundation is primarily an offseason athletic program for increasing performance and bulking athletes so it should work really well. It's only 3 days a week at the most so it fits nicely with skill related training. If you have some familiarity with the olympic lifts, for sports purposes you could put them back into the program substituting powercleans for rows on M/F and clean pulls or high pulls. The OLs and variants are really good at building explosive power and I'm sure you know sports and particularly striking rely on acceleration/force/power for effectiveness (assuming technique is in place).ErnieScar said:
Anyway, there's a few fighters here using it that I've had conversations with. I dabbled a bit in BJJ for a time. A really good friend of mine has spent years doing MMA although he's slowed his pace lately, places well in a pretty decent BJJ tourneys here in the US, has grappled with Rickson Gracie out in Cali back in the mid 1990s, I'm sure there's a lot he's done that I could put here but we tend to talk about other stuff so it's tough to recall it - he reads the thread on occasion so maybe he'll post. Anyway, he's been using this program and variants for quite a while and swears by it.
The bottom line is that more strength and explosion is always helpful but you don't win a fight on this alone so it's most important to have everything else in place. Obviously though if you are going to incorporate strength training you'd like it to be as efficient and effective as possible, and this one is pretty good for that. The most important thing though is that it fits your level of training and is adaptable to your competition schedule. Basically, heavy off-season work and as you prep for a competition move the strength into a maintenence phase, move to lower volume and peak speed and explosive power. I'll provide a quote below it give you an idea, it's taken from the Charlie Francis link on the table of contents which is more geared to discrediting HIT but goes into describing what I've just touched on (obviously I'm kind of rambling a bit but it's very pertinent and it's useful to see how sprinters peak speed and explosive power post-maximizing strength which is relevant for a fighter arriving at competition date in best possible shape fully recovered and at maximum strength and power.
Charlie Francis said:
siamesedream
New member
Well, my first day of officially being on the single-factor is over as it's now Tuesday. I got a bit too cocky yesterday and failed on my last set of bench press. I originally planned to do 75x5 100x5 125x5 150x5 and 175x5 like I tested myself as being able to do last week, but I bumped up all the weight by 5 pounds thinking it would be no problem and hit the shit on the last set. I'll copy and paste my log for yesterday from the logbook I started
Monday log: Squats went perfectly; I may have even been able to deal with 5 more pounds on all lifts. Bench press failed on the last set as I only got 180x2.5 then rested for about 2 minutes and got 175x3. Rows went fine but I’m still not feeling it in my upper back as much as it seems I should be feeling it. I might need to separate my hands by a wider distance on the bar or something. No hyper bench at the gym so I did some stiff-legged deadlifts instead. Upright rows, sit-ups, and cardio went fine as usual. I took some glutamine immediately after lifting which was right before cardio. Had some blueberries and rice milk after I got home. For Bench press on Friday, drop all weight by 5 pounds.
A question for madcow: when you increase the weights you do on Monday by 5 pounds or whatever, are you supposed to increase all the weights for each set by the same "5 pounds or whatever" until the gap between the first and last set is too small? The last set should be a bit more than twice as big as the first, right?
Monday log: Squats went perfectly; I may have even been able to deal with 5 more pounds on all lifts. Bench press failed on the last set as I only got 180x2.5 then rested for about 2 minutes and got 175x3. Rows went fine but I’m still not feeling it in my upper back as much as it seems I should be feeling it. I might need to separate my hands by a wider distance on the bar or something. No hyper bench at the gym so I did some stiff-legged deadlifts instead. Upright rows, sit-ups, and cardio went fine as usual. I took some glutamine immediately after lifting which was right before cardio. Had some blueberries and rice milk after I got home. For Bench press on Friday, drop all weight by 5 pounds.
A question for madcow: when you increase the weights you do on Monday by 5 pounds or whatever, are you supposed to increase all the weights for each set by the same "5 pounds or whatever" until the gap between the first and last set is too small? The last set should be a bit more than twice as big as the first, right?
