Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

[guldukat]

One thing to keep in mind is that a movement can "feel" great but not produce great results. To be honest, I think cable rows feel very good and I can really feel them working the muscles but a few months down the road barbell rows leave them in the dust when it comes to hypertrophy and strength.

Agreed. Though I don't do them, I'm sure others really "feel" cable crossovers in their pecs, and that exercise yields next to nothing IMO.

I will say that I might've overstated the "it feels good!" aspect of the rounded-back row I certainly wouldn't compare it to a BB row (or even a chin, now that I'm being more honest w/ myself), but even after I got acclimated to the movement, poundage progression was surprisingly regular, and I could see a real difference in lat width as I worked further and further down the stack--more, I think, than I was seeing without it.

But that could be a false cause fallacy; I've progressed in chins and rows recently, too, so it's impossible to prove the one movement did that much *shrugs*

The 5x5 really focuses around using the best exercises and I'd caution any substitutions that aren't of the very heavy free weight variety i.e. high pulls for deadlifts, cleans for rows, incline BB for standing military - this is what I have in mind. In addition a movement can feel great with very light weight but the weight applied to the system is part of the stimulus - this is why barbell curls work much better than concentration curls and also why the dead and squat are so damn effective.

Oh, I'm with you

I actually don't train the exercise with high reps, but that's neither here nor there. In fact, I can't even remember why I brought the exercise up in this thread...I must've been more out of it yesterday than I thought. (In the future, I think I'll refrain from posting on days that I've tried to put the TV remote in my fridge. I'm scatter-brained as is...couple that with mental exhaustion, and you got a real winner! )

As far as rows, there's a good thread here that lists the proper way to do them - acceleration throughout the rep, back as close to 90 degrees as you can get it. Towards the bottom of the first page is what I and many others consider to be the most effective row where it is performed dynamically from the floor. http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366601

With the pauses at the bottom? Yeah. I read that thread awhile back and switched over to those. My poundages took a real hit, but they're moving up a little bit each time out. Love 'em. The only thing I'm doing that you might not like is I tend to hold at the top of the movement for a moment. Should I nix that?

 

[JKurz1]

Why do so many frown on this routine if one is trying to gain mass and praise it religiously for strength? Is it the rep range?

 

[BionicBC]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Why do so many frown on this routine if one is trying to gain mass and praise it religiously for strength? Is it the rep range?

Who specifically FROWNS on this for gaining mass?
Bionic

 

[blut wump]

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with cable rows it's just that they're only half an exercise and what they offer pales into insignificance once you're able to get back onto free weights and do cleans and barbell rows. The cable row machine has been great for me through a lower-back rehab and I was wary of doing 'the real thing" but I'm glad I persevered.

 

[BionicBC]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

LAST NIGHT'S WORKOUT: Week 8, Day 1
Squats
135 x 3, warmup
225 x 3, warmup
315 x 3, 3 sets

Bench
135 x 3, warmup
185 x 3
225 x 3
255 x 3-needed slight assistance on last rep only-record!

Row
135 x 3, warmup
185 x 3
225 x 3
275 x 3-RECORD!

 

[blut wump]

Congrats on the records, Bionic.

 

[JKurz1]

No offense, but something isnt right with your row vs. bench weight comparison......great job anyways Bionic!

 

[BionicBC]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

No offense, but something isnt right with your row vs. bench weight comparison......great job anyways Bionic!

Yea, and it pisses me off!
My bench has always been weak, I dont know if its mental or what, but its getting better. Im very impressed by my weight at bent-over rows, 275 was pushing it for sure, it was a 15 or 20lb jump from last week, but i felt good last night and hit em no problem. My form probably could have been a lil better, my back came up some from parallell, but nothing too bad.
Bionic

 

[guldukat]

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with cable rows it's just that they're only half an exercise and what they offer pales into insignificance once you're able to get back onto free weights and do cleans and barbell rows. The cable row machine has been great for me through a lower-back rehab and I was wary of doing 'the real thing" but I'm glad I persevered.

Absolutely.

I actually don't like regular cable rows. They never did much of anything for me.

But the variation I described...well. As I said, I don't know why I even mentioned it here; it's just not a viable substitute for the heavier compound stuff. If you happen to try a different routine and have room for such a thing, however, give them a shot. They're the best thing I've ever done with a cable station, and that includes weighted ankle kickbacks

 

[guldukat]

More on-topic:

I've read Starr's stuff for years now. He'd periodically mention assistance work, but I've not seen anyone here doing much in the way of such moves.

Speaking for myself, I would mostly be happy to stick "only" to the very basics...I'm quite sure that without any additional exercises, I'd be begging for that deloading week!

Still, I'm wondering...would it be a very big drain to integrate a calf exercise? I've never squatted three times per week, but when I've made good progress in squats and my thighs have grown decently, if I didn't train calves directly, they typically didn't budge. Maybe that'd change with the higher frequency?

I'd guess that adding calf raises wouldn't be that taxing on the system, but I dunno--could that be the straw that breaks the camel's back?