Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

[siamesedream]

I'm a novice lifter who's been doing freeweights for a little more than 2 months and love the sound of this program. I've decided to take up Animalmass' version of the program but I'm going to be doing it single-factor instead of dual-factor. In Animalmass' description, he said that if you're only going to do it as a single-factor program, be more conservative with the weights. So, my question is, at what intensity should I be lifting at? I just got a friend to sign up at the gym so I now have a workout partner for the first time, and we're gonna spend tomorrow and Friday determining maxes on deadlifts, rows, squats, and benches so we'll have an idea of where we are when we start the program together next Monday.

Anyways, on all of the lifts, should I choose a weight where it is extremely hard to push it up for 5 sets of 5, or a weight that I can do for 5 sets of 5 with a little pushing of myself or exactly what should it be? On benching, for example, I've been doing 3 sets of 10,7,5 or 6 with an unbelievably wimpy 155 pounds which, nonetheless, the most I am able to do for 10,7, and 5 or 6 (at least without a spotter). Therefore, does 155 sound like a good weight to do 5 sets of 5 with? Then, if I am able to do 5 sets of 5, I increase the weights by 5 or 10 pounds as stated, but if I am only able to do 3 or 4 sets of 5 with the heavier weight, and my last set is only for 2 or 3 reps, do I take some weight off and get a last set of 5 in since "you MUST stick to the required volume and frequency"? Also, say I did 5 sets of 5 on all exercises on Monday, do I bump up the weight used on Wednesday and Friday or I do wait for the next week to increase my weights?

Also, why is it that, on Friday, squats are the only thing you actually "work up to a max set of 5" with (in animalmass' description, which is the one I think I'll be doing)?

Lastly, does cardio have a place within this program? I'd like to be able to do cardio 5 times a week.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Topside]

Well it's my second run at the program and im trying 2 weeks of loading followed by 1 week of deloading. Running that cycle 2 or 3 times then intensity, so this is my 4th week of this and i've ramped up slowly, but maybe it was just extremely hot in my basement, i usually do all 5 sets but the first three just kicked my ass so i stopped and continued onto presses and pull ups

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

I'm a novice lifter who's been doing freeweights for a little more than 2 months and love the sound of this program. I've decided to take up Animalmass' version of the program but I'm going to be doing it single-factor instead of dual-factor. In Animalmass' description, he said that if you're only going to do it as a single-factor program, be more conservative with the weights. So, my question is, at what intensity should I be lifting at? I just got a friend to sign up at the gym so I now have a workout partner for the first time, and we're gonna spend tomorrow and Friday determining maxes on deadlifts, rows, squats, and benches so we'll have an idea of where we are when we start the program together next Monday.

Anyways, on all of the lifts, should I choose a weight where it is extremely hard to push it up for 5 sets of 5, or a weight that I can do for 5 sets of 5 with a little pushing of myself or exactly what should it be? On benching, for example, I've been doing 3 sets of 10,7,5 or 6 with an unbelievably wimpy 155 pounds which, nonetheless, the most I am able to do for 10,7, and 5 or 6 (at least without a spotter). Therefore, does 155 sound like a good weight to do 5 sets of 5 with? Then, if I am able to do 5 sets of 5, I increase the weights by 5 or 10 pounds as stated, but if I am only able to do 3 or 4 sets of 5 with the heavier weight, and my last set is only for 2 or 3 reps, do I take some weight off and get a last set of 5 in since "you MUST stick to the required volume and frequency"? Also, say I did 5 sets of 5 on all exercises on Monday, do I bump up the weight used on Wednesday and Friday or I do wait for the next week to increase my weights?

Also, why is it that, on Friday, squats are the only thing you actually "work up to a max set of 5" with (in animalmass' description, which is the one I think I'll be doing)?

Lastly, does cardio have a place within this program? I'd like to be able to do cardio 5 times a week.

Thanks in advance!

First, all the versions of this program are the same one, they are just written up differently or were for different people. The most comprehensive of them all is here: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4764723&postcount=381

Second, if you've only been training with free weights for 2 months no matter which version you choose, they are too much volume, and inappropriate. There is a single factor novice version in the table of contents. You'll notice that the volume is a lot lower. I also linked a volume comparison so you get the idea:

Novice/Non-periodized Version: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4497774&postcount=15
Loads Explained and Novice vs. Periodized Calculations: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5017744&postcount=686
This is the squatting progression Glen Pendlay and Mark Rippetoe use for new lifters from 1-2 years until periodization becomes important: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4658227&postcount=235
Rippetoe's new book that covers programing and the lifts (probably the best money you'll spend): www.startingstrength.com
Be on the lookout for Matt Reynold's upcoming interview with Ripptoe at www.readthecore.com

 

[siamesedream]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

First, all the versions of this program are the same one, they are just written up differently or were for different people. The most comprehensive of them all is here: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4764723&postcount=381

Second, if you've only been training with free weights for 2 months no matter which version you choose, they are too much volume, and inappropriate. There is a single factor novice version in the table of contents. You'll notice that the volume is a lot lower. I also linked a volume comparison so you get the idea:

Novice/Non-periodized Version: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4497774&postcount=15
Loads Explained and Novice vs. Periodized Calculations: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5017744&postcount=686
This is the squatting progression Glen Pendlay and Mark Rippetoe use for new lifters from 1-2 years until periodization becomes important: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4658227&postcount=235
Rippetoe's new book that covers programing and the lifts (probably the best money you'll spend): www.startingstrength.com
Be on the lookout for Matt Reynold's upcoming interview with Ripptoe at www.readthecore.com

Well, the reason why I wanted to do animalmass' is because, even though I'm an extreme novice in every sense, my previous workout schedule was extremely high-volume high-intensity and was 6 days a week and incredibly grueling. The novice version in there seems like it's not enough to help me tax my body as much as I want to since I'm 220 pounds and probably have a lean body mass of around 160-170 and need to lose tons of fat.



