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Bench Pressing and Shoulders
- Thread starter Deciever
- Start date
I think the shoulders are pretty important, but of course not like the tri's! but they come into play in the middle...just after you get the bar off your chest.. after about 3/4 of the way up its pretty much all tri's!! I think the fronts get worked the most when benching! Maybe wrong, but they seem to get the most sore for me, without doing any other shoulder lifts. As far as rotator's they probably wont "increase" you bench directly, but WILL help your stabilizers from injury!! I do these once per week after tri's and shoulders... do light weight for like 15-20 reps...Good preventative excercise 
Deciever
New member
alright, i was just wondering. I do rotator cuff exercises twice a week (i started doin em 3 weeks ago). I think i need to strengthen my shoulders a bit.. they just dont feel strong.. maybe it would help with the transition point of the bench, right before the tries kick in, if i really got my shoulders stronger
Deciever
New member
Since the front deltoids are used for flexion of the arm, it makes since that the incline bench would activate the deltoids much more than the flat or decline positions. Once again our EMG study agrees. The incline bench press with a wide grip produced more electrical energy than the narrow grip. Francois remarks, "I agree! The greater the incline of the bench the more the front delts will be activated." Dr. Arria adds: "While the narrow grip is a stronger position, the wider grip produces more stress to the muscle."
i just found that for myself
.. maybe i need some wide grip inclines into my routine... i could use that as a ME exercise combo with close grip incline.. just do 1 set close, 1 set wide, raise weight, repeat
i just found that for myself
.. maybe i need some wide grip inclines into my routine... i could use that as a ME exercise combo with close grip incline.. just do 1 set close, 1 set wide, raise weight, repeatpowerlifterjay
New member
Persoanlly i do no pressing for shoulders but i used to so maybe that helped before. But with all the pressing from benching and boards and Jms i feel like my delts are getting enough. I do side and rear raises along with seated face pulls for rear delt. Rears in my opinion help stabilive on the decend letting the bar hit the same place each and everytime. They are important. Do some front delt work plate raises or light militaries. Never do them to the rear. And rotator work cant be done enough in my opinion. Keep doing them. It may not make your bench go up but will help you from hurting yourself in that area.
Deciever
New member
yeah, i probably should separate them into two me days....
pljay, i havent done board presses or jm presses , because im sticking to westside basics for the bench part of the program. Since i dont do them, they delts done get hit very hard. I do side and rear and front raises, and sometiems plate raises.. i'll read up on it, and figure out some stuff to do.
pljay, i havent done board presses or jm presses , because im sticking to westside basics for the bench part of the program. Since i dont do them, they delts done get hit very hard. I do side and rear and front raises, and sometiems plate raises.. i'll read up on it, and figure out some stuff to do.
For me i think that my delts are a weak piont. I havn't rally worked them in over a year. I do side front and rear raises whenever i feel like it and i htnk tha they are necesary for me keeping my shoulders in working order. Rotator work is a must for suport and i think can add a few lbs. to a bench if they are a wak piont.
I think that the shoulders are really the key to upper body strength. Think about this-the shoulders are the only muscle group that connects with all the upper body muscles. I am not saying that strengthening the shoulders will increase the BP like strengthing the triceps would.
Try dumbell cleans for sholders they are a cool exercise and they strengthen the rotators too. You don't need much weight. I have a video of Halbert doing these with 25pound dumbells
Try dumbell cleans for sholders they are a cool exercise and they strengthen the rotators too. You don't need much weight. I have a video of Halbert doing these with 25pound dumbells
My Input:
"How much do the shoulders help in the bench press??"
A lot.
"Where do they perform their most work in the lift?"
Throughout the lift.
"Which head of the shoulder is used the most in the bench press?"
Front head.
"Also, would strengthening your rotator cuff, in turn, strengthen your bench press?"
It probably would, although this is a hot topic of debate. I'm leaning towards possibly saying 'no'
If your military press is less than 70% of your bench, strengthen it.
Shoulders are VERY RARELY the problem. It's usually the lats, tris, or lack of speed.
-Zulu
"How much do the shoulders help in the bench press??"
A lot.
"Where do they perform their most work in the lift?"
Throughout the lift.
"Which head of the shoulder is used the most in the bench press?"
Front head.
"Also, would strengthening your rotator cuff, in turn, strengthen your bench press?"
It probably would, although this is a hot topic of debate. I'm leaning towards possibly saying 'no'
If your military press is less than 70% of your bench, strengthen it.
Shoulders are VERY RARELY the problem. It's usually the lats, tris, or lack of speed.