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
im adding 10 pounds per week, which is what i did last time.
i started out at 65 % of 1rm like last time.
im in the 2nd week of 2nd cycle, and its rough, actually just the bench press. harder then the first time so far. maybe itll even out. i did bench first cuz someone was using the squat rack.. that could have been it. after heavy squats, bench seems a bit easier, im more warmed up
or should i increase by 5 pounds instead?
im adding 10 pounds per week, which is what i did last time.
i started out at 65 % of 1rm like last time.
im in the 2nd week of 2nd cycle, and its rough, actually just the bench press. harder then the first time so far. maybe itll even out. i did bench first cuz someone was using the squat rack.. that could have been it. after heavy squats, bench seems a bit easier, im more warmed up
or should i increase by 5 pounds instead?
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The more work you do before your top set the more fatigued you'll be. You're going to have to go by feel. I'd probably say keep the bottom weight the same and adjust the others every few weeks for even increments between the bottom lift and the top one. That seems like a viable way to do it for a period, after a time reevaluate and readjust the whole scheme. To be honest, I've never spent a lot of time training people on that program. I've used parts of it but don't have a lot of experience in using it on people I've trained or myself which makes me always feel like I'm fumbling around in the dark when helping people out on the little details (it always seems to work out though so not a huge worry). It's really effective and obviously those using the single factor are getting big and strong pretty easily and are very happy (just like everybody else over the last 30 years) I just haven't really delved into the minutia enough to feel confident that there is a 100% best way to handle some of the little bits -to be honest it's probably lifter dependent anyway so it's going to be tough over the net.siamesedream said:
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
I'd worry less about a constant lbs increase per week and just make sure that in weeks 3 and 4 you are breaking previous records. Set weights whereever they need to be for that and go by feel in the first two weeks building up so you get an idea about how good/bad your week 3/4 targets are.
Changing the order can also have a lot to do with it so it might just be a one time thing. Tough call but that's the way I'd handle it.
TheOak84 said:
I'd worry less about a constant lbs increase per week and just make sure that in weeks 3 and 4 you are breaking previous records. Set weights whereever they need to be for that and go by feel in the first two weeks building up so you get an idea about how good/bad your week 3/4 targets are.
Changing the order can also have a lot to do with it so it might just be a one time thing. Tough call but that's the way I'd handle it.
blut wump
New member
Well, my main goal for this run of the program was to get my deadlift over 400 which I've done. I did 390 for 3x3 last week. I failed at 425 today but got a single at 415. Thanks, yet again, madcow. This program has taken me into the 400 club from never having deadlifted before January.
After I did a single at 405, a guy at the gym came over and told me it wasn't bad for someone with crap technique (his words). He reckons I use too much back and not enough hips to get the bar moving. Easy for him to say being about 6" shorter then I am.
I guess I'll have to go back to reading again but it's really encouraging for getting the numbers even higher. It might be time to hit the Korte and get lots of practice in.
I remembered to sit on the plates. Looks like this program is making a goodly handful of 400+ deadlifters.
After I did a single at 405, a guy at the gym came over and told me it wasn't bad for someone with crap technique (his words). He reckons I use too much back and not enough hips to get the bar moving. Easy for him to say being about 6" shorter then I am.
I guess I'll have to go back to reading again but it's really encouraging for getting the numbers even higher. It might be time to hit the Korte and get lots of practice in.
I remembered to sit on the plates. Looks like this program is making a goodly handful of 400+ deadlifters.
Guinness5.0
New member
Give me a few more months and it'll add a 500 lb DL'er to the listBlut Wump said:
Jim Ouini
New member
Blut Wump said:
@ short guy.Pretty awesome getting to 400 in < 6 months. I agree, I never thought I'd see 4 plates of anything. Now I want it for squatting and 3 plates for bench.
And I'd like to work to a 500 dead, which seems surreal to even be typing it.
Reminds me, the same guy that saw me deadlifting last week asked me for some help again yesterday. Last week he was at 145 or so with pretty uhm 'crap technique'. So I told him a coupla' things (Rippetoe's tips 'n tricks came to mind) and he started repping 225 work sets. I can see this guy hitting 315 real quick and passing 400 in the near future if he does novice 5 x 5. Which kind of made me jealous but it's all good
Blut Wump said:
blut wump
New member
Guinness5.0 said:
I reckon you two should both have it very soon. Jim's 425 for 3x3 indicates a likely 450-460 1RM which is nicely placed at about 10% away. One more run of the program and a 'good' day for lifting and you'll have it. You two still have another week to go, too. Awesome!Jim Ouini said:
siamesedream
New member
Jim Ouini said:
Pretty awesome getting to 400 in < 6 months. I agree, I never thought I'd see 4 plates of anything. Now I want it for squatting and 3 plates for bench.
