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Ahh.. what to do now..

Lestat

Lestat

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This is going to be a long post, with a lot of different focuses.

First off, I must say, 80% of everything I know about lifting weights, bodybuilding, diet, etc.. I learned from my friends here at EF. I am very proud to be a part of this board and really owe a lot of where I am at today to this board. This is why I look to you guys (and women) for advice and help when I need it (which seems to be a lot).

So first, my background.

I started college in 1995 and worked out for the 2nd time then. The first time was in college during the track and field off season where I remember doing incline bench with JUST the bar to failure.. unfortunately all of my friends who trained with me then still remember that to this day.

In college I tried working out with a couple of guys that did regularly. They were lean with decent builds.. but I had no clue what I was doing, I was not consistent, and I had no idea what to eat. Needless to say the working out I did between 1995 and 2000 was sporatic, near worthless, and didn't get me any muscle gains or development. I probably only worked out 12 times over those 5 years. So basically what I am saying is that doesn't really count.

So in 2000 I started running competatively again, but I also started throwing in some weekly chest and bi workouts. I had a limited home gym so that was all I really did. I did that for about a year and did see some decent results. Muscle toneness... I had a chest, although small, but I had one. My arms were a little defined. I was benching 3-4 sets with 85-105lbs. My max was 1 rep of 135.. I had to work up to this... It actually took me a long time before I could do 135 once.

Then in March 2001, around the time I joined this site, I started really hitting it hard, developing a routine. My running pretty much stopped July 2001.. and from then on it was all weights.

I am 6'2", I was 165lbs with about 4-5% bf in July 2001. The running had basically burned every ounce of fat off me.

My weight gain came quickly. By February 2002 I was 190lbs. Unknown bodyfat.

By October 2002 I was up to 210lbs. My waist had gone from a 34 to a really tight 36.. I was outgrowing my pants. I looked big all over. I was told my ass was so large it was out of proportion with my body. My highest weight reached was 213lbs.

Starting in December 2002 I cleaned up my diet a bit. During that month I lost 10lbs. Starting January 2003 I dieted harcore. Used NYC and Yohimburn and added in regular cardio. I went from 200lbs @ 14%bf to 189lbs at about 8.5%bf.

That is basically where I am at today. The thing is, my strength has been relatively the same since October 2002. I have done one rep of 225 now. September 27th 2002. But now, after all of the dieting, I can't even get that up once. Along with the fat loss, I lost a little muscle and stength.

So today I am just over 190lbs.. less then 10% bodyfat.. defined abs.. but some love handles.

I feel like I am stuck in a plateau that I can't get out of. Here is my current split.

Monday - Chest and Bis
Flat bench - 1-2 warmups 2 heavy working sets of 6-8 repts
Incline Dumbells - 1-2 warmups 2 heavy working sets of 6-8 reps
Incline Straight bar OR decline straight bar - 1-2 warmups and 2 heavy working sets of 6-8 reps.

Straight bar standing bicep curs - 1-2 warmups and 2 heavy working sets.
Standing alternate dumbell curls - 1 warmup, 3 heavy working sets.
Dumbell Hammer curls - 2 heavy working sets, 1 warmup.

Tuesday - Legs
Smith SQUATS - 1 warmup - 3-4 heavy working sets.
Leg press machine - 1 warmup 3 heavy working sets
Leg extension - 3 working sets
Hamstring Curls - 3 working sets

Wednesday - OFF

Thursday - Back and Tris
PULL UPS - 4 sets as many as I can do
Wide grip pull down - 2 warmup, 2 working
Seated Row Machine - 1 warmup 3 working
Deadlifts - 2-4 working sets 1 warmup.
Sometime I throw in a bend over row

Triceps
Dips - 3 sets as many as I can do (usually 8-15 per set)
Tricept pushdown machine - 3 sets, 1 warmup
Rope pull down - 3-4 working sets

Friday - Shoulders
Dumbell shoulder press - 1 warmup, 3 working
Seated Military Press on the Smitt - 1 warmup 3 working
Dumbell Shrugs - 1 warmup, 2 working
Straight bar shrugs on the smith 3-4 working sets
sometimes I throw in upright rows


So that is basically it in a nutshell.

From time to time I mix it up with a superset. or I will work in with this big guy at my gym who does a really high volume, short rest period training session. I am an ectomorph, he is an endomorph so our training styles differ. he does each body part 2 times per week and his workouts are 2 hours at a time. my workouts are about an hour at a time and I hit each body part once per week. I've talked to him about my plateau and he says if I keep doing what I am doing I'll never get big.. from what I have learned on here that is not true though.

As far as diet, I eat a lot of protein, not much fat except from fish and nuts, and my carbs are mostly complex, low sugars.

I'd like to bulk again, but without putting on a huge layer of fat and outgrowing my pants.

I'd appreciate any and all advice. Different perspectives always help.

I've haven't used any AS yet either.