P.S. in no way in any of my posts am I saying "I'm going to do this" or "I'm going to do that". I'm simply stating my mindset and approach to bodybuilding hoping to have it corrected since I know it's probably very flawed. I recognize my place among all you awesome bodybuilders and lifters here and am IN NO WAY trying to "tell" you what I'm going to be doing. Like I said though, what my mind is telling me right now is that the novice version seems a bit too easy compared to what I've been doing for the last 2+ months which is the reason why a single-factor higher-volume version caught my eye.

 

[Madcow2]

I don't know what version you are talking about of the 5x5 but all the periodized writeups are the same program so it's not like Animalmass' can be a better or worse fit or more or less volume. It's like saying I prefer black rather than black because I feel black is a better fit due to it being more black. Maybe give me a link so I understand.

 

[seizer]

hey mc, if I want to throw in those power shrugs into my new 5x5 routine, should I pull out the military press or keep it in? Or should I not even bother at all? Its funny because my priorities this time around is building my traps and shoulders so it would seem stupid to replace the shrugs for the mp. And I certainly cant get rid of the dl's. Is the wednesday squat absolutley necessary even if I still have 4 solid compound lifts?

 

[Madcow2]

hey mc, if I want to throw in those power shrugs into my new 5x5 routine, should I pull out the military press or keep it in? Or should I not even bother at all? Its funny because my priorities this time around is building my traps and shoulders so it would seem stupid to replace the shrugs for the mp. And I certainly cant get rid of the dl's. Is the wednesday squat absolutley necessary even if I still have 4 solid compound lifts?

Keep the overhead work. You can add the shrugs as assistance work on M/F or both. Something like 3 sets for reps would work. Keep the reps higher and train it lighter if doing it 2x per week - this is probably the best solution if the lift is new for you and you haven't put in some time with it. If you have spent time training the lift and want to make it a serious commitment replace bent rows with the shrugs done from just above the knee (making it into more of a very heavy clean pull with longer ROM and more fully body emphasis).

 

[siamesedream]

I don't know what version you are talking about of the 5x5 but all the periodized writeups are the same program so it's not like Animalmass' can be a better or worse fit or more or less volume. It's like saying I prefer black rather than black because I feel black is a better fit due to it being more black. Maybe give me a link so I understand.

Alright. This beginner link right here http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4497774&postcount=15


is different from this link right here
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4497628&postcount=10


only in the sense that the first link wants you to work up to a full-out set of 5 while the 2nd link wants you to find the heaviest weight that you can do for a full-out set of 5 and keep the same weight throughout all 5 sets. Again, the first link wants you to go up in weight throughout all 5 sets while the 2nd wants you to keep the weight the same and bump it up as soon as you can do all 5 sets. What I'm saying is I'd rather do a set weight for 5 sets because it's higher intensity and a lower intensity workout would cause my fat-loss progress to slow down.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Alright. This beginner link right here http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4497774&postcount=15


is different from this link right here
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4497628&postcount=10

Okay - the novice version is different - I thought you were talking about differences between the 3 linked periodized descriptions in the table of contents (one of which is Animalmass', the others being mine and JS182's - but all the same program).

The bottom line is that you simply won't be able to tolerate that kind of load where you are squatting for 5x5 3 times per week with similar applications along the other exercises. As a matter of fact, very few can tolerate that indefinitely (maybe some very elite lifters) which is why it works for periodization and pushes experienced lifters into overreaching (and overtraining if they didn't periodize - myself included). You need less volume so that you can train linearly, a la single factor, and you'll actually get great results from this with a lot less hassle and likelyhood of screwing things up.

It's not like the novice version is for first time weight trainers. Starr used this program for college level athletes and football players who have years of training under their belts. You just don't have the tolerance or work capacity accrued to tolerate that much load (it's over 100% more) and you'll wind up with inferior results - maybe drastically.

What I'm saying is I'd rather do a set weight for 5 sets because it's higher intensity and a lower intensity workout would cause my fat-loss progress to slow down.

You're mixing things up. First - I like to use the real definition of intensity as a quantifiable variable representing a given % of a person's 1RM that a lift is being performed at. Second, what you are terming intensity is just a matter of effort required. Well, it's so much effort and the volume and frequency are so high that you can't sustain the load for long and it won't work for you. Second, this extra anaerobic effort put forth only has a minimal impact on calories while training and that is the only tie-in to fat loss from the workout itself. The other tie-in would be that muscle gained would increase your caloric requirement and use up calories currently going to excess fat - that's nice but you had better not be lean and trying to pull this off because you won't make gains. All that said, you'll make better gains from the novice program so that wipes any advantage. So just forget about one option being better for fat loss than the other - you choose the weight program that is appropriate and it will provide far better benefits.

And, finally of course - hopefully if you are lean you aren't trying to add muscle and lose fat at the same time.

 

[seizer]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Keep the overhead work. You can add the shrugs as assistance work on M/F or both. Something like 3 sets for reps would work. Keep the reps higher and train it lighter if doing it 2x per week - this is probably the best solution if the lift is new for you and you haven't put in some time with it. If you have spent time training the lift and want to make it a serious commitment replace bent rows with the shrugs done from just above the knee (making it into more of a very heavy clean pull with longer ROM and more fully body emphasis).

thanks man. I think I'm gonna try to and throw them in on monday and friday with a lighter weight as recommended.