Androgel - What was the results? Worth it?

[jagerbombme]

Just started androgel. 50mg packet once a day. Anyone use this for a period of time? What was the results? Worth it? Should i try to get him to up it to 100mg ed? Help retain muscle while cutting?

i know that only 5mg absorbs ed also outta the 50. so you'd get 10mg per day with the 100mg packet or 2 50's. just wondering what peoples experiences were with this shit.

 

[halfcenturian]

Just started androgel. 50mg packet once a day. Anyone use this for a period of time? What was the results? Worth it? Should i try to get him to up it to 100mg ed? Help retain muscle while cutting?

i know that only 5mg absorbs ed also outta the 50. so you'd get 10mg per day with the 100mg packet or 2 50's. just wondering what peoples experiences were with this shit.

Androgel works, but you don't get enough Test. You need to inject to get the full effect.

So! Here is what you do. Use it for a few weeks. Then go back to(call) your doctor and tell him you REALLY like the way Test makes you feel!
"I feel 10 years younger!"
BUT...the Androgel is messy. It makes me break out. I just sweat it off.

Then (with a quizical look on your face) ask him if you could try injecting it.
With some good acting you will leave with a script for Test E or C

 

[PWTurbofan]

I was started on AndroGel last year...Could only take it for a couple months - it's a major pain in the ass. You can't take it if you're going to sweat or shower 2-3 hours after application, it drys out your skin, and you have to be careful as to not let it rub off on women/children within first couple hours of application.

I was prescribed the max dosage, which was 2 5g packets (50mg test each) per day. However, only about 10% of the test is absorbed, leading to a total effective dose of 70mg per week. My test levels were actually LOWER after AndroGel treatment than before I started.

After complaining, I was switched to test testosterone cypionate injections, 200mg ew.

IMO, AndroGel sucks. I would tell the doc that you'd prefer injection up-front, and save yourself the hassle.

 

[halfcenturian]

I was started on AndroGel last year...Could only take it for a couple months - it's a major pain in the ass. You can't take it if you're going to sweat or shower 2-3 hours after application, it drys out your skin, and you have to be careful as to not let it rub off on women/children within first couple hours of application.

I was prescribed the max dosage, which was 2 5g packets (50mg test each) per day. However, only about 10% of the test is absorbed, leading to a total effective dose of 70mg per week. My test levels were actually LOWER after AndroGel treatment than before I started.

After complaining, I was switched to test testosterone cypionate injections, 200mg ew.

IMO, AndroGel sucks. I would tell the doc that you'd prefer injection up-front, and save yourself the hassle.

AMEN !!!

 

[Harleymarleybone]

Just started androgel. 50mg packet once a day. Anyone use this for a period of time? What was the results? Worth it? Should i try to get him to up it to 100mg ed? Help retain muscle while cutting?

i know that only 5mg absorbs ed also outta the 50. so you'd get 10mg per day with the 100mg packet or 2 50's. just wondering what peoples experiences were with this shit.

Hey Jagerbombe. Long time no see. Like others are saying, try to convince your Doc you want injections. I'm on them now. You'll like them much better.

 

[Primordial Performance]

I was started on AndroGel last year...Could only take it for a couple months - it's a major pain in the ass. You can't take it if you're going to sweat or shower 2-3 hours after application, it drys out your skin, and you have to be careful as to not let it rub off on women/children within first couple hours of application.

I was prescribed the max dosage, which was 2 5g packets (50mg test each) per day. However, only about 10% of the test is absorbed, leading to a total effective dose of 70mg per week. My test levels were actually LOWER after AndroGel treatment than before I started.

After complaining, I was switched to test testosterone cypionate injections, 200mg ew.

IMO, AndroGel sucks. I would tell the doc that you'd prefer injection up-front, and save yourself the hassle.

Basicaly what he said ^

But it doesnt mean that all topicals are useless. You would see better results with Dermacrine, and spend alot less.

-Pp

 

[ksbst9mm]

i would agree androgel is a major pain in the ass..... i agree with what these guys have said

 

[jagerbombme]

fuck, my libido's went down in 2 days on this shit.

question. should i exfoliate before using it? should i use it on forearms rather than upper arms?

reason i ask is they say to use aifm on forearms for better absorption. thanks all

i will try to get the injections.

 

[Primordial Performance]

fuck, my libido's went down in 2 days on this shit.

question. should i exfoliate before using it? should i use it on forearms rather than upper arms?

reason i ask is they say to use aifm on forearms for better absorption. thanks all

i will try to get the injections.

Using androgel on your scrotal skin will give you the best absorption (by far) and the highest spike in sex drive because of the increased 5a-reductase activity in this area (DHT production)

-Pp

 

[PWTurbofan]

Using androgel on your scrotal skin will give you the best absorption (by far) and the highest spike in sex drive because of the increased 5a-reductase activity in this area (dihydrotestosterone production)

-Pp

Yep, when I used it, I applied it to my sack. BEWARE - it burns like a mofo!

 

[jagerbombme]

Yep, when I used it, I applied it to my sack. BEWARE - it burns like a mofo!

holy ffuck


did it work though?

 

[Para_Shoot]

My question is, if you only use a 2.5gram packet a day of androgel, will it stop natural test production or will it suppress natural test production a little bit?

 

[PWTurbofan]

holy ffuck


did it work though?

N'ah, not for me. My T levels before HRT were 390. After 6 weeks of AndroGel, I was at 310. And i was shutdown - L.H and F.S.H were zero. I was applying one packet to my upper arms, and one packet to my boys.

200mg test-cy.p ew raised my levels to over 600 (I can't remember the exact number).

 

[Primordial Performance]

My question is, if you only use a 2.5gram packet a day of androgel, will it stop natural test production or will it suppress natural test production a little bit?

Yeah, one packet will probably shut most guys down about 90%.

