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Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

siamesedream said:
Madcow, how exactly can one judge how much workload they can actually handle without overtraining themselves? As I've stated before, I can't do an already brilliantly-designed program like the 5x5 right now since I have a fairly serious back injury which will plague me for at least 6 more months or so (according to the docs). I've designed a program for myself utilizing exercises like one-legged squats, weighted push-ups, weighted dips, weighted pullups, weighted diamond push-ups, etc. and have been trying very hard to fine-tune it using your geocities webpage as a resource to help me in my design. Well, this week, I was forced to deload by decreasing frequency to 2x a week and dropping the volume since I fried a few of my muscles.

Since I'm deloading, it's no biggie and, as I've learned, it's beneficial to have planned overload and planned deload periods. However, I've been lifting for less than a year and also know that dual-factor training is not something necessary for myself yet, or at least it shouldn't be part of my plan at the moment. Therefore, how exactly can I guage what sort of workload I can handle in order to have a continuous training plan? I have a backpack and weights and add weights every week to stimulate progressive overload, so that part is taken care of. As per Glenn's advice, I know I shouldn't be planning failure and, once failure is reached for a 2-week period, I need to ramp the weights back down and start progressively overloading again. Thanks to that, I have not been training to failure, but I nonetheless realized earlier this week that my muscles were fried. I haven't reached failure yet, but my muscles got overloaded anyways. Obviously, this tells me that my workload has ben way too heavy for me to handle without a deloading period.

Of course, I now realize my workload will have to be less to avoid dual-factor training, but how will I know what I can handle or will I just have to find that out myself over time?

If your strength is still increasing, you are not overtraining or really overreaching (performance deficit is a main indication).

As for determining workload, cookie-cutter shot in the dark based on your experience and what other people have done and work from there. Feel your way, no real other way to do it.
 
FYI I updated both single-factor/linear and dual-factor/periodized versions on my website. I still don't have the excel files hosted and linked but that's coming. I still cringe at the size of these docs, anyone who's run these knows they are damn simple to set up but so many people have anxiety and uncertainty about every little bullshit nuance that more info is better - but it still looks like a much more complicated setup than it is.

Advanced:
http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Periodized_5x5.htm
Intermediate:
http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

I sent this as a response to a PM. I tried to clean it up a bit more. Maybe it's an enjoyable read for some.

Madcow2 said:
I'm thinking you might have a bit of misunderstanding with 1 minute or less rest intervals. You don't get strong on the compound lifts doing that and getting better at these lifts is about the easiest way to add muscle I can think of. Not sure where you got that interpretation but unless he's lost his mind he's not going to tell you to do this on a long term consistent basis all the time on big lifts. Maybe you should clarify with him.

Anyway, all programs work to a degree for hypertrophy. Even Westside which is a dedicated PL program works A LOT better than most of what passes for dedicated hypertrophy programs around the net. Take a look at their lifters - that's a lot of muscle.

Take a look at the pictures in this thread - that guy just started doing biceps regularly, it's all big compound lifts, never really spent any time on hypertrophy specific stuff, looks pretty good dieted down (this is actually a good thread and he speaks to his current training which was altered due to an injury and diet): http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/index.php?showtopic=1110

I really think post #42 spells it out pretty clearly: http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/index.php?showtopic=1110&view=findpost&p=15436

Take a look at my response to this question - it should make a lot of sense and maybe clarify things a bit: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=443231

Anyway, I'm not saying there's not more to hypertrophy and building a great body than getting strong in a 5 rep max or 8 rep max range in big lifts (and eating of course). What I'm saying is that this is the overriding major 95% giant block factor and that all the little shit doesn't add up to squat if you aren't doing this - and this is precisely what most BBers don't understand as for some reason they think BBing is black and white different from any other strength sport. I mean, maybe BBers only want to hit doubles and look good running the bases. Okay. So you have a ton of guys tweaking their bats for doubles, trying different gloves, ensuring that they have the prettiest shoes and keep them shined. The problem is that whether you want to hit doubles or home runs you still have to hit the damn ball and swing the bat hard. Spend time learning how to hit the ball and swing the bat hard, worry about the little stuff when you need to but no matter how much effort you put into your outfit or gloves, if you don't know how to hit the ball and can't swing the bat well, you won't be running any bases - doubles or homers. You're in the dug out wearing your fancy shit.

