are pain pills catabolic?

[test-monkey]

a friend of mine was in a car crash in Feb, luckly he wasn't badly hurt besides his knee which he has been on vicodin 7.5mg 3 times a day. his doctor is going to switch him to oxy 40mg once a day for a little while longer.

since his accident he has been out of the gym only one week, and since then he claims to be making no gains. he can't train legs because of his knee, but besides that his training and diet is right on.

he thinks he is getting smaller which he has lost ten pounds in the last month.

could this be the pills? I never thought opiates were catabolic?

 

[BrandonXJ]

I could be wrong on this, but from what I've read a lot of pain medicine will make the body release more cortisone in the bloodstream.. so yeah, if that is in fact the case I could see how they might not be helping him.

 

[matto18]

also, if i'm not mistaken, don't the heavy leg lifts (squats, deads, leg press) increase natty test & gh in the body by a significant amount? that could be a reason. he's not benefiting from those exercises anymore...

 

[Atomic Punk]

Being that Opiates release endorphins, I don't see any relationship between that & any type of catabolic state. What Opiates can & will do is, lower ones appetite, completely BLOCK a persons small intestinal track-I used to do alot of Opiates, and when I was really taking them I can tell you that there were literally weeks that went by, with me taking like one shit. If this person is taking a large amount of Vicodin, then the large amounts of APAP might be doing signifigant liver damage. Not to mention that it is a depressant, which would lower his workout volume & intensity signifigantly.

 

[Snarling Force]

I have always been told that pain meds will destroy any gains in the gym because they are anti-inflammatory and building muscle relys heavily on the tearing and breakdown of muscle tissue which an anti-inflammatory will totally hinder. Correct me if I'm wrong bros...

 

[Atomic Punk]

I have always been told that pain meds will destroy any gains in the gym because they are anti-inflammatory and building muscle relys heavily on the tearing and breakdown of muscle tissue which an anti-inflammatory will totally hinder. Correct me if I'm wrong bros...

We're talkin about Opaites, not anti-inflamatories.

 

[GoldenDelicious]

in general i dont really see them being catabolic. analgesics of all sorts are used extensively (dare i say heavily?) in the geriatric population, and they do not seem to suffer out of the ordinary weight loss or catabolism. (everything from paracetamol/acetominafen to morphine, and everything in between)

as mentioned above, opiates will slow movement of food through the gut, which will decrease your apetite (since it takes longer to digest food...your body thinks it is full more) and sure, you may get the usual changes in gut flora, changes in mineral/vitamin absorption (all to a small degree) and all that, but staright catabolism? nah, not really.

it may have something to do with decreasing workout quality, since central nervous system depressants will generally decrease muscle fiber activation, energy levels etc etc.

im sure someone will now post a study that say xyz chemical is increased by 300% blah blah blah therefore they actually enhance workouts and decrease protein synthesis etc, just bear in mind that this reply is qualitative, and reflects what i have seen in the community and around the place, incorperating a few basic principles of physiology. in other words, i could be wrong, aor made to look like im wrong. but analgesic use doesnt have anything about it that is glaringly important in the realm of metabolism.

cheers

 

[Atomic Punk]

in general i dont really see them being catabolic. analgesics of all sorts are used extensively (dare i say heavily?) in the geriatric population, and they do not seem to suffer out of the ordinary weight loss or catabolism. (everything from paracetamol/acetominafen to morphine, and everything in between)

as mentioned above, opiates will slow movement of food through the gut, which will decrease your apetite (since it takes longer to digest food...your body thinks it is full more) and sure, you may get the usual changes in gut flora, changes in mineral/vitamin absorption (all to a small degree) and all that, but staright catabolism? nah, not really.

it may have something to do with decreasing workout quality, since central nervous system depressants will generally decrease muscle fiber activation, energy levels etc etc.

im sure someone will now post a study that say xyz chemical is increased by 300% blah blah blah therefore they actually enhance workouts and decrease protein synthesis etc, just bear in mind that this reply is qualitative, and reflects what i have seen in the community and around the place, incorperating a few basic principles of physiology. in other words, i could be wrong, aor made to look like im wrong. but analgesic use doesnt have anything about it that is glaringly important in the realm of metabolism.

cheers

But everyone knows that pain pills are bad, right?!?! So they MUST cause these bad things to happen...because bad things cause bad things to happen. EVERYONE knows that.