-Pp

 

[nemesis 2027]

Ok, here's my situation. After all the threads (and reality) on how lean things are now, trying to get a legal script, telling the Dr. what I really want to help me, based on the fact my total test is 310, I went in today and pleaded my case. He pulls out the PDR (physicians desk reference) book and we start to talk. He understood my concerns, but wasn't comfortable with any orals, and no injections unless I was under 240.

The best I could get from him was 5 gms androgel lotion (pump bottle I was told, script is at the pharm now) at 4 (1.25 gm) pumps per day. That's all he was comfortable with at this point, but I go in for a blood test in two months, and if it's still low, he'll up it to the max dose of 10 gms ed.

So now I get back to reading this thread and seeing that this stuff is shit. no good, etc.. He said it would "raise the test reasonably and improve the effectiveness of the test it is supplying" he also said that "it is not very suppressive if at all."

So my questions are:
*Why would it (androgel) be manufactured and prescribed for men (older in my case) with low test if it did not work?
*Does it work for some but not others?
*Is it more of a boost for long term therapy?
*Anyone have any other concrete studies or evidence that it is totally ineffective?

Thanks.

PS. The website he gave me to look up the manufactures guide and pharmacuetical info is pretty informative, and unless they are all full of shit, it seems like it will work for it's intended purpose.

 

[nemesis 2027]

N'ah, not for me. My T levels before HRT were 390. After 6 weeks of AndroGel, I was at 310. And i was shutdown - L.H and F.S.H were zero. I was applying one packet to my upper arms, and one packet to my boys.

200mg test-cy.p ew raised my levels to over 600 (I can't remember the exact number).

I was concerned after your post and honesty so I called the customer service people at 'Androgel' and explained 'the situation' (I called it a friends experience).

The c/s person said without knowing any other chemicals or supplements my friend had been using along with the androgel, that what you experienced was in fact normal. "Because it is a therapy for low natural test, it is to be ongoing, and the long lasting increase in test that aids in lean muscle mass production will not fully take place until 12 weeks of use and forward." This is not a short term use chem at all. Seems there is a cumulative effect to this stuff. "It has to balance out in your system before it's totally effective."
"If you stop the treatment you drop back down to your natural test level within 5 days."

I asked directly if it was suppressive and he said "not in most individuals" (kinda vague) but again he said "it is dependent on other chemicals or hormone levels in the person using it". He said of course on going blood work is also needed to accurately measure where a person is at with all related levels.

I also asked about genital application and was told "that may (sounded like will) greatly increase the risk of suppressive action." "It is not recommended and warned against applying in the genital area."

So just like so many other types of supps, gear, chems, etc.. it would appear that this has a definite place, but may not work for everyone the way that they want it too. I will be trying it, and will post results. I guess that's the only way I'll find out if it works for me. Hope this info helps.

 

[PWTurbofan]

Ok, here's my situation. After all the threads (and reality) on how lean things are now, trying to get a legal script, telling the Dr. what I really want to help me, based on the fact my total test is 310, I went in today and pleaded my case. He pulls out the PDR (physicians desk reference) book and we start to talk. He understood my concerns, but wasn't comfortable with any orals, and no injections unless I was under 240.

The best I could get from him was 5 gms androgel lotion (pump bottle I was told, script is at the pharm now) at 4 (1.25 gm) pumps per day. That's all he was comfortable with at this point, but I go in for a blood test in two months, and if it's still low, he'll up it to the max dose of 10 gms ed.

So now I get back to reading this thread and seeing that this stuff is shit. no good, etc.. He said it would "raise the test reasonably and improve the effectiveness of the test it is supplying" he also said that "it is not very suppressive if at all."

So my questions are:
*Why would it (androgel) be manufactured and prescribed for men (older in my case) with low test if it did not work?
*Does it work for some but not others?
*Is it more of a boost for long term therapy?
*Anyone have any other concrete studies or evidence that it is totally ineffective?

Thanks.

PS. The website he gave me to look up the manufactures guide and pharmacuetical info is pretty informative, and unless they are all full of shit, it seems like it will work for it's intended purpose.

I don't think AndroGel is ineffective as a drug in general. I know someone else on the gel, and his levels were raised to the 600s. For me, however, it just didn't work. My pre-HRT level of 390 was better than where I was after 6 weeks of the gel (310). Also, even on 200mg cy.p ew (the max dosage), my levels were only raised into the 600s. I've read where other guys taking 100mg injections are raised into the 800-1100 range.

The only way to know if it works for you is to try it and get bloodwork after 6-8 weeks.

Your doc's statement that AndroGel isn't suppressive is puzzling. For me, 10g of the gel everyday was totally (100%) suppressive after 6 weeks, as indicated by my L.H and F.S.H levels. I would think that as long as your body was capable of producing some testosterone, it is also capable of being shutdown with the introduction of exogenous T. In the end, however, suppression really shouldn't matter; you're really only suppressing a system that wasn't fully productive to begin with. In general, HRT is for life.

 

[nemesis 2027]

I don't think AndroGel is ineffective as a drug in general. I know someone else on the gel, and his levels were raised to the 600s. For me, however, it just didn't work. My pre-HRT level of 390 was better than where I was after 6 weeks of the gel (310). Also, even on 200mg cy.p ew (the max dosage), my levels were only raised into the 600s. I've read where other guys taking 100mg injections are raised into the 800-1100 range.

The only way to know if it works for you is to try it and get bloodwork after 6-8 weeks.

Your doc's statement that AndroGel isn't suppressive is puzzling. For me, 10g of the gel everyday was totally (100%) suppressive after 6 weeks, as indicated by my L.H and F.S.H levels. I would think that as long as your body was capable of producing some testosterone, it is also capable of being shutdown with the introduction of exogenous T. In the end, however, suppression really shouldn't matter; you're really only suppressing a system that wasn't fully productive to begin with. In general, HRT is for life.