-Zulu
Rotator Cuff training has almost become an axiom in what concerns heavy benching assistance.
This leads us to conclude that the Benchpress is an inherently dangerous lift. There are aboud 600 muscles in the body. Why isolate such a small muscle as the infraspinatus in the hopes of increasing the benchpress?
That is part of what Mel Siff says.
Maybe Arioch can help us out here.
-Zulu
This leads us to conclude that the Benchpress is an inherently dangerous lift. There are aboud 600 muscles in the body. Why isolate such a small muscle as the infraspinatus in the hopes of increasing the benchpress?
That is part of what Mel Siff says.
Maybe Arioch can help us out here.
-Zulu
Nothing wrong with adding a little delt work in there when you train your bench. You could always use overhead pin presses for a ME exercise for a few weeks...
B True
B True
Arioch
New member
The rotator cuff's do not play a direct role in increasing the bench, per se, but they are vital to the proper function of the shoulders. The primary reason for strengthening the rotator cuffs is to avoid a muscle imbalance which can lead to injury. The heavy pressing work will significantly work the internal rotators, hence the focus on strengthening the externals in the Westside program. The goal here is not to increase the bench, but maintain optimal health and perfomance. An injury free lifter is a happy lifter.
Also, the wider the grip, the more the shoulder joint is opened. This is especially true if the elbows are flared outward at the bottom of the lift. While this will provide more direct muscular stress on the shoulders and the pec's, it will also place the lifter at greater risk of injury.
Also, the wider the grip, the more the shoulder joint is opened. This is especially true if the elbows are flared outward at the bottom of the lift. While this will provide more direct muscular stress on the shoulders and the pec's, it will also place the lifter at greater risk of injury.
Would it be fair to say that benching isn't really that healthy a movement then??
I mean, if we have to isolate such small muscles because of benching....
Do you see what I'm saying? Some people on another board were mentioning this, I just wanted to know your opinion.
Mel Siff also posted concerning rotator cuff training NOT being important. Would you like to read the post?
ANy comments are appreciated, thx,
-ZUlu
I mean, if we have to isolate such small muscles because of benching....
Do you see what I'm saying? Some people on another board were mentioning this, I just wanted to know your opinion.
Mel Siff also posted concerning rotator cuff training NOT being important. Would you like to read the post?
ANy comments are appreciated, thx,
-ZUlu
erickthegreat11
New member
I think that shoulders play a huge role. If you all can remember the first time you started free weight benching, you probably couldn't press much because your shoulders weren't strong enough to stabilize a lot of weight. When I get up to a maximum weight I can bench, I can feel it in my shoulders. I'm thinking I need to focus more on shoulders to increase the bench. My tris and lats are getting a lot stronger, but my wide bench max is at about a stand still. My shoulders have not gotten stronger though, so I tried inclines for the first time yesterday, and I felt some "new" muscles. Got to 145#. Flat bench is 205#.
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Screwball
New member
Shoulders and Benching...
IMHO. Shoulders are extremely important to the execution of the bench press. I equate shoulders as the transition muscles in upper body pressing much as the abs, obliques, and lower back muscles are transition muscles between upper and lower body. If you neglect your core training then you will eventually pay the price whether it be injury or stalled strength gains. The same can be said about the shoulders when pressing with the upper body. The shoulders tranfer energy/power/strength from your chest/back to your triceps. You must train your shoulders.
Personally, I don't train my anterior delt head directly. The front delt gets plenty of work from any upper body pressing movement. However, the medial & posterior delt heads are another matter. I think these heads need to be hit directly in order to balance the shoulder capsule. Don't neglect these muscles, especially the rear delt head. I also feel that rotator work is important. I don't necessarily think that strengthening these small muscles will increase your bench press significantly but I do feel that you can increase the stability of the entire shoulder girdle and prevent injuries. The last thing you want is an imbalance in the shoulder girdle. This spells eventual disaster and injury. The shoulders get beat up pretty good from both upper & lower body movements so I think it best to use light to moderate weight and medium to high reps when training them.
- Screwball
IMHO. Shoulders are extremely important to the execution of the bench press. I equate shoulders as the transition muscles in upper body pressing much as the abs, obliques, and lower back muscles are transition muscles between upper and lower body. If you neglect your core training then you will eventually pay the price whether it be injury or stalled strength gains. The same can be said about the shoulders when pressing with the upper body. The shoulders tranfer energy/power/strength from your chest/back to your triceps. You must train your shoulders.