And I'd like to work to a 500 dead, which seems surreal to even be typing it.
Reminds me, the same guy that saw me deadlifting last week asked me for some help again yesterday. Last week he was at 145 or so with pretty uhm 'crap technique'. So I told him a coupla' things (Rippetoe's tips 'n tricks came to mind) and he started repping 225 work sets. I can see this guy hitting 315 real quick and passing 400 in the near future if he does novice 5 x 5. Which kind of made me jealous but it's all good
Can I have a link to Rippetoe's tips 'n tricks? I just started up the single-factor 5x5 this week and have never squatted, deadlifted, or rowed before it. Naturally, my deadlift is horrible and my top set is only 185 pounds, but I already know I need to up it since that top set was pretty easy yesterday.
P.S. a really simple question for madcow or anyone: Some plans just came up yesterday and I apparently have to be on the road travelling all day Friday, so I'll have to do my "Friday" workout on Saturday. Will this screw everything up including next week's workout? It doesn't seem like it should do much at all since this is only my first week on the program and things are still getting adjusted.
Jim Ouini
New member
siamesedream said:
Well, it's from his book Starting Strength. I think the stickies in the PL forum will serve you very well.
His book is more from a coaching perspective. So for example I asked my friend to reach down and grab the bar. Rippetoe recommends you yell at him 'Butt Down!' 'Chest Up!' at this point, so that's what I did
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Rippetoe's book = www.startingstrength.com, probably not a bad investment to help really learn the lifts. The stickies in the PL forum are excellent for the squat and bench. This is a good deadlift sticky at Meso - I have a feeling Arioch wrote this (who wrote the bench and squat in the PL forum here as well as the snatch description in my TOC): http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showthread.php?t=684
PPS - don't worry about it, just do the workout Saturday.
siamesedream said:
Rippetoe's book = www.startingstrength.com, probably not a bad investment to help really learn the lifts. The stickies in the PL forum are excellent for the squat and bench. This is a good deadlift sticky at Meso - I have a feeling Arioch wrote this (who wrote the bench and squat in the PL forum here as well as the snatch description in my TOC): http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showthread.php?t=684
PPS - don't worry about it, just do the workout Saturday.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
A Synthesis of Differing Methodologies - Workload
So I thought I'd take a few things I've written and post them here. I've written a few things on workload and factors lately so it'll be a new set of links in the TOC. This will probably help people understand what's going on when the see Max-OT, HIT, Higher volume BBing programs, and periodized workouts.
A Synthesis of Differing Methodologies - Workload
So I thought I'd take a few things I've written and post them here. I've written a few things on workload and factors lately so it'll be a new set of links in the TOC. This will probably help people understand what's going on when the see Max-OT, HIT, Higher volume BBing programs, and periodized workouts.
Madcow2 said:
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Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Lifting to Failure - the Muscle and CNS
This is a great piece on Elington Darden's forums. The information you are specifically looking at is NWLifter's. Probably valuable to read the whole discussion in the link - it's not terribly long and is quite illuminating especially for the HIT crew that spends their time reguritating Mentzer's psuedoscience and analogies rather than looking at how the body actually works.
http://www.drdarden.com/readTopic.do?id=394848
Lifting to Failure - the Muscle and CNS
This is a great piece on Elington Darden's forums. The information you are specifically looking at is NWLifter's. Probably valuable to read the whole discussion in the link - it's not terribly long and is quite illuminating especially for the HIT crew that spends their time reguritating Mentzer's psuedoscience and analogies rather than looking at how the body actually works.
http://www.drdarden.com/readTopic.do?id=394848
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
More on Frequency and it Not Being an Absolute
This came from bb.com which eventually banned the Max-OT spouting moron Jrzymuscle but there are some good quoted below. Not that Max-OT is a bad or horrible program per se, but this guy was irritating (his manner and the way he swallowed the entire bullshit gospel and went around spewing it everywhere) and obviously Max-OT is not the final word on physiology or exercise science.
