Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

[Tom Treutlein]

Well, people are advised to add in an accessory move or two, should they feel the need. I've seen people add in one bicep and one tricep exercise for 3x8 once a week, so if you want, throw in a calf exercise, and leave out one of the above ancillaries.

I'd really try the program on its own, first, just to get a nice feel for it, so you know where you stand and what to expect. Toy with it thereafter.

 

[Madcow2]

To be honest, just ignore calves for the duration. If they aren't buldging afterward I'm sure 2 weeks of training them directly post 5x5 will have them bigger and buldgier than before. Generally, calves grow right in line with the rest and are heavily genetic dependent anyway. Said another way, you have nothing to gain so don't dilute your efforts because if they hinder the squat even a tad - that will dilute your results.

 

[guldukat]

To be honest, just ignore calves for the duration. If they aren't buldging afterward I'm sure 2 weeks of training them directly post 5x5 will have them bigger and buldgier than before. Generally, calves grow right in line with the rest and are heavily genetic dependent anyway. Said another way, you have nothing to gain so don't dilute your efforts because if they hinder the squat even a tad - that will dilute your results.

I hear ya (and Tom ). If there was a chance it'd hurt the squats, I'd leave them out. I get pretty horrible DOMS with calves no matter what I do, so it'd probably be cutting off my nose to spite my face.

Sensible as that is, it is kind of a bitter pill; whereas I'd actually enjoy not doing direct arm work for awhile, my calves are...odd. They were large without any training, but they lose the size I've added in years since very quickly when not trained heavy regularly.

I hate to think much of that painful calf work could be for naught, but I guess it's a small price to pay Three steps forward, a cm or two back.

 

[KhorneDeth]

To be honest, just ignore calves for the duration. If they aren't buldging afterward I'm sure 2 weeks of training them directly post 5x5 will have them bigger and buldgier than before. Generally, calves grow right in line with the rest and are heavily genetic dependent anyway. Said another way, you have nothing to gain so don't dilute your efforts because if they hinder the squat even a tad - that will dilute your results.

First -- outstanding work here, to all involved, but specifically Madcow2.

On the calves issue, I'm subscribed to the thread and this is my very first run through on the program. I'm currently on week 6 -- first week of Intensity phase, last week was Deload. I had the same reservations as guldkat in reference to calves, namely: would it be too much to put some direct work in there?

Well, I went ahead and tried it (I know, I know, don't bastardize the program -- sorry!!) by trying ONE set for 12 on the Mon and Fri workouts. This equates to only 2 direct sets for calves per week (ignoring warmups). Once I moved to the Deload/Intensity phase I've dropped the calves to one set for 8 reps to keep inline with the slash-the-volume concept.

So far, the poundages have kept coming in everything and my squat has not been hindered at all. With such low-volume work, I don't think I'm really affecting anything negatively, but I DO seem to be seeing noticeable improvements in my calves (despite being in a slight caloric deficit since I'm slow-cutting). Could this be due more to the squats? Sure, but then again, maybe not. Opinions on this?

-- KhorneDeth

 

[CrazyRussian]

Sorry if this question has alrady been asked in the previous 14 pages: is it OK to sub Dumbell bench press for barbell Bench, or is the Barbell press neccesary? Thanks

 

[KhorneDeth]

Also, I wanted to comment on something I noticed with the program that maybe others have experienced as well. I think I nailed the ramping during the Volume phase because I swear to GOD I was on the verge of completely burning out during week 4. Set PRs left and right by the end, especially squat and bench, and generally did very well overall, but I definitely prayed for the Deload week last week like a gift from the heavens.

However, I did notice in the Deload week that even though the volume was drastically reduced, the weights were still nearly as brutal as they were in Week 4! It made me nervous that even doing less than half the reps, I was STILL struggling to finish sets!

Now, come to this Week 6, first week on Intensity phase, the weights are 5-10lbs heavier across the board -- BUT THEY'RE GOING UP EASIER THAN LAST WEEK. I would assume that last week really did "deload" me, and now I'm fresher for the more increased intensity?

Anyone else experience Week 6 being FAR easier than they expected, despite the across-the-board increase in weight? Madcow, comments?

Again, truly topshelf information in this thread. Thank you sincerely.

-- KhorneDeth

 

[blut wump]

I also found week 6 to be a very comfortable week. In week 6 you probably are really still deloading and so it makes sense for it to be 'light'. I found week 7 to be an effort again.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

but I DO seem to be seeing noticeable improvements in my calves (despite being in a slight caloric deficit since I'm slow-cutting). Could this be due more to the squats? Sure, but then again, maybe not. Opinions on this?

Given the effectiveness of direct calf work - betting that they had anything to do with your calf size increase other than placebo is going to pay huge odds (big long shot).

Anyone else experience Week 6 being FAR easier than they expected, despite the across-the-board increase in weight? Madcow, comments?

If you are really pushing throughout the record weeks you will generally still feel pretty beat up during week 5 deloading, as you move into week 6 you tend to feel a lot better. This is important stuff to note in a journal. Specifically, noting that loading at that level for that duration might require a lighter 2nd week but you were rebounded nicely after that point. Likewise, if your weights start to go down again - you'd note the loading was too much to step into the 3x per week deload/intensity regimine. The 3x per week will require most people to take extra days and/or slash volume. It's not a pride thing but merely how much load you can accomodate and how long it takes you to recover from it. Two world champions with equivalent lifts can have vastly different tolerances. It doesn't mean a thing other than properly dialing in each of their programs.

Overall, sounds good like you are hitting everything right. Deep into the loading weeks is no joke and you should expect to reap some rewards in the coming weeks. Just keep in mind that extra days will likely be beneficial rather than detrimental.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Sorry if this question has alrady been asked in the previous 14 pages: is it OK to sub Dumbell bench press for barbell Bench, or is the Barbell press neccesary? Thanks

Barbell really is a much better option for stimulating growth - basically just weight applied to the system (if you "feel" a dumbell isolating a muscle or region more just take into account that feel means nothing and isolation for general purpose training isn't something you want to pursue). Flat barbell or slightly inclined barbell are both acceptable.

That said, if you have an injury or damage to your shoulder that prevents you from using the BB then dumbells are without doubt your next alternative but for the general purpose of stimulating growth and getting stronger a barbell allows for the most weight and is the best option.

 

[JKurz1]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Barbell really is a much better option for stimulating growth - basically just weight applied to the system (if you "feel" a dumbell isolating a muscle or region more just take into account that feel means nothing and isolation for general purpose training isn't something you want to pursue). Flat barbell or slightly inclined barbell are both acceptable.

That said, if you have an injury or damage to your shoulder that prevents you from using the BB then dumbells are without doubt your next alternative but for the general purpose of stimulating growth and getting stronger a barbell allows for the most weight and is the best option.

Just a small disagreement on some on the opinions you have on machines vs free weights and dbell vs barbell........not a flame, just a difference of opinion. I, for one, never used to dbell bench/incline until a couple of years ago. I found the barbell, which I used religiously, put a lot of strength and size into my entire upper body, but it wasnt till I switched over, every other routine, that my pec muscles really began to blossom. Same with my back with str8 rows vs dbell........there is no "better" when bodybuilding is concerned........I do agree, that the Smith machine should be burned, as with many other machines...........the 3 I would keep around though, are the low pully row, the lat pull, and the donkey calf machines............feel or no feel, they work wonders..........