Personally, I don't train my anterior delt head directly. The front delt gets plenty of work from any upper body pressing movement. However, the medial & posterior delt heads are another matter. I think these heads need to be hit directly in order to balance the shoulder capsule. Don't neglect these muscles, especially the rear delt head. I also feel that rotator work is important. I don't necessarily think that strengthening these small muscles will increase your bench press significantly but I do feel that you can increase the stability of the entire shoulder girdle and prevent injuries. The last thing you want is an imbalance in the shoulder girdle. This spells eventual disaster and injury. The shoulders get beat up pretty good from both upper & lower body movements so I think it best to use light to moderate weight and medium to high reps when training them.
- Screwball
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brianmincher
New member
I train rear delts probably 4 times per week. I use a lot of bands wrapped around one of the power rack post for reverse fly's, and seated dumbell powercleans. Also, in my opinion rows will hit the rear delt as it works the whole upper back area.
B.
B.
Arioch
New member
I agree that the bench hits primarily the anterior deltoid. Again, this is why in the Westside program, the rear delts are given a great deal of attention.
And it is not that benching in itself is such a unhealthy movement, but rather that it specifically works certain muscle surrounding a joint, and the ones that do not get worked need development to avoid a muscle imbalance. Also, it is far easier to develop and work the internal rotators through heavy benching, where far more weight is being used, than the external rotators.
I seem to recall reading that post by Siff, but have not been paying as much attention to other things lately, so if you would post it here, I would appreciate it.
And it is not that benching in itself is such a unhealthy movement, but rather that it specifically works certain muscle surrounding a joint, and the ones that do not get worked need development to avoid a muscle imbalance. Also, it is far easier to develop and work the internal rotators through heavy benching, where far more weight is being used, than the external rotators.
I seem to recall reading that post by Siff, but have not been paying as much attention to other things lately, so if you would post it here, I would appreciate it.
Here it is. Any thoughts?
***While there may be the occasional need for isolated rotator cuff training
in rehabilitation or in rare cases where athletes may have some proven
deficiency in some shoulder muscles, there is no real need for this type of
exercise if one is using complex three-dimensional exercises in training.
Moreover, since isolated rotator cuff exercises done in the absence of other
shoulder exercises can cause other so-called functional or biomechanical
imbalances, their frequent use may lead to other problems. Remember that
overtraining injuries always tend to be more common in isolated exercises
where deliberate attempts are made to avoid load-sharing by other muscles and
soft tissues.
Though the rotator cuff muscles are important for certain important aspects
of shoulder stabilisation, several other shoulder muscles, such as the
deltoids, both sets of teres muscles also play a vital role in the dynamic
stabilisation of the shoulder, as is shown by a biomechanical or
kinesiological analysis of common upper extremity movements.
One example of shoulder exercises which offer integrated rotator cuff,
deltoid, bicep, latissimus and pectoralis movement are full range cable
crossovers (facing the cable machine) and reverse cable-crossovers (back
towards the hi-lo pulley machine), performed in a complex with one another.
The movements should begin at one extreme end and end at the opposote extreme
end, including marked trunk extension and flexion, as well as arms crossing
in front of the body.
By the way, any physical therapist reading this will immediately recognise
these cross-over movements as ones which are basically the same as the PNF
(Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation) patterns which PTs are taught for
shoulder rehabilitation, anyway. Therefore, it has always surprised me that
so many PTs prescribe isolated rotator cuff exercises when these PNF patterns
(and their three variations on each basic theme) actually contain these
isolated exercises, plus add a far more functional dimension to the action.
Snatch pull-throughs and overhead snatch squats also offer dynamic and static
strengthening of rotator cuff and other shoulder strengthening exercises.
However, I prefer to think of rotator cuff exercises as part of static and
dynamic shoulder strengthening and that this involves the interactive use of
several exercises, including forms of snatching and pressing (standing,
bench, declined and inclined), rowing, lat pulldowns, snatch and clean pulls,
push presses or jerks, and cable cross overs.
If any training program includes these types of multi-joint exercise, then
there is no real need for any isolated rotator cuff exercises. Interestingly,
I have worked with many thousands of athletes and casual gym users and never
had a single one experience any debilitating rotator cuff injury, despite
there having been many throwers, gymnasts, rowers, rugby players, tennis
players and cricketers and lifters among them.
That is no great tribute to anyone - it is just that their programs have been
multi-faceted enough to offer adequate strengthening of the most important
muscles needed in those folks' lives. Of course, I should mention that this
also has a great deal to do with the fact that individualised correctness of
technique was constantly taught and stressed.