I'm going to actually throw you a Poliquin bone - someone I'm not a massive fan of simply because he dumbs down his stuff so much to make it palatable to BBing. Check out his frequency article here on this very site which you happen to respect so much: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/charles3.htm
Apparently, I'm not the only one who says frequency isn't an absolute. I guess Poliquin is a retard too since just about everything below conflicts with Max-OT. If you take the time to learn you will find that a lot in this world is going to conflict with Max-OT. But if you are happy with it, that's all that matters. Just try to avoid spouting off about stuff which you have no clue about.
More on Frequency and it Not Being an Absolute
This came from bb.com which eventually banned the Max-OT spouting moron Jrzymuscle but there are some good quoted below. Not that Max-OT is a bad or horrible program per se, but this guy was irritating (his manner and the way he swallowed the entire bullshit gospel and went around spewing it everywhere) and obviously Max-OT is not the final word on physiology or exercise science.
Jrzymuscle - Some Banned Retard said:
I'm going to actually throw you a Poliquin bone - someone I'm not a massive fan of simply because he dumbs down his stuff so much to make it palatable to BBing. Check out his frequency article here on this very site which you happen to respect so much: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/charles3.htm
Apparently, I'm not the only one who says frequency isn't an absolute. I guess Poliquin is a retard too since just about everything below conflicts with Max-OT. If you take the time to learn you will find that a lot in this world is going to conflict with Max-OT. But if you are happy with it, that's all that matters. Just try to avoid spouting off about stuff which you have no clue about.
ANDPoliquin said:
ANDPoliquin said:
ANDPoliquin said:
ANDPoliquin said:
ANDPoliquin said:
ANDPoliquin said:
Poliquin said:
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Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Just leaving some journals and links for updating the TOC:
BBIng . Com
forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=499621
david135's: forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=516254
krzyjzn's: forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=525056
TKL's: forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=523032
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5065105&postcount=59
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5071295&postcount=90
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5065752&postcount=3
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5073995&postcount=155
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5078960&postcount=51
Just leaving some journals and links for updating the TOC:
BBIng . Com
forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=499621
david135's: forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=516254
krzyjzn's: forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=525056
TKL's: forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=523032
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5065105&postcount=59
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5071295&postcount=90
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5065752&postcount=3
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5073995&postcount=155
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5078960&postcount=51
can u bench 3x a week, if it was a preference?
do it the same as squat, like..
week 1-4
bench- 5x5
bench - 5x5
bench 1x5
week 5
just twice a week m/f
then week 6-10
add miltary on wed
i was thinking how itd work out.
because i love the first 4 weeks on squats. i know youre still pressing 3x a week, but just adjust it to suit u, even though either way is fine, i like military just the same
do it the same as squat, like..
week 1-4
bench- 5x5
bench - 5x5
bench 1x5
week 5
just twice a week m/f
then week 6-10
add miltary on wed
i was thinking how itd work out.
because i love the first 4 weeks on squats. i know youre still pressing 3x a week, but just adjust it to suit u, even though either way is fine, i like military just the same
Give it a shot. Maybe use a different variant on Wed like close grip, bands/chains or some such but not necessary. I imagine you'll be happy with the results. A lot of times the Wed squat workout will be heavy front squats - this makes it a lot more similar to the M/F Bench and W incline or military layout.
Guinness5.0
New member
Hey madcow,
I'm working on my next run (after a deload- I think I am fatigued from the intensity phase, plus there are a few exercises I need to practice on) and I need some help. I really want to focus on improving my DL and I was thinking of doing a run of 5x5 WITHOUT DL'ing based on an article you linked about a guy improving his dl by focusing on olympic lifting variants, as well as that old Bill Starr article on the same topic.
Here are the items under consideration:
-My sticking point with DL is the initial portion (I imagine that's common in men) and I am trying to incorporate movements which will increase explosive power to initiate the pull. Sound like a decent plan of attack?
-I'd like to use GM's and power cleans but I'm not sure how to set up a traininng cycle that will approximate the workload of the standard 5x5 without the dl included.
