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Bench Pressing and Shoulders
- Thread starter Deciever
- Start date
brianmincher
New member
I train rear delts probably 4 times per week. I use a lot of bands wrapped around one of the power rack post for reverse fly's, and seated dumbell powercleans. Also, in my opinion rows will hit the rear delt as it works the whole upper back area.
B.
B.
Arioch
New member
I agree that the bench hits primarily the anterior deltoid. Again, this is why in the Westside program, the rear delts are given a great deal of attention.
And it is not that benching in itself is such a unhealthy movement, but rather that it specifically works certain muscle surrounding a joint, and the ones that do not get worked need development to avoid a muscle imbalance. Also, it is far easier to develop and work the internal rotators through heavy benching, where far more weight is being used, than the external rotators.
I seem to recall reading that post by Siff, but have not been paying as much attention to other things lately, so if you would post it here, I would appreciate it.
And it is not that benching in itself is such a unhealthy movement, but rather that it specifically works certain muscle surrounding a joint, and the ones that do not get worked need development to avoid a muscle imbalance. Also, it is far easier to develop and work the internal rotators through heavy benching, where far more weight is being used, than the external rotators.
I seem to recall reading that post by Siff, but have not been paying as much attention to other things lately, so if you would post it here, I would appreciate it.
Here it is. Any thoughts?
***While there may be the occasional need for isolated rotator cuff training
in rehabilitation or in rare cases where athletes may have some proven
deficiency in some shoulder muscles, there is no real need for this type of
exercise if one is using complex three-dimensional exercises in training.
Moreover, since isolated rotator cuff exercises done in the absence of other
shoulder exercises can cause other so-called functional or biomechanical
imbalances, their frequent use may lead to other problems. Remember that
overtraining injuries always tend to be more common in isolated exercises
where deliberate attempts are made to avoid load-sharing by other muscles and
soft tissues.
Though the rotator cuff muscles are important for certain important aspects
of shoulder stabilisation, several other shoulder muscles, such as the
deltoids, both sets of teres muscles also play a vital role in the dynamic
stabilisation of the shoulder, as is shown by a biomechanical or
kinesiological analysis of common upper extremity movements.
One example of shoulder exercises which offer integrated rotator cuff,
deltoid, bicep, latissimus and pectoralis movement are full range cable
crossovers (facing the cable machine) and reverse cable-crossovers (back
towards the hi-lo pulley machine), performed in a complex with one another.
The movements should begin at one extreme end and end at the opposote extreme
end, including marked trunk extension and flexion, as well as arms crossing
in front of the body.
By the way, any physical therapist reading this will immediately recognise
these cross-over movements as ones which are basically the same as the PNF
(Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation) patterns which PTs are taught for
shoulder rehabilitation, anyway. Therefore, it has always surprised me that
so many PTs prescribe isolated rotator cuff exercises when these PNF patterns
(and their three variations on each basic theme) actually contain these
isolated exercises, plus add a far more functional dimension to the action.
Snatch pull-throughs and overhead snatch squats also offer dynamic and static
strengthening of rotator cuff and other shoulder strengthening exercises.
However, I prefer to think of rotator cuff exercises as part of static and
dynamic shoulder strengthening and that this involves the interactive use of
several exercises, including forms of snatching and pressing (standing,
bench, declined and inclined), rowing, lat pulldowns, snatch and clean pulls,
push presses or jerks, and cable cross overs.
If any training program includes these types of multi-joint exercise, then
there is no real need for any isolated rotator cuff exercises. Interestingly,
I have worked with many thousands of athletes and casual gym users and never
had a single one experience any debilitating rotator cuff injury, despite
there having been many throwers, gymnasts, rowers, rugby players, tennis
players and cricketers and lifters among them.
That is no great tribute to anyone - it is just that their programs have been
multi-faceted enough to offer adequate strengthening of the most important
muscles needed in those folks' lives. Of course, I should mention that this
also has a great deal to do with the fact that individualised correctness of
technique was constantly taught and stressed.
As I have pointed out before, rotator cuff injuries are not necessarily a
consequence of rotator cuff muscle weaknesses or imbalances, but often due to
defective technique and timing of the production of force over the range of
movement. Quite simply, if your shoulder musculature is fit to execute a
given task to a given level in a given way, then any deviation from these
familiar conditions may result in injury. No amount of rotator cuff muscle
strength is going to prevent shoulder injuries caused by poor technique,
overtraining or stupidity.
