Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

[Tom Treutlein]

You know what I always wondered? If you make strength gains without size gains, due to lack of calories, do you miss out on the hypertrophy associated with those gains? By this I mean, if you move your squat up 50 lbs., 35 lbs. on bench, 95 lbs. on the deadlift, and 30 lbs. on the row, yet you don't eat enough, you won't gain any weight, and very little, if any, size. Correct?

Now, if you do all that, then after making those jumps, you begin to eat above your maintenance level (for arguements sake, you knew EXACTLY what it was, and ate about 800 calories in excess) - what would happen? One who ate all along with those gains would have added some size from it, no doubt. So what of the guy who comes in and eats LATER? Did his body just skimp out, and will he miss out on the size gains, or will he explode in a shorter amount of time with some new mass to accompany his much added strength?

I've always wanted to ask that, and couldn't word it right. Hopefully this will get some attention soon, so I can have an answer. It's been on my mind all morning!

 

[harhar]

Things start to get complicated when you count in micronutrients and the thermic effect of food. Protein requires lots of energy to digest and absorb. And certain micronutrients aid in metabolism and building muscle.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

I believe you mean macronutrients. Yes, you're right though - it gets complicated when you take it to that level. Not so much that it's incomprehensible, but it's just plain annoying to try and perfect it all.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

You know what I always wondered? If you make strength gains without size gains, due to lack of calories, do you miss out on the hypertrophy associated with those gains? By this I mean, if you move your squat up 50 lbs., 35 lbs. on bench, 95 lbs. on the deadlift, and 30 lbs. on the row, yet you don't eat enough, you won't gain any weight, and very little, if any, size. Correct?

Now, if you do all that, then after making those jumps, you begin to eat above your maintenance level (for arguements sake, you knew EXACTLY what it was, and ate about 800 calories in excess) - what would happen? One who ate all along with those gains would have added some size from it, no doubt. So what of the guy who comes in and eats LATER? Did his body just skimp out, and will he miss out on the size gains, or will he explode in a shorter amount of time with some new mass to accompany his much added strength?

I've always wanted to ask that, and couldn't word it right. Hopefully this will get some attention soon, so I can have an answer. It's been on my mind all morning!

It teachers your body that you don't want muscular gains and once it learns that, you end up staying at your current weight forever. Couldn't resist.

Actually, it's a good question. I'm not entirely sure of the exact answer or the degree of the effect. There are certainly a lot of lifters who restrict calories to keep their weight down over long periods while increasing strength only to balloon up in a big way once they relax their rigidity a bit. As to whether it would put them at the exact point that they'd be at if they had always maximized hypertrophy, I can't say. It may depend on whether we are talking a single training cycle or two, a year, or multiple years. To be honest, I've never heard much on it and one answer might be that no one really knows enough about it to have thrown out a comprehensive theory that allows for the different time periods. If you were able to get the info or even someone's opinion on it, it would certainly be helpful. Why not post in fortifiediron.com's advanced theory section or see if Glenn or Gavin has any idea at http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/ - they might at least point you in the right direction.

 

[Santa_Claus]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Starting week 4 of the program

Here is what I noticed so far...


-Im stronger
-I have way more fun doing big compound movements than doing little isolation work
-I don't weight as much (~3 lbs less)
-I've lost a noticable amount of muscle mass (especially in the chest area)
-Im not as buff as I was before.

My body may not be as asthetically pleasing as before but im stronger. I can live with that because I think doing compounds is way more motivating and fun. However, as time progress, I just hope I wont lose too much muscle mass.

*some observations*

-Dumbell presses and dips really made a big difference on my chest. They really filled up my chest when I did them. ( I tried doing 1 set of Dumbell presses to see just how much my strength had increased, before I struggled on the 65lbs dumbells and now it was really easy)

-Dropping leg presses has also made my legs smaller. (Weird, because I squat 3x a week now but perhaps the leg press hits the muscle in a different way to make it grow.)

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

In addition to this being a unique experience (other than getting stronger and fun), a few things really stick out.

1) If you are stronger (in hypertrophy capacity levels i.e. 5x5 and not 1RM) in the bench and squat now than you were before and you have shrunk - I'd be more inclined to conclude that you were very weak in these exercises relative to the others you dropped. You don't shrink from having your bench and squat numbers go up unless your starting numbers in these lifts were insufficient to maintain your previous size. I'd be very hesitant to conclude that you require more volume to not even gain but to merely maintain your current level of musculature than everyone else here so something else is likely very wrong and your experience is unique.

2) If you are losing weight - there is a problem. You should read the post just above about the nature of caloric excess. If you have extra calories, you will gain weight. It may be all fat but you will gain weight. I can't reconcile an adequate diet when you are losing weight but getting stronger in the big lifts.

3) Muscle does not just atrophy off the body in 4 weeks especially when a decent amount of activity is being applied. Even if the level of activity were not optimal or enough, your legs and chest should not be shrinking at this rate. There is something wrong.