-Perhaps I could use the program as originally laid out (cleans and high pulls) but there'd be no GM's in that version. I suppose I don't HAVE to do GM's but I've been itching to do them based on reading advice from folks with big dl #'s. Could these be integrated effectively as assistance work in a higher rep range? Or (as I am hoping) can I just add them on wednesdays in the 5x5/3x3 range with high pulls and end up with a similar net workload as a weds. session w/ deads?
Thanks a million for all you've contributed to this board.
I'm working on my next run (after a deload- I think I am fatigued from the intensity phase, plus there are a few exercises I need to practice on) and I need some help. I really want to focus on improving my DL and I was thinking of doing a run of 5x5 WITHOUT DL'ing based on an article you linked about a guy improving his dl by focusing on olympic lifting variants, as well as that old Bill Starr article on the same topic.
Here are the items under consideration:
-My sticking point with DL is the initial portion (I imagine that's common in men) and I am trying to incorporate movements which will increase explosive power to initiate the pull. Sound like a decent plan of attack?
-I'd like to use GM's and power cleans but I'm not sure how to set up a traininng cycle that will approximate the workload of the standard 5x5 without the dl included.
-Perhaps I could use the program as originally laid out (cleans and high pulls) but there'd be no GM's in that version. I suppose I don't HAVE to do GM's but I've been itching to do them based on reading advice from folks with big dl #'s. Could these be integrated effectively as assistance work in a higher rep range? Or (as I am hoping) can I just add them on wednesdays in the 5x5/3x3 range with high pulls and end up with a similar net workload as a weds. session w/ deads?
Thanks a million for all you've contributed to this board.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
What I'd probably do is break the thing down. You'd probably want 4 days to distribute the pulling. Keep the squat base but maybe consider the Wed squat as flexible. Keep 2 bench and a pushpress session or some such. Drop the rows for now.
Now you have room for Starr's stuff. If I remember right he had: cleans, snatches, clean and snatch grip high pulls, good mornings, and powershrugs. There was a whole writeup of this in PowerliftingUSA years ago with a day by day program I believe. Well, that's lost forever to me. Anyway the real keys are the hi pulls and good mornings. The cleans and snatches were mainly done to warm up. Clean/snatch pulls are also viable (i.e. you don't pull them as high). If you are weak at the bottom typically people will pull deads when standing on plates, use smaller diameter plates (i.e. 35s not 45s), widen the grip to a snatch or near snatch position.
The main issue here is that you are going to be pulling a lot and for a lot of volume. Starr writes out these workouts he used but you have to remember, this was a really proficient olympic lifter who pulled for volume all the time. SuperRice is doing the 3x3 now and from what I gather he's found his lower back pretty damn fatigued from all the pulling and squatting (granted he's deadlifting but pulling is pulling and there's a lot here too). A second issue is that you want to be familiar with the exercises first. Don't start your foray into goodmornings day 1 of the program. You might need some time to acclimate to these lifts first. Maybe that's a little mesocycle of it's own.
So anyway, assume you'll need 4 days to get in the exercises - maybe they fit in 3. Don't worry too much about the power clean and power snatch as these were mainly to warm up for the highpulls. You can also sub clean pulls for high pulls. These are the important ones along with the good morning. Using a snatch grip will let you pull from a lower position but that's the only deadlift specific benefit. You might want some shrugging in there too, do it from the high hang, you can even do it from pins should you choose if you don't want to strain to support it or lower it with heavy weight to preserve the back. You'll probably want two sessions of good mornings if you can tolerate that - maybe that means the Wed squat equivalent goes or is minimized or becomes speed deadlifts off plates or with a snatch grip (maybe snatch pulls). Anyway, I'm throwing out ideas for a loading protocol that you might want to use. Reread the Starr article and the one that other guy used as you put it together.
So anyway, you can figure out what you need to do to acclimate to the program and set up a decent volume for loading. The real question is going to be how you tolerate all the pulling - maybe the full blown program is something to back burner now and do sort of a semi 4 week mesocycle just to see how it goes and see if you have a back left. Once you have an idea about how well you tolerate this you can figure out what kind of loading and deloading protocols you need. You could also do it in two waves of loading with a mild deload in between and a heavier one towards the end. Maybe switch up exercises part way too (early focus on depth and floor work, later on heavy pulls).
Anyway, lot of ideas and some cautionary points for you to consider but that should get you going and thinking in the right direction.