No argument with that bro, I'm just stating what the DR. and the manufacturer told me about the suppressive nature. Like I mentioned, the Androgel c/s guy said "not in most individuals", but did not say all.

I totally agree that it is "HRT for life" and it is marketed as such. I am hopeful that I will get results like the other person you know in the 600 range, because that's all I would need to meet my percieved goals of building slow lean muscle and burning some fat along the way. If it's a life long treatment, so be it, and it beats the hell out of EAS or Twin Lab products..

But if it doesn't work, I think he'll be more open to something further.. At least the door is open at this point. Thanks for the info, and wish me luck!

 

[Primordial Performance]

So my questions are:

*Why would it (androgel) be manufactured and prescribed for men (older in my case) with low test if it did not work?

One 5gm tube “works” for getting most men into the very low normal range. In some cases, it can actually lower your testosterone level because it suppresses your body’s own production, without supplying enough T to bring levels up to what you maintain naturally. Most doctors find that men often need (2) 5gm tubes everyday in order to get T levels to a satisfactory high-normal range. (700-800ng/dl) At this point it becomes quite an expensive option if you don’t have insurance.

If your levels are already in the mid-normal range, and you simply want a T boost, then you should consider more natural options that will make your body produce more of its own T production, (ie. Derma Sustain) rather than just taking a low dose of testosterone. (which will basically replace your current levels unless you use enough to push you beyond your current point)

*Does it work for some but not others?

Right, it does work better for some men. Many factors can influence what ng/dl result you get from a tube of Androgel. IE. androgen metabolism, body temp, skin thickness, other drugs, skin permeability, ect.

*Is it more of a boost for long term therapy?

Actualy, it eventually becomes less effective because the skin builds a resistence to permeation. This mostly has to do with Androgel using a high concentration of alcohol which tends to dry the skin at a micro level… thus making it harder for hormones to pass the skin.

*Anyone have any other concrete studies or evidence that it is totally ineffective?

Again, its not totally ineffective, but for what it is, it’s very overpriced. Testosterone, alcohol, and thickener cost pennies, yet the pharm companies sell each packet of this stuff for an outrageous $$$ amount. Men often notice more benefit from Dermacrine, and spend half as much.

-Pp

 

[PWTurbofan]

No argument with that bro, I'm just stating what the DR. and the manufacturer told me about the suppressive nature. Like I mentioned, the Androgel c/s guy said "not in most individuals", but did not say all.

I totally agree that it is "HRT for life" and it is marketed as such. I am hopeful that I will get results like the other person you know in the 600 range, because that's all I would need to meet my percieved goals of building slow lean muscle and burning some fat along the way. If it's a life long treatment, so be it, and it beats the hell out of EAS or Twin Lab products..

But if it doesn't work, I think he'll be more open to something further.. At least the door is open at this point. Thanks for the info, and wish me luck!

Definitely broly - good luck and keep us posted. In the end, guaranteed US pharma grade test is a good deal, especially if you can get insurance to foot the bill.

 

[nemesis 2027]

So my questions are:

*Why would it (androgel) be manufactured and prescribed for men (older in my case) with low test if it did not work?

One 5gm tube “works” for getting most men into the very low normal range. In some cases, it can actually lower your testosterone level because it suppresses your body’s own production, without supplying enough T to bring levels up to what you maintain naturally. Most doctors find that men often need (2) 5gm tubes everyday in order to get T levels to a satisfactory high-normal range. (700-800ng/dl) At this point it becomes quite an expensive option if you don’t have insurance.

If your levels are already in the mid-normal range, and you simply want a T boost, then you should consider more natural options that will make your body produce more of its own T production, (ie. Derma Sustain) rather than just taking a low dose of testosterone. (which will basically replace your current levels unless you use enough to push you beyond your current point)

*Does it work for some but not others?

Right, it does work better for some men. Many factors can influence what ng/dl result you get from a tube of Androgel. IE. androgen metabolism, body temp, skin thickness, other drugs, skin permeability, ect.

*Is it more of a boost for long term therapy?

Actualy, it eventually becomes less effective because the skin builds a resistence to permeation. This mostly has to do with Androgel using a high concentration of alcohol which tends to dry the skin at a micro level… thus making it harder for hormones to pass the skin.

*Anyone have any other concrete studies or evidence that it is totally ineffective?

Again, its not totally ineffective, but for what it is, it’s very overpriced. Testosterone, alcohol, and thickener cost pennies, yet the pharm companies sell each packet of this stuff for an outrageous $$$ amount. Men often notice more benefit from Dermacrine, and spend half as much.
-Pp

Thanks for the info PP, and you're right that I am fortunate enough to have good insurance. A one month supply is a copay of $50, and without insurance is $250 straight up. For two months I'll be giving it a try and see how it works, and if it doesn't help, at least that gives me more ammo to get 'improved therapy' even if I have to switch dr's.

Per our conversation I'll eventually try it with the Dermacine I just got from you. That should be a nice combo. Maybe I'll be the first "Gel Stacker"..

 

[njmuscleguy]

Ok, it's about time I stepped in and gave my 3 cents...

Androgel is effective for many, maybe even most guys, in raising their test levels substantially. Surprisingly, after having been put on androgel (4 pumps a day) for 4 weeks, I got my bloodwork back and my levels were in the 600 range.

However, there is no doubt that the method of application totally sucks. It's messy for sure. If you sweat alot like I do, you may as well not even put it on. You can't shower or get wet for hours after application. It's just not convenient for...well, for living life! Given all the crap going on in the media these days, it's worth starting off slow and "humoring" the doctor by playing dumb and taking the androgel... then after a month or so and you get your bloodwork, raise all the concerns that everyone's mentioned and he should be sympathetic. If not, simply go to another doctor. At least at that point you now have a history of low test and HRT. You tell the new doctor that the gel sort of made you feel better, but the application was just not feasible. Unfortunately, many general practitioners have little to no experience with HRT, let alone androgel or injectable test even.