In a nutshell - something is very off, maybe a combination of things. Did you keep a journal? Can you elaborate a bit about your stats, lifts before beginning, progression, and current lifts. Also maybe include what your old workout used to look like, sets/reps/approx weight used. On the off chance you totally botched the loading period and didn't read it right you might be overtrained but it isn't usually this severe. I really lean toward being weak in some of these lifts (i.e. squat relative to your leg press) and not getting enough total calories. I realize it's frustrating but this stuff just doesn't make any sense and I can honestly say - this can't happen without some extenuating circumstances at work (please tell me if you started this program after running an anabolic cycle).

 

[Santa_Claus]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

In addition to this being a unique experience (other than getting stronger and fun), a few things really stick out.

1) If you are stronger (in hypertrophy capacity levels i.e. 5x5 and not 1RM) in the bench and squat now than you were before and you have shrunk - I'd be more inclined to conclude that you were very weak in these exercises relative to the others you dropped. You don't shrink from having your bench and squat numbers go up unless your starting numbers in these lifts were insufficient to maintain your previous size. I'd be very hesitant to conclude that you require more volume to not even gain but to merely maintain your current level of musculature than everyone else here so something else is likely very wrong and your experience is unique.

2) If you are losing weight - there is a problem. You should read the post just above about the nature of caloric excess. If you have extra calories, you will gain weight. It may be all fat but you will gain weight. I can't reconcile an adequate diet when you are losing weight but getting stronger in the big lifts.

3) Muscle does not just atrophy off the body in 4 weeks especially when a decent amount of activity is being applied. Even if the level of activity were not optimal or enough, your legs and chest should not be shrinking at this rate. There is something wrong.

In a nutshell - something is very off, maybe a combination of things. Did you keep a journal? Can you elaborate a bit about your stats, lifts before beginning, progression, and current lifts. Also maybe include what your old workout used to look like, sets/reps/approx weight used. On the off chance you totally botched the loading period and didn't read it right you might be overtrained but it isn't usually this severe. I really lean toward being weak in some of these lifts (i.e. squat relative to your leg press) and not getting enough total calories. I realize it's frustrating but this stuff just doesn't make any sense and I can honestly say - this can't happen without some extenuating circumstances at work (please tell me if you started this program after running an anabolic cycle).

1)

6'3
~200lbs @ ~14 bodyfat , no steroids
Old workout

Day1:
Weighted dips: 4x8 reps with 35lbs plate/belt
Dumbell presses: 4x8 reps with 65lbs dumbells
Pull-ups: 4xmax with 25lbs plate/belt
Barbell behind neck shoulder press: 4x8 @ 120lbs
abs

Day2
Bench press: 4x8 @ 145~155
deadlift: 4x8 @ 230lbs
seated bent-over row: 4x8 140lbs
abs

Day3
Inclined bench press 4x8 @ 120lbs
parallel Squats 4x8 @ ~ 200lbs
Legpress 4x8 @ ~ 300lbs
calf machine
abs


Now I do the 5x5 routine,
my bench is at 200lbs for 5 reps
deadlift is 280lbs for 5 reps
deep squat is 200lbs for 5 reps.

All those lifts are at about (85~90% of 1rm)

2)
-I used to take 2 protein shakes/day and now I only take one. That's about ~400-500 cals less each day than what I used to get 1 month ago.
(0.5l skim milk, whey protein, 2 scoops of frozen yogourt)

Could that be the main culprit?

3)
[snip] Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy (common in bodybuilding) involves the growth of the sarcoplasm (fluid like substance) and non-contractile proteins that do not directly contribute to muscular force production. Filament area density decreases while cross-sectional area increases, without a significant increase in strength. Myofibrillar hypertrophy occurs due to an increase in myosin-acting filaments. Contractile proteins are synthesized and filament density increases (Zatsiorsky 1995). This type of hypertrophy leads to increased strength production. Sarcoplasmic Hypertrophy Muscle fibers adapt to high volume training by increasing the number of mitochondria (organelles in the cell that are involved in ATP production) in the cell. This type of training also leads to the elevation of enzymes that are involved in glycolytic and oxidative pathways. The volume of sarcoplasmic fluid inside the cell and between the cells is increased with high volume training. This type of training contributes little to maximal strength while it does increase strength endurance due to mitochondria hypertrophy. Growth of connective tissue is also present with sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. [snip]

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/hale6.htm

Could that explain the loss of mass? My muscles were soft and now they are hard.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Could that explain the loss of mass? My muscles were soft and now they are hard.

That belongs on the chat board - you have problems . I don't know anything about this. If we are talking your actual muscles and not some layer of fat obscuring them I don't know what to tell you. I would view it as unimportant or just an odd byproduct of training.