-----------------
Dr Mel C Siff
Denver, USA
-Zulu
***While there may be the occasional need for isolated rotator cuff training
in rehabilitation or in rare cases where athletes may have some proven
deficiency in some shoulder muscles, there is no real need for this type of
exercise if one is using complex three-dimensional exercises in training.
Moreover, since isolated rotator cuff exercises done in the absence of other
shoulder exercises can cause other so-called functional or biomechanical
imbalances, their frequent use may lead to other problems. Remember that
overtraining injuries always tend to be more common in isolated exercises
where deliberate attempts are made to avoid load-sharing by other muscles and
soft tissues.
Though the rotator cuff muscles are important for certain important aspects
of shoulder stabilisation, several other shoulder muscles, such as the
deltoids, both sets of teres muscles also play a vital role in the dynamic
stabilisation of the shoulder, as is shown by a biomechanical or
kinesiological analysis of common upper extremity movements.
One example of shoulder exercises which offer integrated rotator cuff,
deltoid, bicep, latissimus and pectoralis movement are full range cable
crossovers (facing the cable machine) and reverse cable-crossovers (back
towards the hi-lo pulley machine), performed in a complex with one another.
The movements should begin at one extreme end and end at the opposote extreme
end, including marked trunk extension and flexion, as well as arms crossing
in front of the body.
By the way, any physical therapist reading this will immediately recognise
these cross-over movements as ones which are basically the same as the PNF
(Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation) patterns which PTs are taught for
shoulder rehabilitation, anyway. Therefore, it has always surprised me that
so many PTs prescribe isolated rotator cuff exercises when these PNF patterns
(and their three variations on each basic theme) actually contain these
isolated exercises, plus add a far more functional dimension to the action.
Snatch pull-throughs and overhead snatch squats also offer dynamic and static
strengthening of rotator cuff and other shoulder strengthening exercises.
However, I prefer to think of rotator cuff exercises as part of static and
dynamic shoulder strengthening and that this involves the interactive use of
several exercises, including forms of snatching and pressing (standing,
bench, declined and inclined), rowing, lat pulldowns, snatch and clean pulls,
push presses or jerks, and cable cross overs.
If any training program includes these types of multi-joint exercise, then
there is no real need for any isolated rotator cuff exercises. Interestingly,
I have worked with many thousands of athletes and casual gym users and never
had a single one experience any debilitating rotator cuff injury, despite
there having been many throwers, gymnasts, rowers, rugby players, tennis
players and cricketers and lifters among them.
That is no great tribute to anyone - it is just that their programs have been
multi-faceted enough to offer adequate strengthening of the most important
muscles needed in those folks' lives. Of course, I should mention that this
also has a great deal to do with the fact that individualised correctness of
technique was constantly taught and stressed.
As I have pointed out before, rotator cuff injuries are not necessarily a
consequence of rotator cuff muscle weaknesses or imbalances, but often due to
defective technique and timing of the production of force over the range of
movement. Quite simply, if your shoulder musculature is fit to execute a
given task to a given level in a given way, then any deviation from these
familiar conditions may result in injury. No amount of rotator cuff muscle
strength is going to prevent shoulder injuries caused by poor technique,
overtraining or stupidity.
-----------------
Dr Mel C Siff
Denver, USA
-Zulu
Arioch
New member
Note that the exercise that he recommends are rarely done by most people, with the exception of Olympic lifters and PL'ers training Westside. Face pulls are a variation of reverse cable crossovers, for our purposes, and serve much the same function, along with DB power cleans.
Please notice how his idea of a fully integrated training program, which is a very good idea, differs from what most people do, even most PL'ers, as the progressive overload method is still the most commonly used. This is used despite the number of shoulder injuries it produces, and the success of Westside Barbell Club, which is nothing short of incredible.
Please notice how his idea of a fully integrated training program, which is a very good idea, differs from what most people do, even most PL'ers, as the progressive overload method is still the most commonly used. This is used despite the number of shoulder injuries it produces, and the success of Westside Barbell Club, which is nothing short of incredible.
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