I'm 33, I started off with androgel, it worked well enough. In fact, androgel has a tendancy to give you spontaneous wood. If not mistaken, I think it has to do with the fact that transdermal application of test is converted more to DHT, which leads to the boners. I applied it on upper arms and upper back, sometimes abdominal area. Never tried rubbin' it on the boys...yikes! Curious now though *grin*

I think the other benefit of androgel is more stable blood levels. That being said, it may not be enough to want to deal with the messy application (it wasn't for me). I'm on inject test cyp now, 100mg/wk. It's only been a couple months and we'll see how bloodwork turns out next month.

Good luck!

 

[nemesis 2027]

Definitely broly - good luck and keep us posted. In the end, guaranteed US pharma grade test is a good deal, especially if you can get insurance to foot the bill.

Thanks bro, I hope it does the trick, and who knows, maybe if this doesn't work I can move up to the "US pharma grade test" you mentioned. At least I'll have proof that I'm deemed upgradable.

 

[nemesis 2027]

Ok, it's about time I stepped in and gave my 3 cents...

Androgel is effective for many, maybe even most guys, in raising their test levels substantially. Surprisingly, after having been put on androgel (4 pumps a day) for 4 weeks, I got my bloodwork back and my levels were in the 600 range.

However, there is no doubt that the method of application totally sucks. It's messy for sure. If you sweat alot like I do, you may as well not even put it on. You can't shower or get wet for hours after application. It's just not convenient for...well, for living life! Given all the crap going on in the media these days, it's worth starting off slow and "humoring" the doctor by playing dumb and taking the androgel... then after a month or so and you get your bloodwork, raise all the concerns that everyone's mentioned and he should be sympathetic. If not, simply go to another doctor. At least at that point you now have a history of low test and HRT. You tell the new doctor that the gel sort of made you feel better, but the application was just not feasible. Unfortunately, many general practitioners have little to no experience with HRT, let alone androgel or injectable test even.

I'm 33, I started off with androgel, it worked well enough. In fact, androgel has a tendancy to give you spontaneous wood. If not mistaken, I think it has to do with the fact that transdermal application of test is converted more to dihydrotestosterone, which leads to the boners. I applied it on upper arms and upper back, sometimes abdominal area. Never tried rubbin' it on the boys...yikes! Curious now though *grin*

I think the other benefit of androgel is more stable blood levels. That being said, it may not be enough to want to deal with the messy application (it wasn't for me). I'm on inject test testosterone cypionate now, 100mg/wk. It's only been a couple months and we'll see how bloodwork turns out next month.

Good luck!

I hope I have similar results, and I am not looking forward to the mess it seems to be using it. As I have mentioned in numerous posts, I am really sensitive to most meds, so unless this is the exception I anticipate it will work for my specific needs. If it doesn't I'll be back on the Dr's doorstep looking for the real deal, but I will switch Dr's if I have too. I agree that if I have "documented history" that it didn't work for me, and I think that will be an 'edge' to move up the HRT/TRT ladder. I gotta start somewhere.

Thanks for the post bro, it is helpful.

 

[musclemom]

Find a doctor who understands male HRT. No one single therapy works across the board and not everyone responds well to topicals. My husband's been on t. replacement for over a year now, we started out with the cream, originally he responded really well, then his numbers started crashing, more cream, still crummy numbers.

His doctor said the next options are a) pellets or b) shots. We did research, we picked shots. A good doctor realizes there is more than one way to approach this problem, and one who understands HRT KNOWS that total test in the 300s is just a shitty way for a man to be living.

 

[nemesis 2027]

Find a doctor who understands male HRT. No one single therapy works across the board and not everyone responds well to topicals. My husband's been on t. replacement for over a year now, we started out with the cream, originally he responded really well, then his numbers started crashing, more cream, still crummy numbers.

His doctor said the next options are a) pellets or b) shots. We did research, we picked shots. A good doctor realizes there is more than one way to approach this problem, and one who understands HRT KNOWS that total test in the 300s is just a shitty way for a man to be living.

That's what the plan is long term, but I had to start somewhere. Believe me that as conservative as he is, he did finally concede that after all this time in the low 300 range, he would start with the gel. This may just be a stepping stone similar to your hubby's situation. And yes, it is a shitty way to be living when I know I'm finally working out properly, consistantly, eating the best I have in my life, and my chronological age and biology are all but stopping any decent gains I am trying to earn.

I wish you were my doc musclemom, you'd crack that whip and get me what I need!

 

[jagerbombme]

well, it's off to the cardiologist for me. i've ran test 5X now and the fifth time 5mg per day of the gel and it still makes my heart go fucking goofy. 3rd day on the shit and my heart rate ran at about 160 for about 2 hours beating irregular the whole time. this is fucking bullshit. only thing i can think is my thyroid is sensitive to whats happening and is acting up. FUCK!@ I talk to tons and tons and tons of people on here and nothing like this happens to them but it happens every time to me. it scares the shit outta me. i didn't put the gel on this morning. fuck it. someone was saying they can do something to prevent the short circuiting to prevent the atrial fibs. i know it's what i had, i can feel my heart beating crazy but pulse doesn't reflect it. and then the pulse slowly comes up and then the ventricles get confused and beat irregular cause they don't know what the fuck the atriums doing. hehe. whatta fucking joke.

 

[njmuscleguy]

A good doctor realizes there is more than one way to approach this problem, and one who understands HRT KNOWS that total test in the 300s is just a shitty way for a man to be living.

Well said! The funny thing is, my doctor knew enough to tell me that he didn't know enough about HRT, so he referred to me an "expert", an endo in NYC. This endo ran bloodwork twice, saw that my levels were in the 200-300 range and said that was normal, and refused to put me on HRT. What a joke! If only his test would drop to that level for a week and have him see what it feels like! Bottom line, if you feel you qualify for HRT and you feel like crap, find a doctor that will listen!

