arimidex for PCT???

[Nelson Montana]

This all begs the question of how Nelson wound up on TRT in the first place. Was it that he used hCG too much, too little or not at all? This is in no way meant to be an offense to Nelson. I think the answer to this may give us some valuable insight into the subject of steroid induced hypogonadism. [/QUOTE]

Glad you asked -- and I'd be happy to answer.

I went on HRT when I was 47 years old! This is the thing -- I see guys going on when they're 30 and I'm like "what the fuck?!"

47 is a good age no matter what. Most guys who never touch gear need it by then so I don't think gear use had anything to do with it. Then again, I did very low dose cycles.

I didn't use HCG for the first few cycles. Once I tried it, I saw that it would help me recover faster but I presumed (correctly) the recommended dosages were for women trying to get pregnant and that had nothing to do with me. I also realized that after a couple of hits, the balls came back, so why obliterate them? We didn't know back then about the ledig sensitivity but common sense tells you that the body develops a tolerance to any drug after a while.

I still use HCG (and HMG) every few months while on HRT because I believe it's best for the body to, at least attempt to, manufacture some T on its own. With only 100 mgs a week my T is usually around 800. And my FreeT is that of a 25 year old, but I sttribute that to the daily dosing of UNLEASHED.

Bottom line: Start with the least amount and go from there. It's always the safest and smartest bet. Unfortunately I see the opposite rule of thumb far too often.

 

[nydj66]

Nelson does have credibility here. I for one value his threads/posts. I think in this instance, we got off the same page a bit, and as he said "talked past each other".

What got lost in all of this was my original point. Nelson is an advocate of shorter cycles of say 7-8 weeks duration. Most bros stay on very suppressive cycles for much longer than this and leave themselves shut down for far too long before starting hCG. I feel that OTC with low-dose hCG and FSH can be used to simulate your own bodily functions and thus keep your body from "forgetting" how to make its own testosterone/sperm. What we both do agree on is that too much hCG can desensitize your testes to LH and make matters worse by further inducing hypogonadism, perhaps permanently. There is also the threat of suppressing, perhaps permanently, your body's own gonadotropin production. So, we have to walk a fine line here. I have been unable to find any/many formal studies on the concept of OTC, just a lot of theories, so this is something that we are on our own to experiment with. Seems no one has the balls (no pun intended) to use taxpayer's money to fund studies that may help us juicers. The standard dosing for male infertility puts administration at around 75iu twice a week and I would think thats a good place to start but I really can't say for sure.

This all begs the question of how Nelson wound up on TRT in the first place. Was it that he used hCG too much, too little or not at all? This is in no way meant to be an offense to Nelson. I think the answer to this may give us some valuable insight into the subject of steroid induced hypogonadism.

I agree with Nelson on recommending short cycles. It's much easier to recovery after 8 weeks of juicing compared to 12.

I also agree with centeroiler in that with longer cycles HCG should be used while on to maintain testicular function. I know from experience that 3 days of 500IU HCG would not recovery my testes after a 10 week cycle (maybe a 6 week but not a 10 week).

I found a study several years ago that looked at individuals that had been on TRT for 2 years or more, then went off because they wanted to father children. The study found that even after the HPTA was shut down for that long, the Hypothalamus and Pituitary were recovered after 3 weeks (LH and FSH levels were normal). But, it took an aditionanal 4 weeks after that for the testes to recover.

That tells me that the testes are the bottleneck in the recovery process. Logic tells me that if you never let the testes go dormant, they should recover testosterone production immediately after LH levels have normalized. Theoretically, this could mean full recovery in 3-4 weeks. Based on that I think 250IU HCG twice weekly is a cheap and safe insurance policy while on cycle.

Incidentally, I also like Dr. Swales advice of 250IU HCG twice weekly while on TRT. Although I used 500IU weekly to reduce the number of injections. I also add a small amount of letro to control the estrogen produced from the HCG.

If I skip the HCG, I notice testicular atrophy start in about 3 weeks.

 

[genetics]

Amazing info Especially well timed in my case a i'm just on the verge of starting a 16 weeker...definitely going to shoot the hcg @ 250ius every mon & fri from the 3rd week onwards...This thread has been a blessing.

 

[centeroiler]

Amazing info Especially well timed in my case a i'm just on the verge of starting a 16 weeker...definitely going to shoot the hcg @ 250ius every mon & fri from the 3rd week onwards...This thread has been a blessing.

Me too. I will report my findings as I use both hCG and FSH throughout and hope you do too. I'm hoping I come through relatively unscathed.