arimidex for PCT???

[centeroiler]

I disagree with the indiscriminate use of HCG. I believe it should be used when atrophy is detected. ( You don't want to have to fight too much to get the balls back in play.) But why use it if you don't need it? And why use it if you're going to shut yourself down again? It serves no purpose other than to make it less effective in the long run. Usually, 3 days of 500 iu's after a cycle is all you need. HCG cures nothing. It just gives a little head start to recovering on your own.

Nelson, I seem to recall a post where your cycles are typically no longer than 7-8 weeks. But, many people go on cycles much longer than this. I disagree with waiting until your testes atrophy, or until after a cycle to use hCG. Maybe on a short cycle this is okay, but letting your balls sit idle for any longer is asking for trouble IMO. There are all kinds of chemical and biological processes that are supposed to happen on a daily basis that aren't being performed during a suppressive cycle. The lack of proper functioning of these processes doesn't necessarily manifest itself in shrunken testicles. Damage could be happening long before it shows up with your balls being atrophied. It just makes sense to keep your system functioning as normally as is possible with the least disruption possible. The use of hCG puts your balls to work keeping your endogenous Testosterone flowing, and FSH keeps your sperm production happening just like nature intended. Low-dose On Cycle Therapy is the best way to protect your male sexual health and fertility. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. hCG isn't a cure, its preventive medicine.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Nelson, I seem to recall a post where your cycles are typically no longer than 7-8 weeks. But, many people go on cycles much longer than this. I disagree with waiting until your testes atrophy, or until after a cycle to use hCG. Maybe on a short cycle this is okay, but letting your balls sit idle for any longer is asking for trouble IMO. There are all kinds of chemical and biological processes that are supposed to happen on a daily basis that aren't being performed during a suppressive cycle. The lack of proper functioning of these processes doesn't necessarily manifest itself in shrunken testicles. Damage could be happening long before it shows up with your balls being atrophied. It just makes sense to keep your system functioning as normally as is possible with the least disruption possible. The use of hCG puts your balls to work keeping your endogenous Testosterone flowing, and FSH keeps your sperm production happening just like nature intended. Low-dose On Cycle Therapy is the best way to protect your male sexual health and fertility. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. hCG isn't a cure, its preventive medicine.

Your thinking is off base on a lot of levels.

First of all, atrophy is the symptom and HCG corrects it. If the symptom isn't there, the HCG has nothing to do. It doesn't prevent anything. That would be like taking cough medicine when you don't have a cough in order to prevent getting one. It is NOT a preventative procedure.

 

[centeroiler]

Your thinking is off base on a lot of levels.

First of all, atrophy is the symptom and HCG corrects it. If the symptom isn't there, the HCG has nothing to do. It doesn't prevent anything. That would be like taking cough medicine when you don't have a cough in order to prevent getting one. It is NOT a preventative procedure.

Atrophy is a process. It is a result. In fact, it is a direct result of the stoppage of all of the processes that are a daily natural occurance. Actually, your analogy is off base in that we aren't just waiting for that "cough", wondering IF it is going to come. We know the "cough" IS coming and there is something we can do about it. How is that not preventative?

 

[Nelson Montana]

Atrophy is a process. It is a result. In fact, it is a direct result of the stoppage of all of the processes that are a daily natural occurance. Actually, your analogy is off base in that we aren't just waiting for that "cough", wondering IF it is going to come. We know the "cough" IS coming and there is something we can do about it. How is that not preventative?

Because the drug doesn't prevent it. It treats it.

 

[centeroiler]

Because the drug doesn't prevent it. It treats it.

hCG doesn't prevent what? I we talking about the same thing here? Maybe its just a difference in semantics, but I'm saying that the use of hCG (or real LH) and FSH can help prevent, and treat, steroid induced hypogonadism.

Or, are you just saying that whether or not you use hCG we are doomed and our balls will shrink anyway?

 

[Nelson Montana]

hCG doesn't prevent what? I we talking about the same thing here? Maybe its just a difference in semantics, but I'm saying that the use of hCG (or real LH) and FSH can help prevent, and treat, steroid induced hypogonadism.

Or, are you just saying that whether or not you use hCG we are doomed and our balls will shrink anyway?

I think we are talking past each other. HCG treats hypogonadism but it's not like you're hypogonadal as soon as you start taking steroids. And if you use it too much it becomes ineffective so when you REALLy need it (after the cycle) it may not work as well.

I don't know how to make it any clearer than that.

These are all theories. You have to pick the one that makes the most sense to you. But don't pick the one that you just WANT to be the right one.

 

[nydj66]

bottom line is i took nelsons advice for a recent pct, ran aromison, and hcg and i bounced back awesome! i couldnt get the unleased and sustain imported over here so i can only imagine how good it would of been with them included

Bottom line is Nelson was a successful professional body builder so when it comes to practical advise he has all the credibility.

Then again, there's nothing wrong with a little friendly debate in the name of science.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Bottom line is Nelson was a successful professional body builder so when it comes to practical advise he has all the credibility.

Then again, there's nothing wrong with a little friendly debate in the name of science.

Well, never pro, but thanks. I have been bodybuilding since the 60's and involved with gear for over 15 years and have seen, heard, and done more than I care to remember sometimes.

And yeah, nothing wrong with a difference of opinion as long as it's presented with a perspective.

 

[centeroiler]

Bottom line is Nelson was a successful professional body builder so when it comes to practical advise he has all the credibility.

Then again, there's nothing wrong with a little friendly debate in the name of science.

Nelson does have credibility here. I for one value his threads/posts. I think in this instance, we got off the same page a bit, and as he said "talked past each other".

What got lost in all of this was my original point. Nelson is an advocate of shorter cycles of say 7-8 weeks duration. Most bros stay on very suppressive cycles for much longer than this and leave themselves shut down for far too long before starting hCG. I feel that OCT with low-dose hCG and FSH can be used to simulate your own bodily functions and thus keep your body from "forgetting" how to make its own testosterone/sperm. What we both do agree on is that too much hCG can desensitize your testes to LH and make matters worse by further inducing hypogonadism, perhaps permanently. There is also the threat of suppressing, perhaps permanently, your body's own gonadotropin production. So, we have to walk a fine line here. I have been unable to find any/many formal studies on the concept of OCT, just a lot of theories, so this is something that we are on our own to experiment with. Seems no one has the balls (no pun intended) to use taxpayer's money to fund studies that may help us juicers. The standard dosing for male infertility puts administration at around 75iu twice a week and I would think thats a good place to start but I really can't say for sure.

This all begs the question of how Nelson wound up on TRT in the first place. Was it that he used hCG too much, too little or not at all? This is in no way meant to be an offense to Nelson. I think the answer to this may give us some valuable insight into the subject of steroid induced hypogonadism.

 

[dmc777]

Anyone else like to chime in and give their thoughts? This is probably the most important and disputed subject for AAS.