 

[nemesis 2027]

well, it's off to the cardiologist for me. i've ran test 5X now and the fifth time 5mg per day of the gel and it still makes my heart go fucking goofy. 3rd day on the shit and my heart rate ran at about 160 for about 2 hours beating irregular the whole time. this is fucking bullshit. only thing i can think is my thyroid is sensitive to whats happening and is acting up. FUCK!@ I talk to tons and tons and tons of people on here and nothing like this happens to them but it happens every time to me. it scares the shit outta me. i didn't put the gel on this morning. fuck it. someone was saying they can do something to prevent the short circuiting to prevent the atrial fibs. i know it's what i had, i can feel my heart beating crazy but pulse doesn't reflect it. and then the pulse slowly comes up and then the ventricles get confused and beat irregular cause they don't know what the fuck the atriums doing. hehe. whatta fucking joke.

Sorry to hear that, and I can relate somewhat..
This was very similar to the effect d.bol had on me. My heart and BP went completely friggen off the wall. That's what I mean about my being sensitive to meds. I am praying that this gel shit doesn't do the same bad things, but I won't know until I try it. I pick it up after work today and will first apply it tomorrow. At least it's the weekend so any issues will not affect me at work, not that I am anticipating any..

I'll post my first expereinces with it in the next few days.

 

[musclemom]

well, it's off to the cardiologist for me. i've ran test 5X now and the fifth time 5mg per day of the gel and it still makes my heart go fucking goofy. 3rd day on the shit and my heart rate ran at about 160 for about 2 hours beating irregular the whole time. this is fucking bullshit. only thing i can think is my thyroid is sensitive to whats happening and is acting up. FUCK!@ I talk to tons and tons and tons of people on here and nothing like this happens to them but it happens every time to me. it scares the shit outta me. i didn't put the gel on this morning. fuck it. someone was saying they can do something to prevent the short circuiting to prevent the atrial fibs. i know it's what i had, i can feel my heart beating crazy but pulse doesn't reflect it. and then the pulse slowly comes up and then the ventricles get confused and beat irregular cause they don't know what the fuck the atriums doing. hehe. whatta fucking joke.

Weird ass shit started happening in the cardiac department for both my husband and I when we started supplementing with test. His HRT doc is a board certified cardiologist, too, so he's been through the whole cardiac stress test/nuclear testing and he's got a heart like a racehorse. I realized there was a dietary/supplement connection. As long as we don't take fish oil or coQ10 and eat a low fat diet we're fine.

Fucked if I know what's going on and it's got his doctor scratching his head too. There's a long history of cardiac disease in my family but husband's side, nada. It's definitely hormone mediated, but I don't believe conventional medicine understands enough about how hormones regulate bodily systems. Most doctors just don't get the concept of wholistic health (and I'm using the term to literally mean "as a whole system").

 

[njmuscleguy]

Weird ass shit started happening in the cardiac department for both my husband and I when we started supplementing with test. His HRT doc is a board certified cardiologist, too, so he's been through the whole cardiac stress test/nuclear testing and he's got a heart like a racehorse. I realized there was a dietary/supplement connection. As long as we don't take fish oil or coQ10 and eat a low fat diet we're fine.

Ok, now you got me concerned.... what does fish oil or coQ10 have to do with elevated heart-rate? I thought both were cardiovascular-supportive... the only warning that I know of with coQ10 is if you have low blood pressure to begin with. I've been taking fish oil forever... just started coq10 recently

 

[musclemom]

Ok, now you got me concerned.... what does fish oil or coQ10 have to do with elevated heart-rate? I thought both were cardiovascular-supportive... the only warning that I know of with coQ10 is if you have low blood pressure to begin with. I've been taking fish oil forever... just started coq10 recently

If you ever find out let me know, seriously. My instinct tells me it has something to do with EFA ratios and I think CoQ effects the EFAs (no proof, again, just a feeling). The other thing I've tumbled around is how cells utilize energy and the fact that testosterone has an effect on endurance, but I don't have enough knowledge to gel these ideas.

Don't fret, just if you get some weird fluttery feelings in your chest/heart or start to get unexpected tachycardia from exertion, drop the CoQ.

 

[jagerbombme]

If you ever find out let me know, seriously. My instinct tells me it has something to do with EFA ratios and I think CoQ effects the EFAs (no proof, again, just a feeling). The other thing I've tumbled around is how cells utilize energy and the fact that testosterone has an effect on endurance, but I don't have enough knowledge to gel these ideas.

Don't fret, just if you get some weird fluttery feelings in your chest/heart or start to get unexpected tachycardia from exertion, drop the CoQ.

OMFG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

first cycle test enanthate 500mg ew, var 80mg ed no fucking problems. i think when i came off that cycle is when i started taking fish oil.

second cycle was test prop/npp, was taking fish oil, all kinds of stomach problems, anxiety, felt like bp, and then the fluttering bullshit started. then it seemed i'd be fine here and there and then it would pop up again. this whole last time i was running it was doing it. i'm wondering now if it's fucking the friggin fishoil. SONOVA BITCH. thank god i posted this and thank god for you guys's knowledge. dropping the fish oil. will start the test in a couple days again and see what happens.

 

[jagerbombme]

Weird ass shit started happening in the cardiac department for both my husband and I when we started supplementing with test. His HRT doc is a board certified cardiologist, too, so he's been through the whole cardiac stress test/nuclear testing and he's got a heart like a racehorse. I realized there was a dietary/supplement connection. As long as we don't take fish oil or coQ10 and eat a low fat diet we're fine.