You have just heard Atomic Punks version of what he considers to be most of Americas uneducated opinion about drugs in general.

 

[GoldenDelicious]

pain pills are bad

unless you mix them with beer

 

[GoldenDelicious]

note for the mad crowd: im joking about the beer

 

[test-monkey]

thanks for the replies, I knew opiates weren't catabolic but I wanted to make sure with you guys, I don't know what to tell my friend, maybe it's the tylonel in the vicodin?

 

[Atomic Punk]

thanks for the replies, I knew opiates weren't catabolic but I wanted to make sure with you guys, I don't know what to tell my friend, maybe it's the tylonel in the vicodin?

Like I stated previously, if he is reaching levels that some people can get to with Vicodin-I've heard of people taking 50 tabs per day for example-then it very well could be the Tylenol. Don't be too quick to dismiss that your boy is reaching these high levels either bro. Tolorance to Opiates happens FAST, especially in people who are in shape, with a high muscle/ lowbodyfat ratio.

If his Doc is switching him to Oxycontins, then he probably is getting too much APAP with the Vikes. Oxy's are straight Oxycodone without the APAP.

 

[test-monkey]

Like I stated previously, if he is reaching levels that some people can get to with Vicodin-I've heard of people taking 50 tabs per day for example-then it very well could be the Tylenol. Don't be too quick to dismiss that your boy is reaching these high levels either bro. Tolorance to Opiates happens FAST, especially in people who are in shape, with a high muscle/ lowbodyfat ratio.

If his Doc is switching him to Oxycontins, then he probably is getting too much APAP with the Vikes. Oxy's are straight Oxycodone without the APAP.

that is the reason his doctor is switching him to OC because his last blood test his liver value were starting to rise he has been on Vicodin for two and a half month.
he doesn't have a history of drug use and his perscription only cover enough for 3 vics a day, so he wouldn't be able to absue them if he wanted too.

 

[The_Eviscerator]

I know for a fact that Nubain (an injectable pain killer) reduces cortisol significantly, but I am not sure about all pain killers in general. Since Nubain is an Opiate as are most pain killers, I would assume most pain killers reduce cortisol to some degree. Although most oral painkillers are hell on the liver.

So... if anything, pain killers are most likely not catabolic.

 

[dali]

10 lbs is not alot at all especially if he hasn't been training legs. If I don't eat enough for a week I lose 10 lbs, so tell your buddy he's fine. Once he starts training his wheels again the weight will come back.

 

[The Terminator]

Anything positive with opiate usage is negated with all of its negative properties imo...

ITs definitely NOT something you want to get caught up too deeply in...

 

[_Yossarian_]

pain pills are bad

unless you mix them with beer

The only statement in this thread that is unequivocably true!!

 

[androjunkie]

Being that Opiates release endorphins, I don't see any relationship between that & any type of catabolic state. What Opiates can & will do is, lower ones appetite, completely BLOCK a persons small intestinal track-I used to do alot of Opiates, and when I was really taking them I can tell you that there were literally weeks that went by, with me taking like one shit. If this person is taking a large amount of Vicodin, then the large amounts of APAP might be doing signifigant liver damage. Not to mention that it is a depressant, which would lower his workout volume & intensity signifigantly.