1)

6'3
~200lbs @ ~14 bodyfat , no steroids
Old workout

Day1:
Weighted dips: 4x8 reps with 35lbs plate/belt*
Dumbell presses: 4x8 reps with 65lbs dumbells*
Pull-ups: 4xmax with 25lbs plate/belt
Barbell behind neck shoulder press: 4x8 @ 120lbs*
abs

Day2
Bench press: 4x8 @ 145~155*
deadlift: 4x8 @ 230lbs
seated bent-over row: 4x8 140lbs
abs


Day3
Inclined bench press 4x8 @ 120lbs*
parallel Squats 4x8 @ ~ 200lbs**
Legpress 4x8 @ ~ 300lbs
calf machine
abs

* OKAY - this is a bad sign relative to your strength in the dips. You are dipping 4x8 with bodyweight + 40lbs including the belt. That's 240 range. Your bench is just a bit more than 1/2 that at the exact same volume range. As a matter of fact it's not much stronger than your behind the neck press which is no stronger than your incline. As a matter of fact, I'm contrasting your dip power with all your presses. I'm betting you have long arms/weak shoulders? Your pressing power is not so good besides the dip.

Now I do the 5x5 routine,
my bench is at 200lbs for 5 reps
deadlift is 280lbs for 5 reps
deep squat is 200lbs for 5 reps.

** Your bench is getting better (along with all your lifts - it's only been 3 weeks), so you are going in the right direction, you won't have to deal with this for long. Maybe after the 5x5 throw in 4 weeks of general training and include dips again for a bit since you seem to be good at them. It looks like you had to sacrifice some weight on the squat to get the full range. Your 5RM is now just even with your old 4x8 volume weight. That is a big difference. It will serve you well as you progress but sometimes it's 1 step backward before you get to take a few forward as in this case. The legpress might also have been serving some development here particularly in the quads which most people are quick to notice. With lower weight on the squat and no leg press this is part of your step back. It'll be okay.

All those lifts are at about (85~90% of 1rm)

2)
-I used to take 2 protein shakes/day and now I only take one. That's about ~400-500 cals less each day than what I used to get 1 month ago.
(0.5l skim milk, whey protein, 2 scoops of frozen yogourt)

Could that be the main culprit?

400-500 calories is a lot. If someone consumes 4000 calories that's 12.5% of total intake (assume 500 cals). Going the other way, someone who consumed 4000 calories and dropped the shake goes to 3500 so now it's 14.3% of total intake. That's pretty significant. Your activity level also plays a part but that's what I mean about caloric excess and a margin. It almost sounds like you needed that shake just to maintain your bodyweight. I can't say for certain but you should not be losing weight (even if some muscle is attrophying). Don't worry too much though. Add back the calories and keep pushing on the lifts, in 3 weeks you've made some major progress so in 2-3 months time you'll be golden with an enhanced body. In honesty I don't think you had a good foundation in the compound lifts before starting this. Don't worry, this will give it to you in a hurry but in your case you just have to suck it up and wait for your lifts to build in. I guarantee it won't be too long and you will blow past where you were before.

3)
[snip] Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy (common in bodybuilding) involves the growth of the sarcoplasm (fluid like substance) and non-contractile proteins that do not directly contribute to muscular force production. Filament area density decreases while cross-sectional area increases, without a significant increase in strength. Myofibrillar hypertrophy occurs due to an increase in myosin-acting filaments. Contractile proteins are synthesized and filament density increases (Zatsiorsky 1995). This type of hypertrophy leads to increased strength production. Sarcoplasmic Hypertrophy Muscle fibers adapt to high volume training by increasing the number of mitochondria (organelles in the cell that are involved in ATP production) in the cell. This type of training also leads to the elevation of enzymes that are involved in glycolytic and oxidative pathways. The volume of sarcoplasmic fluid inside the cell and between the cells is increased with high volume training. This type of training contributes little to maximal strength while it does increase strength endurance due to mitochondria hypertrophy. Growth of connective tissue is also present with sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. [snip]

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/hale6.htm

Could that explain the loss of mass? My muscles were soft and now they are hard.

If the above paragraph is what the hard/soft this relates to, you are deep in the world of PhD land. Siff, Zatsiorsky, and Verkhoshansky are great to read (check out the books Science and Practice of Strength Training - Zat and Supertraining Siff/Ver) but really getting your brain around this stuff requires a level of knowledge far beyond what is required to make optimal use of their programs and training styles. It's interesting but don't get too bogged down in this. The original article is just pointing out that strength doesn't necessarily correlate to size nor does hypertrophy follow strength increases in a linear manner over a short period despite strong correlations over longer periods. Work on increasing your capacities in the core lifts (not necessarily 1RM but 5x5 is fine), eat more than you need, and the science will take care of itself for the most part.

 

[Topside]

Is there a way to make DFHT into a 3day a week split. Could you go upper lower upper one week then lower upper lower the following week?

 

[|D_J^B_J|]

Another question on food intake: if you are not a newbie, is it still possible to achieve strength gains while on a caloric deficit? If so, how is this possible?