A lot of the BBers who were on Elite's board learned this through the 5x5. They didn't need fancy supplements, or a Zen diet, or tons of isolation work, or a dedicated and stamped "hypertrophy program". They all grew more than they had in years by eating food and getting strong at the compound lifts using a well designed program (and this is largely abscent from BBing as they would know well designed if it bit them on the ass). These guys all remarked about their medial and rear delts really buldging out and looking great under zero direct work and just a bunch of rowing and pressing. Traps getting big from no shrugging, just getting better at deads and rows. No fancy stuff, no exotic angles, no cutting edge research based on snails and untrained elderly parapalegics. Just simple blocking and tackling. And being hypertrophy people, what's the best thing to do when they are done - some work in different rep ranges. More than a few have had a lot of success pairing HST and a 5x5 or whatever together - very similar stuff and they potentiate each other synergistically for a BBer.

Anyway those are my thoughts. Keep it simple. Focus on what's most important for your goal and sweat the small stuff after you have all the big blocks taken care of and optimized. You want to look good hitting doubles, make sure you can acutally hit the ball first before spending all day shopping for the right gloves.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Most enjoyable ;) I knew I was going to see Gulledge before I clicked the link :)
 
Above, I asked:

protobuilder said:
it seems like DF is a superior training program/theory . . . so why not start there?

My question got answered. I found this today and thought I'd post it as well. It's just part of the readthecore interview w/ Glenn & Rip. This just kinda' backs up what anotherbutters said above.

Mark Rippetoe said:
Whatever means of training you pick, progressing as quickly as possible also involves planning the degree of variation that is appropriate. Whether you use Westside style training or 5X5 to train your squat, if you are capable of increasing the weight on the bar every week, you should be doing it, and not waiting around for the end of an 8 week cycle to increase your weights. Likewise, if you aren’t capable of progressing every workout or every week, you need to add some long-range planning, and not let the appropriate long term stress and rest happen once in a while by accident.

Noobs should milk gains week-to-week if possible rather than complicate things & drag the gains out w/ the DF program.
 
I really hope that point is clear in my stuff now. What has been really been hard for me is to realize that the BBing world doesn't understand that progression is really the key and programming is simply a matter of getting the fastest and most efficient progression for an individual. I've also kind of not realized that a lot of guys don't deliberately track their big lifts at all over time in anything other than an informal 'I used to...these days I' type setting and almost never as a goal. I'm just isolated from the whole BBing thing and kind of assume some stuff is a given.

This stuff would be a lot clearer - and will be eventually as this is kind of why I put that geocities site up so changes were easy, but this began with a fairly homogenous group of people with a minimum of a few years of training experience and often much more or at least some inclination to performance rather than pure aesthetics. As a result, inexperienced people fell through the cracks or got lost in minutia and nuances reading detailed explanations that might have been theoretically interesting for them but not appropriate to implement.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

I am just getting back into training after a trauma (auto accident) blood clot almost made me "no more".

I am recovered and have dusted off the cob webs for the past 30 days and feel ready to rumble.

My first question is what can I sub. for weighted dips?
My home gym has a ton of items BUT NO dip rack for now..
How long should I utilize this type of program before I experiment with Dual?
During my layoff of 1 year I accumulated some FAT.
I have lost 15 lbs just by rearranging my eating habits and plan to keep it simple with med-high pro/low-med starchy carbs/high veggies/better fats
I wish to slow starve the fat by building muscle and worry about leaning up later next year. I hope my increased activity will naturally help.

Am I thinking right.?
My competitive day were some time ago and pharmaceuticals played a part so I may be off a notch or two here...

All help is appreciated.....

Brother_Swole
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

My first question is what can I sub. for weighted dips?
My home gym has a ton of items BUT NO dip rack for now..
Close grip bench press would work
How long should I utilize this type of program before I experiment with Dual
Til you hit a prolonged sticking point. Milk it for all it's worth. IMO you're gonna gain like CRAZY coming off a layoff. Start light so your joints have time to get strong - your muscles will likely blow the hell up once you train heavy.
During my layoff of 1 year I accumulated some FAT.
I have lost 15 lbs just by rearranging my eating habits and plan to keep it simple with med-high pro/low-med starchy carbs/high veggies/better fats
I wish to slow starve the fat by building muscle and worry about leaning up later next year. I hope my increased activity will naturally help.

Am I thinking right.?

I think so.

Glad to hear you recovered well enough to get back under the bar. Good luck bud.
 
Last edited:
JM Press is a good triceps exercise. Prefer pressing movements to extensions. Mix up your bench grip width during a session for at least your warmups.

Wow, we've hit 1000 posts in this thread.
 
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