Fucked if I know what's going on and it's got his doctor scratching his head too. There's a long history of cardiac disease in my family but husband's side, nada. It's definitely hormone mediated, but I don't believe conventional medicine understands enough about how hormones regulate bodily systems. Most doctors just don't get the concept of wholistic health (and I'm using the term to literally mean "as a whole system").

so do you mean you must eat a lowfat diet, or you must not eat a lowfat diet?

it's just crazy that 5mg of test would cause my heart to go fucking nutso like that.

here's what happens to me, tell me if it's similair what happens to you.

first i'll feel like i can feel my heartbeat in my breaths. not hard to breath but can feel it like fluttering in my breath. then, i'll feel fluttering in my chest and i'll check my pulse and pulse feels normal. then the tachy kicks in and it starts racing and thats when the ventricular chambers start irregularly beating cause the atriums in such chaos it's trying to correct itself. what's weird is i took an aspirin and some oj and it stopped in 15 minutes. i was low carbing, but i don't believe it's low potassium or anything. it's just the screwiest shit. test isn't supposed to do this and isn't even listed as a side effect from it.


until you told me this i had few guesses as to what it was.

temporary diabetic state induced from the hormones.

bp spikes, but it happens when i'm completely calm and i can tell when my bp is up.

OR thyroid disfunction due to elevated t levels fucking up the thyroid, cause it seems like it's centered around when i eat which is also when i take fish oil.
now, it's happened when i've eaten alotta fatty meat before, it's also happened when i've eaten none, but shortly after taking fish oil.

drinking until good and buzzed on test also gives me tachycardia the whole fucking night. no fun. irregular beats, tachy, misery.

i hope that's what it is. man, whatta beautiful thing it would be.

 

[musclemom]

so do you mean you must eat a lowfat diet, or you must not eat a lowfat diet?

it's just crazy that 5mg of test would cause my heart to go fucking nutso like that.

here's what happens to me, tell me if it's similair what happens to you.

first i'll feel like i can feel my heartbeat in my breaths. not hard to breath but can feel it like fluttering in my breath. then, i'll feel fluttering in my chest and i'll check my pulse and pulse feels normal. then the tachy kicks in and it starts racing and thats when the ventricular chambers start irregularly beating cause the atriums in such chaos it's trying to correct itself. what's weird is i took an aspirin and some oj and it stopped in 15 minutes. i was low carbing, but i don't believe it's low potassium or anything. it's just the screwiest shit. test isn't supposed to do this and isn't even listed as a side effect from it.


until you told me this i had few guesses as to what it was.

temporary diabetic state induced from the hormones.

bp spikes, but it happens when i'm completely calm and i can tell when my bp is up.

OR thyroid disfunction due to elevated t levels fucking up the thyroid, cause it seems like it's centered around when i eat which is also when i take fish oil.
now, it's happened when i've eaten alotta fatty meat before, it's also happened when i've eaten none, but shortly after taking fish oil.

drinking until good and buzzed on test also gives me tachycardia the whole fucking night. no fun. irregular beats, tachy, misery.

i hope that's what it is. man, whatta beautiful thing it would be.

You want to be eating low fat (or "lower fat" the focus is on not adding any extra fats and maybe trying to stick to more white meats and avoiding high cholesterol shit like eggs and fried crap).

Anyway, the feeling I get is awfully similar to what you describe. Feels almost like I'm having a heart attack, seriously. If it's within an hour of when you're eating and you've been low carbing, particularly if you're trying to consciously change up your EFAs (and assuming the cardio docs are saying you're okay), I'd try cutting the fish oil out. I'm interested from a purely empirical viewpoint, but if you find your symptoms are go away then maybe we could get a couple of the people who are more smarter about hormones to start thinking about this, we may be onto something.

I get tachycardia from the weirdest shit plus another feeling, I don't know what it's called (you may even be describing it in your own way) the best way I can describe it is I'm ACUTELY aware of my heartbeat, it feels WAY too forceful (in a bad way). The term I use is that it feels like my heart is beating out of my chest. This was happening when I was playing around with my EFAs (trying to take in more flaxseed oil, plus fish oil and CoQ at bedtime). I get a very similar feeling if I drink NONorganic wines. It's not a sulfite allergy, because I can drink ANY type of organic wine. I've know I have chemical sensitivity (that's another health problem conventional docs laugh at) so there is some type of fertilizer or pesticide they use on regular grapes that sets off this reaction. I remember one night I had two mouthfuls of champagne at New Years just before bed I woke up an hour or two later with my heart going haywire, I took my pulse and it was 125, bear in mind, at the time I was doing regular serious cardio so that was almost twice what my resting heart rate was. I bring this up because you can get weird cardio shit going on with oddball allergies.

It COULD be your thyroid, but you'd generally have other things going on if your thyroid was going out of whack (you'd be too cold, or too hot, or your hands would shake or your hair would be falling out or you'd be getting fat or losing weight, shit like that).

As to the low dose of test, I take a LOT less than you, AND I'm a woman (estrogen is naturally cardio protective) so I'm not in the least bit surprised that 5 mg of test is causing problems. I don't think it's the amount of test, I think it's the age of the user (I think there's an enzyme or hormone or something we may not have as much of as we used to) and also the regularity of the use. People who are on HRT don't take breaks where they cycle off.

I wouldn't be tossing out ideas except for the fact you've got a relationship with a cardio doc and have been tested and have no answers, it allows for some creativity of thought that doesn't put your life at risk Normally you got weird heart shit going on it's "Get thee to the emergency room." But when you've done the stress tests and all that good shit and they're saying you're okay, and you're getting weird crap that has a pattern ... well, like Holmes said, "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

 

[jagerbombme]

i don't think it's the wine per say, as much as just the alcohol irritating you. sometimes it does it to me when i drink, sometimes it don't. i donno. i'm gonna quit the supplements for a while. just gonna take a b complex vitamin for energy. after i eat and when it happens though, as you say, my body heat goes way up. i feel like i'm in a sauna. it's crazy. and then my heart does that shit. and yes, i'm very aware of the heartbeat. yes it feels like it's beating outta my chest. i wore a holter monitor and my average bpm i think is like 55 and alotta the time it's under 50bpm. i'm 31, male, 18 percent bodyfat. i can elevate my heartrate to 160 and keep it there as long as i want. well lets just say i can keep it there for 30 minutes with no problem. the only problem is the time i dedicate to cardio. i hit it on average 4X per week ranging from 15 minutes to 30 minutes. i do cardio in morning on empty stomach on weekends. i know my bf is high but i'm in decent shape. everyone at my work thinks im in excellent shape. maybe to the norm, but here i'm outta shape, hehe. but i'm trying to cut.