I would have to agree with this. I am very much into pharmaceuticals and IMO I know a lot about them. I was also addicted to painkillers for five years so I became a bit of an expert on them especially. Opiate painkillers rob the body of essential nutrients. They also increase intestinal tone and make them(intestines) very sluggish, which is why you get constipated. They are a CNS depressant so they do suppress the appetite as well as making you less motivated in the gym. IMO opinion and in dealing a lot with opiates you should tell your friend NOT to take the oxy's they are extremely addictive. Even when you think you can handle it oxy's have a way of sneaking up on you. I have been off painkillers for a little over two years now and even in that time I have seen 3 hardcore bodybuilders(good friends of mine) fall into addiction because of taking oxy's recreationally. I know your friend very well need them and if he absolutely has to have them tell him to be careful. I have seen the bad side of opiates, and have been through some shit you wouldn't believe in that time because of misusing them. I lost my best friend recently to painkillers, he had the best(not the biggest) physique out of anybody I ever knew(he was 6'0" 250lbs 8% bodyfat) Over a six month period I watched him get stripped of a body that took him 10yrs of hard work to build despite my repeated warnings. Then one day he didn't show up to the gym or his job and I think you can fill in the blanks. Sorry for the long post but I just wanted to warn you. Not everybody gets addicted to painkillers but I've seen a lot of people fall into it. They are only catabolic because of the above medical reasons, I know a lot of people that take them for pain caused by gym injuries and when they take them for extended periods of time they do tend to lose weight. Also, if your friend is taking only 3 vicodin a day like he is supposed to and his liver enzymes are high then he either has an already damaged liver or he is taking something else because 2,250mgs of acetaminophen divided up daily isn't enough to make a healthy liver like that.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

Their is considerable evidence that opiates are catabolic (at the very least inhibiting anabolism)

Am J Physiol. 1997 Sep;273(3 Pt 2):R920-7. Related Articles, Links


Central opiate mu-receptor-mediated suppression of tissue protein synthesis.

Hashiguchi Y, Molina PE, Dorton S, McNurlan MA, Garlick PJ, Reddy D, Abumrad NN.

Department of Surgery, North Shore University Hospital, Manhasset 11030, USA.

We determined the dose-dependent effects of central mu-opioid receptor stimulation on rates of tissue protein synthesis. Chronically catheterized conscious rats received an intracerebroventricular injection of [D-Ala2, N-Me-Phe4,Gly5-ol]enkephalin (DAGO, 0.5, 2, or 8 nmol/rat) or water (5 microliters) 45 min before determination of protein synthesis by the flooding dose technique. DAGO produced a significant decrease in tissue protein synthesis in liver (57%), spleen (54%), gut mucosa (36%), gut serosa (23%), kidney (48%), gastrocnemius (33%), and plantaris muscle (27%), but it did not alter rates of protein synthesis in the brain, heart, and soleus muscle. DAGO produced an acute dose-dependent respiratory depression 30 min after intracerebroventricular injection; this depression resulted in acidosis, hypoxia, and hypercapnia (pH 7.19 +/- 0.04, arterial partial O2, pressure 44.2 +/- 3.4 Torr, arterial O2 saturation 65.3 +/- 5.5%, and PCO2 66.3 +/- 4.4 Torr). Intracerebroventricular DAGO increased circulating levels of catecholamines, corticosterone, and growth hormone but did not alter those of insulin and insulin-like growth factor I. Significant positive correlations between protein synthesis and pH were observed in the tissues studied (i.e., liver protein synthesis vs. pH, P < 0.0001, r = 0.902; gastrocnemius protein synthesis vs. pH, P < 0.0001, r = 0.830). Our results indicate that mu-receptor stimulation inhibits tissue protein synthesis, and this effect appears to be secondary to respiratory depression and the resulting acidosis and/or hypoxia. Furthermore, our findings suggest differential sensitivity in tissue response to alterations in pH, hypoxia, and stress hormone elevation.


also they have been shown to raise prolactin levels, particularly among older users.

