Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

[cwpick]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

1) They don't know
2) Their best (the pros) don't use it and don't know - they succeed in spite of their training, not because of it (look at the late 1980s machine dominated squat and pull avoiding programs - they still looked fabulous)
3) The magazines have never published an article explaining any of this - because they don't know. And what they do publish on the subject of training is almost an embarrasment.
4) BBers have no performance criteria other than hypertrophy and are unrestricted with drug usage and dosage. You can keep taking more until whatever you are doing works. Cows don't touch a weight and add plenty of muscle tissue with enough juice and food, if you are willing to watch your diet a bit and do some type of stimulative training you can take enough juice until it works well and come out fairly good. Basically, they can compensate for suboptimal training which is why BBers typically know a lot about nutrition and drugs yet their knowledge of training is very very poor in comparision.

Not much else I can venture but that's the crux I think.

If one was to grow with a good training program then their would be less of a need for the magazines and their supplements. Keep the consumer dumb to make a profit.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

If one was to grow with a good training program then their would be less of a need for the magazines and their supplements. Keep the consumer dumb to make a profit.

I also see it as less kids turning to drugs just because they can't get reasonably attainable results and a lot more happy, fullfilled, and empowered people in the gym. Downside is that the racks will become very crowded.

EDIT - I actually just wrote a response to this question on another board. I'll copy it over later and bold it like the other. If you're interested it's worth reading.

 

[Shepherd4]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

As an aside, I don't know how serious you are about OL but generally those that lift big, perform the lifts a lot. Their frequency is much higher than 2-3 workouts per week. ...

Granted, these are pretty seasoned lifters who are heavily committed to the sport and have time but this will give you a good idea on the type of frequency used in the classic lifts. http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/index.php?showtopic=857

I've been O-lifting (with occasional "demands of life" breaks) for about 6 years now, went to the American Open in 2000, and have PRs of 95kg/125kg (for whatever that's worth!). Trained with Artie Dreschler for a few years while living in NYC. So, yeah, I guess I'm about as serious about O-lifting as you can be without dedicating your life to it.

Re your other observations, yes and no. I think your later comment re Glenn's lifters (some of whom I've met at competitions) answers the question. I'm a 34 yo bankruptcy attorney with a wife, 3 children (16 months to 15 years) and a pretty demanding work schedule. 3 days a week (and occasionally 4) is about as good as it gets. Glenn's lifters are much younger, have slowly BUILT UP TO their current work load, and have made the conscious decision (and attending sacrifices) to dedicate themselves wholly to O-lifting.

That said, plenty of lifters do quite well (including guys like Tommy Kono and Norb Schemansky, back in the day) on 3-4 days a week. As the great Joe Mills said, "3 times a week is ideal, twice is better than four, once is better than 5."

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

I've been O-lifting (with occasional "demands of life" breaks) for about 6 years now, went to the American Open in 2000, and have PRs of 95kg/125kg (for whatever that's worth!). Trained with Artie Dreschler for a few years while living in NYC. So, yeah, I guess I'm about as serious about O-lifting as you can be without dedicating your life to it.

Wow. Very impressive. I've never met Dreschler but I constantly recommend his book/Ency to those interested in the lifts, especially if they can't or won't locate a local coach. I probably thumb through it at least once a week myself just reading at random. You have far better sources than myself for training info. I'm flattered you even found what's in this thread useful to you.

Re your other observations, yes and no. I think your later comment re Glenn's lifters (some of whom I've met at competitions) answers the question. I'm a 34 yo bankruptcy attorney with a wife, 3 children (16 months to 15 years) and a pretty demanding work schedule. 3 days a week (and occasionally 4) is about as good as it gets. Glenn's lifters are much younger, have slowly BUILT UP TO their current work load, and have made the conscious decision (and attending sacrifices) to dedicate themselves wholly to O-lifting.

I'm in the same boat minus 2 kids (we have an 18 month old). Over 30 and very time demanding industry. Believe me, if there's anyone who doesn't take his own training seriously and hasn't for a while it's me. Sadly just as I was doing better a year or so ago I managed 3 back to back injuries that sidelined me for over a year (torn labrum, upper back, and ankle - all random stuff). I'm still working back up but I could press over 135 or walk without a boot and cruches let alone squat for a big chunk of time.