is there an anabolic that you know of that doesn't do this to you. for instance i want to run Primobolan - methenolone - , could i run Primobolan - methenolone - alone and not worry about this? or NPP - Nandrolone PhenylPropionate - ? Anavar - oxandrolone - ? trenbolone?

ill tell you, igf did the same thing to me. Dianabol - methandrostenolone - and Turanabol did not however, i cannot live on Dianabol - methandrostenolone - and Turanabol. hehe. i'll be a walking heart attack quickly.

also, i've been to the ER like 10X for this. hehe, it freaks me the fuck out and i think i'm having a heart attack, ekg always shows good and they look puzzled at me and give me xanax.

 

[musclemom]

i don't think it's the wine per say, as much as just the alcohol irritating you. sometimes it does it to me when i drink, sometimes it don't. i donno. i'm gonna quit the supplements for a while. just gonna take a b complex vitamin for energy...

... also, i've been to the ER like 10X for this. hehe, it freaks me the fuck out and i think i'm having a heart attack, ekg always shows good and they look puzzled at me and give me xanax.

Just take a good multi and a good B and you should be golden.

As for the alcohol irritating me, oh, no I can assure you, I've basically spent the past week blotto on vacation, so it's not that. It's organic versus organic wine, seriously.

I'm NOT a steroid person, lots of better people to talk to about that stuff. I only know a teensy, tiny bit about how test. effects me and my husband and only on the HRT level, that's IT, and a little about female hormones in terms of perimenopausal stuff. I do know one thing, you need to figure out what's going on with your body before you do any more cycles. Give yourself 48 hours off the fish oil and see what happens. If you're still getting weird problems I strongly advise that you get a digital thermometer. The next episode take your temperature when it happens, if you're breaking 100 or more you probably need to go to the ER while the episode is happening, tell them you suspect thyroid problems, get them to record what your body is doing. If your body temp is actually going up then it's definitely metabolic, potentially thyroid.

 

[jagerbombme]

Just take a good multi and a good B and you should be golden.

As for the alcohol irritating me, oh, no I can assure you, I've basically spent the past week blotto on vacation, so it's not that. It's organic versus organic wine, seriously.

I'm NOT a steroid person, lots of better people to talk to about that stuff. I only know a teensy, tiny bit about how test. effects me and my husband and only on the HRT level, that's IT, and a little about female hormones in terms of perimenopausal stuff. I do know one thing, you need to figure out what's going on with your body before you do any more cycles. Give yourself 48 hours off the fish oil and see what happens. If you're still getting weird problems I strongly advise that you get a digital thermometer. The next episode take your temperature when it happens, if you're breaking 100 or more you probably need to go to the ER while the episode is happening, tell them you suspect thyroid problems, get them to record what your body is doing. If your body temp is actually going up then it's definitely metabolic, potentially thyroid.

i hear ya, it always quits before i get to the er though. it doesn't usually last long when it happens. i've read on atrial fib and atrial flutter. it says most people don't know they got it. it's weird when i'm off, sometimes i can check my pulse and it seems like it's doing it although i don't notice the hb's. however with elevated levels of Test, it's very very very noticable.

 

[jagerbombme]

i hear ya, it always quits before i get to the er though. it doesn't usually last long when it happens. i've read on atrial fib and atrial flutter. it says most people don't know they got it. it's weird when i'm off, sometimes i can check my pulse and it seems like it's doing it although i don't notice the hb's. however with elevated levels of Test, it's very very very noticable.

well, it happened again last night, went to er, they caught it. it's premature atrial contractions. said it's nothing to worry about and to see a cardiologist to see if they can remedy it. good news is i had them pull my cholesterol, and my cholesterol went from 185 two years ago to 169 this january, to 113 now with good diet

good cholesterol was 43, bad was 60. total 113 so i think i got 10 of that other kind. fucking awesome.

 

[musclemom]

well, it happened again last night, went to er, they caught it. it's premature atrial contractions. said it's nothing to worry about and to see a cardiologist to see if they can remedy it. good news is i had them pull my cholesterol, and my cholesterol went from 185 two years ago to 169 this january, to 113 now with good diet

good cholesterol was 43, bad was 60. total 113 so i think i got 10 of that other kind. fucking awesome.

Do I understand you to say your total cholesterol is 113, your LDL is 60 and HDL cholesterol is 43? Wow.

Okay, remember I said I'm no expert, and I'm just bouncing ideas but I wonder if it's the fact your levels are SO low ... hormones are transported by cholesterol. There were a few studies linking some anxiety problems and low cholesterol ... PACs (which is what you're having) have been linked to anxiety issues.

 

[jagerbombme]

Do I understand you to say your total cholesterol is 113, your LDL is 60 and HDL cholesterol is 43? Wow.

Okay, remember I said I'm no expert, and I'm just bouncing ideas but I wonder if it's the fact your levels are SO low ... hormones are transported by cholesterol. There were a few studies linking some anxiety problems and low cholesterol ... PACs (which is what you're having) have been linked to anxiety issues.

yes, total 113.

2 yrs ago 185
janurary 2007 160
this weekend 113

it's from cardio, and good diet.

i think i'm gonna get on some inject b12 or bcomplex. i am gonna go see a cardiologist. i do have anxiety. maybe this is all anxiety. maybe i just need a good anxiety medicine. i don't like xanax because it makes me tired and not want to do anything. maybe there's something that doesn't make you tired but keeps you chilled out?