 

[bicepts101]

when i had painkiller issues a few years back. i would notice that i would get hungry as shit. no appitite supression. and i lost all the weight i ever gained in the gym. i was like 170 as a senior in high school. freshman i was like 185-190.

one thing about pain killers, once you take them on a regular basis, you feel as if you have to take them to just feel normal, to work hard, to go out and have fun, to have the balls to talk to a girl. well for me at least thats what they did.

 

[test-monkey]

androjunkie thank you for that post, your right about his liver. the apap shouldn't raise them that much, I think his weekend drinking combined with the apap could be the cause of the raise in his liver enzymes.

bicepts101 it's funny that you say they make you hungry, because I have the same issue when I use them, they never cut my hunger

 

[Atomic Punk]

Biceps101, I understand where you are coming from. I used to use Heroin on a regular basis. You need(once addicted) to keep using, just to feel normal enough, or have enough friggin energy, to do all the things you described. I actually started with Nubain. Then onto Vikes, then Oxy's, then Heroin. Once you get to Heroin, there's no going back. You either chose to quit & get a life, or rob, cheat, steal, or even prostitute yourself to feed your habit. NOONE can work any job and be a smack addict, trust me! No job that requires you to be ontime anyhow.

It is a slippery slope. I met a SEVERAL people in detox, who ended up selling their kids Playstations, their Cars, ANYTHING they could get their hands on, to get Oxycontins. They originally got them from their Doctor for pain too, just like dude in the original post,

BE CAREFULL, and ONLY use then for what they are intended for-for when you have actual physical pain.

 

[JibbyJabba]

Biceps101, I understand where you are coming from. I used to use Heroin on a regular basis. You need(once addicted) to keep using, just to feel normal enough, or have enough friggin energy, to do all the things you described. I actually started with Nubain. Then onto Vikes, then Oxy's, then Heroin. Once you get to Heroin, there's no going back. You either chose to quit & get a life, or rob, cheat, steal, or even prostitute yourself to feed your habit. NOONE can work any job and be a smack addict, trust me! No job that requires you to be ontime anyhow.

It is a slippery slope. I met a SEVERAL people in detox, who ended up selling their kids Playstations, their Cars, ANYTHING they could get their hands on, to get Oxycontins. They originally got them from their Doctor for pain too, just like dude in the original post,

BE CAREFULL, and ONLY use then for what they are intended for-for when you have actual physical pain.

This sounds like me and Muscle Milk. Man I love that shit. I ain't scurred to blow a dude for some Muscle Milk.

JJ

 

[Atomic Punk]

This sounds like me and Muscle Milk. Man I love that shit. I ain't scurred to blow a dude for some Muscle Milk.

JJ

I never did that bro. I never sold my kids anything, or even my anything for that matter. I did spend my entire life-savings on the shit though, I will admit. But that's just money. Running out of it saved me to be honest. I'll never touch that shit again. I don't know if I could go through that again.

 

[JibbyJabba]

I never did that bro. I never sold my kids anything, or even my anything for that matter. I did spend my entire life-savings on the shit though, I will admit. But that's just money. Running out of it saved me to be honest. I'll never touch that shit again. I don't know if I could go through that again.

That's good... just be sure not to get mixed up with Muscle Milk. I go through like 2-3 containers of it a week. I'm not sure Heroin would be so bad after this addiction.

 

[test-monkey]

for all of you who posted about your problems and addiction whether it was in your past or present god bless you.
I know what it's like with opiated and have seen a ton of friend ruined their lives because of it.
if you chose to use for rec purpose or even medical the only advice I can give you is cycle, just like juice do take breaks and don't use for to much time straight, once your hooked and withdrawl is expericed your in a whole lot of shit
best advice is don't even start if you haven't used before. even a couple of percs on the weekend could and have led to being a herion addict. stay safe and train hard.

 

[Largepaws]

I know what your saying bicepts, ive been taking vicoden 750s for about 3 weeks now, up to 5-6 per day, now a day cant go buy where I dont feel like shit when not taking them.....need to get off quick