Guinness5.0 said:
What I'd probably do is break the thing down. You'd probably want 4 days to distribute the pulling. Keep the squat base but maybe consider the Wed squat as flexible. Keep 2 bench and a pushpress session or some such. Drop the rows for now.
Now you have room for Starr's stuff. If I remember right he had: cleans, snatches, clean and snatch grip high pulls, good mornings, and powershrugs. There was a whole writeup of this in PowerliftingUSA years ago with a day by day program I believe. Well, that's lost forever to me. Anyway the real keys are the hi pulls and good mornings. The cleans and snatches were mainly done to warm up. Clean/snatch pulls are also viable (i.e. you don't pull them as high). If you are weak at the bottom typically people will pull deads when standing on plates, use smaller diameter plates (i.e. 35s not 45s), widen the grip to a snatch or near snatch position.
The main issue here is that you are going to be pulling a lot and for a lot of volume. Starr writes out these workouts he used but you have to remember, this was a really proficient olympic lifter who pulled for volume all the time. SuperRice is doing the 3x3 now and from what I gather he's found his lower back pretty damn fatigued from all the pulling and squatting (granted he's deadlifting but pulling is pulling and there's a lot here too). A second issue is that you want to be familiar with the exercises first. Don't start your foray into goodmornings day 1 of the program. You might need some time to acclimate to these lifts first. Maybe that's a little mesocycle of it's own.
So anyway, assume you'll need 4 days to get in the exercises - maybe they fit in 3. Don't worry too much about the power clean and power snatch as these were mainly to warm up for the highpulls. You can also sub clean pulls for high pulls. These are the important ones along with the good morning. Using a snatch grip will let you pull from a lower position but that's the only deadlift specific benefit. You might want some shrugging in there too, do it from the high hang, you can even do it from pins should you choose if you don't want to strain to support it or lower it with heavy weight to preserve the back. You'll probably want two sessions of good mornings if you can tolerate that - maybe that means the Wed squat equivalent goes or is minimized or becomes speed deadlifts off plates or with a snatch grip (maybe snatch pulls). Anyway, I'm throwing out ideas for a loading protocol that you might want to use. Reread the Starr article and the one that other guy used as you put it together.
So anyway, you can figure out what you need to do to acclimate to the program and set up a decent volume for loading. The real question is going to be how you tolerate all the pulling - maybe the full blown program is something to back burner now and do sort of a semi 4 week mesocycle just to see how it goes and see if you have a back left. Once you have an idea about how well you tolerate this you can figure out what kind of loading and deloading protocols you need. You could also do it in two waves of loading with a mild deload in between and a heavier one towards the end. Maybe switch up exercises part way too (early focus on depth and floor work, later on heavy pulls).
Anyway, lot of ideas and some cautionary points for you to consider but that should get you going and thinking in the right direction.
Guinness5.0
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Some girl- "Hey Guinness, what are you going to do today?"
Me- "Low snatch pulls."
Seriously though, I like the speed dl's off plates for a weds. squat sub. This would not be an all-out movement right? Just something to keep the volume up for loading purposes and help w/ a bit of explosive power?
Also, I'm guessing gm's and clean pulls on the same day would not be a good idea. Correct?
For my 4 week acclimiation mini-cycle, how's this look:
M-Squat warmup to 3x5 (keeping it rather light, but not easy), Bench 3x5, GM 5x5 (light w/ emphasis on form, but with the goal of moving the weight up during the four weeks), abs
W- low snatch pull, standing military, clean-grip high pull, pullups
F- repeat monday
OR:
M-same
T- same as wed. above
Th- repeat monday
F- repeat tues
I was thinking this would get me some practice and give me a better feel for my pulling tolerance (and just maybe increase it?) and based on that run I could plan out a longer cycle.
Also (a bit off topic)- which do you think has better carryover to bench: push press or strict military? I've been doing 'em strict and just wondered if push would be better.
Thanks. I like the idea of working out 4 days/week, and I really like this scenario:Madcow2 said:
Some girl- "Hey Guinness, what are you going to do today?"
Me- "Low snatch pulls."
Seriously though, I like the speed dl's off plates for a weds. squat sub. This would not be an all-out movement right? Just something to keep the volume up for loading purposes and help w/ a bit of explosive power?