 

[musclemom]

yes, total 113.

2 yrs ago 185
janurary 2007 160
this weekend 113

it's from cardio, and good diet.

i think i'm gonna get on some inject b12 or bcomplex. i am gonna go see a cardiologist. i do have anxiety. maybe this is all anxiety. maybe i just need a good anxiety medicine. i don't like xanax because it makes me tired and not want to do anything. maybe there's something that doesn't make you tired but keeps you chilled out?

B vitamins can help if you think you may be deficient. I've found some herbal supplements but you can't take it constantly. If you're constantly anxious (and never used to be) there has to be a cause.

As to your cholesterol, like I said, that is a dramatic drop, in fact that is EXTREMELY low. Honestly, I'm not criticizing, I'm astounded at what you've done, but I'm seriously wondering if your cholesterol isn't too low, particularly since you're creating an increased demand for it when you run cycles (which may explain why you get more anxiety symptoms then). We actually need cholesterol in our bodies, it transports hormones. Only so much hormone can be transported on so much cholesterol so there might be a supply/demand problem going on.

But with levels as low as yours ... don't take my word for it, I'm not making this up, look (and this article is just an example):

http://www.ctds.info/low_cholesterol.html

Just google "low cholesterol" and anxiety, you get gobs of hits.

If you don't have cardiac disease in your immediate family you don't need to maintain levels that low, and anything below 160 is considered extremely low. It's especially not good to have your LDL as low as it is, believe it or not, it sort of defeats having overall low numbers, anyway.

I know you were taking fish oil and I think you stopped it but you may want to try adding nuts or avocados or something. Just for shits and giggles before I'd go on an antianxiolytic I'd try to get my cholesterol numbers into a more normal range.

Short and sweet, Jager, our brains NEED fat, seriously.

 

[jagerbombme]

B vitamins can help if you think you may be deficient. I've found some herbal supplements but you can't take it constantly. If you're constantly anxious (and never used to be) there has to be a cause.

As to your cholesterol, like I said, that is a dramatic drop, in fact that is EXTREMELY low. Honestly, I'm not criticizing, I'm astounded at what you've done, but I'm seriously wondering if your cholesterol isn't too low, particularly since you're creating an increased demand for it when you run cycles (which may explain why you get more anxiety symptoms then). We actually need cholesterol in our bodies, it transports hormones. Only so much hormone can be transported on so much cholesterol so there might be a supply/demand problem going on.

But with levels as low as yours ... don't take my word for it, I'm not making this up, look (and this article is just an example):

http://www.ctds.info/low_cholesterol.html

Just google "low cholesterol" and anxiety, you get gobs of hits.

If you don't have cardiac disease in your immediate family you don't need to maintain levels that low, and anything below 160 is considered extremely low. It's especially not good to have your LDL as low as it is, believe it or not, it sort of defeats having overall low numbers, anyway.

I know you were taking fish oil and I think you stopped it but you may want to try adding nuts or avocados or something. Just for shits and giggles before I'd go on an antianxiolytic I'd try to get my cholesterol numbers into a more normal range.

Short and sweet, Jager, our brains NEED fat, seriously.

i see what your saying but i eat peanutbutter all the time, i eat peanut butter, red meat, eggs everyday. almonds, walnuts. i eat quite bit of fat. i donno. thanks, ill read that article.

 

[nemesis 2027]

I meant to post sooner than this, but I wasn't sure where to begin. It was a rough start and I'm finally settling into the stuff now. Started last Fri. 10/26 with 5 mgs (4 pumps daily). All I can say is OMFG.. I felt similar to jager with the racing heart rate, heartbeat felt in breathing, elevated bp, numbness and tingling in face, hands, arms and legs, hot sweats, cold sweats, and really thought I was being poisoned or something, but the worst feeling was uncontrollable anxiety which lead to 3 nearly sleepless nights. I tried to battle the nights with ambien, which actually made things worse.. I missed 1/2 day of work yesterday morning as I was really feeling like crap from head to toe. Not a good start for sure. Also balls were also feeling strange off and on during this time.

I couldn't believe I was such a wuss to get sides from a fricken low dose gel!!

Just when I was about to throw in the towel yesterday, I had read somewhere on the net about others who had similar starts with the gel, and that it took up to a week until their bodies "balanced out". I also read what musclemom had written about the cholesteral transporting hormones, and I tried a friggen crazy experiment last night. I had been on a fairly low fat diet the last couple of months, and decided to shake things up last night by eating one of my old favorite late night snacks, tostitos chips with1/3 lb shredded melted cojack cheese and a bowl of salsa. I also threw in my xanax (script) to lower the anxiety, and avoided the sleep meds.. It worked for the most part.. Just like in the past (when I ate similar most every night) I was nodding off about 30 mins after eating that 'little' snack. I didn't quite make it all night without waking, but it was 200 % better than the last 3 nights prior.

Now, today I am feeling much better and the symptoms/sides have subsided greatly. Not gone entirely but far more tolerable. I don't honestly know if the crazy snack experiment did it, or if it was just the timing of my chemistry 'normalizing', but I cannot eat like that every night, or even any more, and meet my goals.. lol

Anyway, I'll be staying the course with the gel, and get blood work done in about 5 weeks from now. That's what the Dr. asked for. At that point I'll see if this is working for me, and if I plan to continue with it, or try and upgrade with test injects.

If this is working at getting my test in the 'upper' normal levels, I'll be considering adding short cycles of d.bol, or longer cycles of V.ar to see what effect that may have with strength increases, or mass or lean muscle gains.

This has been a good thread with a lot of great info. It 'helped' got me through the 3 days and nights of hell, and I for one am grateful there are so many helpful people on this forum.

 

[MillionBillion]

Using androgel on your scrotal skin will give you the best absorption (by far) and the highest spike in sex drive because of the increased 5a-reductase activity in this area (DHT production)

-Pp

You're rubbing it on your balls?