That said, plenty of lifters do quite well (including guys like Tommy Kono and Norb Schemansky, back in the day) on 3-4 days a week. As the great Joe Mills said, "3 times a week is ideal, twice is better than four, once is better than 5."

I know. From a strictly 'optimal' standpoint (assuming no time or life constraints), I prefer higher frequency and I think there's a fair amount of at least anecdotal evidence given the number of top competitors using such programs that it's likely to be supperior at least to some marginal but significant degree providing one has that kind of capacity and tolerance. But like you said - very very few aren't constrained in this manner and how much is this incremental improvement worth to you? I'm sure if you were a world level competitor in your prime without family or time constraints you'd be hesitant to leave anything on the table. For real world, supporting a family and mantaining a quality balanced life- I certainly don't manage more than 3 or at the most 4 training sessions per week (sometimes long gaps for layoffs due to work) although I've experimented with much higher frequency in the past when I was younger (with barely marginal success if any, I never built my work capacity up enough to really make use of it outside of a lot of light technique work).

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

So why in your opinion does the BBing world not change their way of training? I myself have tried to spread the word and have sent your post to the masses trying to at least get them thinking of other possibilities in their training.

FYI - I updated the main post above since it was still 'editable'.

 

[Shepherd4]

Not that impressive in the grand scheme of things - I just wanted to make sure you didn't get the wrong impression about my level of training/goals/etc. Anyway, I'm very much enjoying reading the posts on this and other threads, and look forward to blocking out the 9 weeks (probably once Highland Games season is over!) to give it a proper go.

In the meantime, I'll report periodically on my effort to apply some of the 5x5 principles to what I'm doing.

mpc

 

[FreakMonster]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Can this program be done with hack squats and leg presses?

 

[Tom Treutlein]

No. Squats are the prime driver of this entire program. They're the foundation. Don't butcher it. Read the table of contents and you'll find all the information you need, especially pertaining to exchanging exercises. That's a big no-no.

 

[Santa_Claus]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Hey madcow, I just want to make sure I understand the program correctly.


My maxes for 5 sets of 5 reps are...
Bench:210lbs
Squat:200lbs
Deadlift:230lbs
Bentover:115lbs

I just did day 1 of week 1 and it went like this... (I started at 75% of my 5set/5rep maxes)

1x5 Bench: sets 1..2..3..4..5 140lbs..150lbs...160...170...175
5x5 Squat: sets 1..2..3..4..5 150x5
1x5 Bent over row: sets 1..2..3..4..5 60lbs-70lbs-80lbs-90lbs-100lbs

Is that okay?
Here are my questions
#1. Since I performed all my sets/reps, I will add 5-10lbs( on week 2) to the lifts mentioned above. Correct?

#2. I do this until week 5. On week 5 I train with the same weights that I used on week 4 but I train with a 3x3 and 1x3 set/rep scheme. Correct?

#3 Now this is the part where I get confused...on the intensity phase...
do I... Bump the weights as much as I need to in order to train with my established 5set/5 rep maxes on week 8 and then beat those established 5set/rep maxes with 5~10+ lbs on week 9?


I've read and re-read your posts but I just can't seem to grasp the program entirely. Answering those questions will go a long way for me.

Thanks
Santa

 

[blut wump]

Your current maxes are what you are aiming for in week3 for the 5x5 exercises. Your top sets of the 1x5 pyramids should be higher than your 5x5 weights. In week4 you try to out-do these to set new maxes in everything, 5x5 and 1x5.

In week5 you take your 5x5 weights from week4 and do them for 3x3 and, if you are doing the 3x per week protocol, your 1x5 weights and use them as the top set of a 3x3 pyramid, thinking of them as 1x3 weights.

In weeks 6 through 9 you just keep incrementing the weights week on week aiming to set new records in both week8 and week9. These will be 3x3 records (and 1x3 records, if doing the 3x per week system) and will be a lot higher than your 5x5 current maxes. When you do the program again, your ultimate 3x3 and 1x3 weights from this run's week9 get plugged into your week8, or slightly more if you are able, and then you try to go even higher in week9.

Your start weights look sensible but you'll be incrementing by more than 5-10 pounds to be achieving your current maxes in week3. 5-10 pound increments are typical in the intensity phase but it's a very personal thing. Just try to be doing all you can in each of the final two weeks.