Also, I'm guessing gm's and clean pulls on the same day would not be a good idea. Correct?
For my 4 week acclimiation mini-cycle, how's this look:
M-Squat warmup to 3x5 (keeping it rather light, but not easy), Bench 3x5, GM 5x5 (light w/ emphasis on form, but with the goal of moving the weight up during the four weeks), abs
W- low snatch pull, standing military, clean-grip high pull, pullups
F- repeat monday
OR:
M-same
T- same as wed. above
Th- repeat monday
F- repeat tues
I was thinking this would get me some practice and give me a better feel for my pulling tolerance (and just maybe increase it?) and based on that run I could plan out a longer cycle.
Also (a bit off topic)- which do you think has better carryover to bench: push press or strict military? I've been doing 'em strict and just wondered if push would be better.
I have been doing Bill Starr's beginner's 5 x 5 naturally for about 2 - 3 months now and was wondering if you think I should lower the intensity on DLs for a week or substitute them with another exercise?
I've been lifting seriously for 6-7 months now. I began at 115 lbs
, and am now at 145 lbs while still below 10% BF.
My pulling weight is still increasing each workout and at the moment I am pulling 215 for 5 reps in my final set.
So, should I lower the intensity this week or wait until the weight stalls?
P.S. There are 2.2 lbs in 1 kg, correct? We're on the metric system here so I'm not sure if the weights I listed were correct... Just thought I'd make it easier for you yanks.
I've been lifting seriously for 6-7 months now. I began at 115 lbs
, and am now at 145 lbs while still below 10% BF.My pulling weight is still increasing each workout and at the moment I am pulling 215 for 5 reps in my final set.
So, should I lower the intensity this week or wait until the weight stalls?
P.S. There are 2.2 lbs in 1 kg, correct? We're on the metric system here so I'm not sure if the weights I listed were correct... Just thought I'd make it easier for you yanks.
blut wump
New member
Impressive gains.
There are 2.2046226lbs in a Kilo which is very close to 2.2lbs but the Americans add an extra pound for each 20Kg. It's not unreasonable, since the 20Kg plates say 45lbs on them, but it makes the calculation a bit wilder.
As such:
bar + 1 plate each end = 60Kg = 132lbs + 3 = 135
bar + 2 plates each end = 100Kg = 220lbs + 5 = 225
bar + 3 plates each end = 140Kg = 308lbs + 7 = 315
... just keep adding 90.
Of course, on bodyweight, rather than lifting weights, use the 2.2 without the 1lb fudge.
Edit: It's also possible that the weights actually are 45lbs rather than 20Kg in which case they are right and the rest of the world is wrong. It wouldn't be the first time. I keep meaning to check a plate to see what it weighs.
There are 2.2046226lbs in a Kilo which is very close to 2.2lbs but the Americans add an extra pound for each 20Kg. It's not unreasonable, since the 20Kg plates say 45lbs on them, but it makes the calculation a bit wilder.
As such:
bar + 1 plate each end = 60Kg = 132lbs + 3 = 135
bar + 2 plates each end = 100Kg = 220lbs + 5 = 225
bar + 3 plates each end = 140Kg = 308lbs + 7 = 315
... just keep adding 90.
Of course, on bodyweight, rather than lifting weights, use the 2.2 without the 1lb fudge.
Edit: It's also possible that the weights actually are 45lbs rather than 20Kg in which case they are right and the rest of the world is wrong. It wouldn't be the first time. I keep meaning to check a plate to see what it weighs.
If everything is going up just keep at it. You didn't list any possible reasons you were feeling this way so I'm not sure I have all the info|D_J^B_J| said:I have been doing Bill Starr's beginner's 5 x 5 naturally for about 2 - 3 months now and was wondering if you think I should lower the intensity on DLs for a week or substitute them with another exercise?
I've been lifting seriously for 6-7 months now. I began at 115 lbs
My pulling weight is still increasing each workout and at the moment I am pulling 215 for 5 reps in my final set.
So, should I lower the intensity this week or wait until the weight stalls?