As I have pointed out before, rotator cuff injuries are not necessarily a
consequence of rotator cuff muscle weaknesses or imbalances, but often due to
defective technique and timing of the production of force over the range of
movement. Quite simply, if your shoulder musculature is fit to execute a
given task to a given level in a given way, then any deviation from these
familiar conditions may result in injury. No amount of rotator cuff muscle
strength is going to prevent shoulder injuries caused by poor technique,
overtraining or stupidity.
-----------------
Dr Mel C Siff
Denver, USA
-Zulu
***While there may be the occasional need for isolated rotator cuff training
in rehabilitation or in rare cases where athletes may have some proven
deficiency in some shoulder muscles, there is no real need for this type of
exercise if one is using complex three-dimensional exercises in training.
Moreover, since isolated rotator cuff exercises done in the absence of other
shoulder exercises can cause other so-called functional or biomechanical
imbalances, their frequent use may lead to other problems. Remember that
overtraining injuries always tend to be more common in isolated exercises
where deliberate attempts are made to avoid load-sharing by other muscles and
soft tissues.
Though the rotator cuff muscles are important for certain important aspects
of shoulder stabilisation, several other shoulder muscles, such as the
deltoids, both sets of teres muscles also play a vital role in the dynamic
stabilisation of the shoulder, as is shown by a biomechanical or
kinesiological analysis of common upper extremity movements.
One example of shoulder exercises which offer integrated rotator cuff,
deltoid, bicep, latissimus and pectoralis movement are full range cable
crossovers (facing the cable machine) and reverse cable-crossovers (back
towards the hi-lo pulley machine), performed in a complex with one another.
The movements should begin at one extreme end and end at the opposote extreme
end, including marked trunk extension and flexion, as well as arms crossing
in front of the body.
By the way, any physical therapist reading this will immediately recognise
these cross-over movements as ones which are basically the same as the PNF
(Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation) patterns which PTs are taught for
shoulder rehabilitation, anyway. Therefore, it has always surprised me that
so many PTs prescribe isolated rotator cuff exercises when these PNF patterns
(and their three variations on each basic theme) actually contain these
isolated exercises, plus add a far more functional dimension to the action.
Snatch pull-throughs and overhead snatch squats also offer dynamic and static
strengthening of rotator cuff and other shoulder strengthening exercises.
However, I prefer to think of rotator cuff exercises as part of static and
dynamic shoulder strengthening and that this involves the interactive use of
several exercises, including forms of snatching and pressing (standing,
bench, declined and inclined), rowing, lat pulldowns, snatch and clean pulls,
push presses or jerks, and cable cross overs.
If any training program includes these types of multi-joint exercise, then
there is no real need for any isolated rotator cuff exercises. Interestingly,
I have worked with many thousands of athletes and casual gym users and never
had a single one experience any debilitating rotator cuff injury, despite
there having been many throwers, gymnasts, rowers, rugby players, tennis
players and cricketers and lifters among them.
That is no great tribute to anyone - it is just that their programs have been
multi-faceted enough to offer adequate strengthening of the most important
muscles needed in those folks' lives. Of course, I should mention that this
also has a great deal to do with the fact that individualised correctness of
technique was constantly taught and stressed.
As I have pointed out before, rotator cuff injuries are not necessarily a
consequence of rotator cuff muscle weaknesses or imbalances, but often due to
defective technique and timing of the production of force over the range of
movement. Quite simply, if your shoulder musculature is fit to execute a
given task to a given level in a given way, then any deviation from these
familiar conditions may result in injury. No amount of rotator cuff muscle
strength is going to prevent shoulder injuries caused by poor technique,
overtraining or stupidity.
-----------------
Dr Mel C Siff
Denver, USA
-Zulu
Arioch
New member
Note that the exercise that he recommends are rarely done by most people, with the exception of Olympic lifters and PL'ers training Westside. Face pulls are a variation of reverse cable crossovers, for our purposes, and serve much the same function, along with DB power cleans.
Please notice how his idea of a fully integrated training program, which is a very good idea, differs from what most people do, even most PL'ers, as the progressive overload method is still the most commonly used. This is used despite the number of shoulder injuries it produces, and the success of Westside Barbell Club, which is nothing short of incredible.
Please notice how his idea of a fully integrated training program, which is a very good idea, differs from what most people do, even most PL'ers, as the progressive overload method is still the most commonly used. This is used despite the number of shoulder injuries it produces, and the success of Westside Barbell Club, which is nothing short of incredible.