P.S. There are 2.2 lbs in 1 kg, correct? We're on the metric system here so I'm not sure if the weights I listed were correct... Just thought I'd make it easier for you yanks.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Speed deads tend to be done fairly lightly, in either case you regularly pull deads on Wed for 5x5 so this isn't solely a good reason to sub out the squat unless there are most exercises to include. The squat is very important to increasing the DL especially if you have problems at the bottom.
It can be good or bad. Probably not horrible though. It really depends upon you and the conditoining of your back.
I don't think you'd have to cut your squat volume as much as you think for this with the amount of pulling you have in there although you might want to do 5x5 and 1x5 on the reverse of the goodmorning. Or if GMs are 5x5 on two days, you can do them heavier on the 1x5 squat days. The squat is important to DL power and you don't have so much pulling. If you saw Starr's layout from that issue of PLUSA, you'd probably choke.
I also like your 4 day layout. In addition to GMs, you need to be pulling from the floor fairly often and 1x per week just doesn't give you the frequency or workload you need.
For most, push press although obviously working them both at different times of the year depending upon your needs might be the best solution.
Guinness5.0 said:
Speed deads tend to be done fairly lightly, in either case you regularly pull deads on Wed for 5x5 so this isn't solely a good reason to sub out the squat unless there are most exercises to include. The squat is very important to increasing the DL especially if you have problems at the bottom.
Guinness5.0 said:
It can be good or bad. Probably not horrible though. It really depends upon you and the conditoining of your back.
Guinness5.0 said:
I don't think you'd have to cut your squat volume as much as you think for this with the amount of pulling you have in there although you might want to do 5x5 and 1x5 on the reverse of the goodmorning. Or if GMs are 5x5 on two days, you can do them heavier on the 1x5 squat days. The squat is important to DL power and you don't have so much pulling. If you saw Starr's layout from that issue of PLUSA, you'd probably choke.
I also like your 4 day layout. In addition to GMs, you need to be pulling from the floor fairly often and 1x per week just doesn't give you the frequency or workload you need.
Guinness5.0 said:
For most, push press although obviously working them both at different times of the year depending upon your needs might be the best solution.
Guinness5.0
New member
Thanks bro. This should be a fun month- lots of new exercises to learn.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Another option is to check out www.usaweightlifting.org and see if there's a coach in your area. Very cheap (sometimes free) and friendly.
FYI - if you don't know how to do the OL's that book Starting Strength has a pretty massive writeup on the clean. I'm not sure whether you ordered it or whether it was Jim Ouini - thinking it was him. Dreschler's Weightlifting Encyclopedia also has a ton of technique info on both the clean and snatch (there is a write up of the snatch in my TOC also).Guinness5.0 said:
Another option is to check out www.usaweightlifting.org and see if there's a coach in your area. Very cheap (sometimes free) and friendly.
Guinness5.0
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Also, which would be better to do along w/ the low snatch pulls: power cleans or high pulls? Does it matter much or will they have a similar effect?
Oh and I tried to order the book at work but the security settings in place wouldn't let me. I'll order it today.
Actually I have an EXCELLENT resource for the OLY lifts at my gym- there is a married couple that competes in lots of OLY meets and are extremely helpful (I raised my dl PR by 60 pounds the first time she helped me, and he's a physical therapist) so I'll be sure to have them watch me for a while.Madcow2 said:
Also, which would be better to do along w/ the low snatch pulls: power cleans or high pulls? Does it matter much or will they have a similar effect?
Oh and I tried to order the book at work but the security settings in place wouldn't let me. I'll order it today.
Well, high pulls can be done heavier and low clean pulls heavier than that. Generally 100-110% of your best clean. The power clean is going to be more difficult to learn and you won't be using as heavy a weight. Technique should be the same though and to be honest, doing a lot of heavy high pulls and training bad technique makes it harder to fix down the road. If these people would be kind enough to help you learn the lifts one or two days (pay them if you need to) it would really save you some pain later on. These are not simple to learn on your own, actually, learning on your own is the best way to develop some horid technical flaws and greatly limiting the weight you can handle. If they teach you the full clean that will be sufficient - generally the power version will stem from there (learning power first is a not so wise move, I'm a prime example of this) as will the high and low pull variants. Learning to snatch would also be a massive bonus. Good instruction is worth paying for if you have the means, believe me - a relatively small investment will pay massive dividends for years in your training.
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