Brian
 
i'm guessing that a large, fairly clean bulking diet would break most plateaus. how long have you been doing that split? sometiems you just gotta switch your training up/find what works..a couple guys here are trying dogcrapp's method, which seems promising. there's also the 5x5, etc
 
I would say your training needs a serious overhaul. Check out the DC sticky at the top of the page. Make sure to follow the diet as well as the training. You have a lot left in you as far as gains, I promise. I can help you personally with the program if you want, go ahead and PM me. If I'm not doing DC I'm doing hardgainer/HIT style training. Read this excellent post by realgains: HERE

The root of the problem is your training, which is based around the usual 4 day split. While I'll admit it is lower volume than many I've seen, most people cannot train more than 3 days per week productively. For many people this becomes 2 days per week. I know this seems absurd, but most people have been directly or indirectly conditioned by bodybuilding mags to believe that this is the way to train. The focus should always be adding weight to the bar almost every week; this becomes extremely difficult when your body isn't recovered from doing too much volume.
 
Sounds like you have made some strides Lestat. Congrats on that. Lets focus on that! Use that as motivation for new goals and objectives.
No matter what training choice you make, make sure it is different to what you are currently doing. Compound exercises are always the same but the days you perform them are not. 5X5, DC, WSB, body building, sports specific training, powerlifting, etc....there are so many. Focus on your weak points along with rest and food.
About the guy @ the gym..."diff't strokes for diff't folks". Take everything with a grain of salt and be a sponge. We all have something to learn from one another.
 
Are you more concerned with gaining strength or size?

On the strength side, I'll defer to the powerlifting folks here for advice, but WSB is obviously very popular.

On the mass side, I'm a big fan of and have made good gains using HST. I, like you, was in a bit of a rut using a conventional split routine, I've been using HST for ~8 months now without anything even approaching a plateau.
 
What exactly is HST?

I am more into bodybuilding and mass, not so much powerlifting and strenght. I do what I do for mainly cosmetic reasons.
 
That's where the confusion lies. If you gain strength, you will gain size along with it. Most people on the DC program are breaking PRs every single session, ask Louden or bignate or others how they are doing...bignate put on 8 pounds in 3 weeks, for example...
 
So i can do to DC routine/method without paying for his personal training services right? Or are you just trying to sell me that?
 
Debaser said:
That's where the confusion lies. If you gain strength, you will gain size along with it. Most people on the DC program are breaking PRs every single session, ask Louden or bignate or others how they are doing...bignate put on 8 pounds in 3 weeks, for example...
Click to expand...

Strength does not always equate to size.
 
TheProject said:


Strength does not always equate to size.
Click to expand...

Call me ignorant, but i hear that all the time and it still baffles me. I can't see how a muscle can get stronger yet not larger.

Lestat, i have started using the 5x5 and it works. It has given me a new impetus in the gym and it's a great way to challenge yourself to lift heavier each time.

Give it a go.
 
So 5x5... 5 sets.. 5 reps... 2-3 minutes rest?

Is it just the 5 sets per bodypart.. or per exercise?
 
It's 5 sets per exercise for whichever compound exercise you pick as your first exercise for each bodypart.

There is a sticky on it on this page titled Needsize's 5x5.

I take 90 seconds between sets, except for deadlifts where i take 2 minutes.
 
vinylgroover said:
Call me ignorant, but i hear that all the time and it still baffles me. I can't see how a muscle can get stronger yet not larger.
Click to expand...

He's right though. Hypertrophy is going to be limited if you're not consuming above maintenance calories, for example. You can still get stronger though. Another example, in olympic and powerlifting they have low weight classes and these people are gaining strength despite maintaining their size. Its their goal :)
 
What is HST?
Click to expand...

HST is a program designed based on the way muscles have been observed to grow in the lab. Many other routines say they are "based on science" when really they're based on the imaginations of the people who came up with them. Such people might throw in a couple of scientific references to add validity, but before HST there has never been such a comprehensive muscle growth plan been created that addresses all aspects.

HST is custom-tailored to your goal: mass.

www.hsnhst.com. Click on the "HST" tab for a description of the plan, and check out the forums for details of people's results.
 
Been using DC for a little over a month now and my lifts have been steadily increasing as well as bodyweight. I had never used R/P before and it gives me crazy pumps - I love it! It sounds like you just need a change in workout anyway - check out the sticky posted on the board.
 
Originally posted by TheProject


Strength does not always equate to size.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Call me ignorant, but i hear that all the time and it still baffles me. I can't see how a muscle can get stronger yet not larger.

Lestat, i have started using the 5x5 and it works. It has given me a new impetus in the gym and it's a great way to challenge yourself to lift heavier each time.



i heard that again i get the funniest looks people laugha nd stare as soon as i walk into any gym anywere or eat anykind of food thats good for me or protein bars.

Then they actually see me work out! im 15 127lbs and bench 215 max i know its hard to belive! Then as soon as they see me do it the stop staring @ me! im like ye it dosent matter about size to me strength is all that matters!

I dont care if u weigh 300 pounds or 100 pounds its all about whats in you and your desire for what u do and love to do! Keep it up and u will bust through anythingf! Imo dont worry about a diet right now! fuck what people think about u go for it eat eat eat, the best is carbs do a carb up and go inot the gym with a positive attitude even if u get 230 up once thats all that counce is you got it!

KEEP IT UP!
 
Well, GENERALLY speaking, strength increases amount to size increases. If you eat enough food/protein, and don't do singles all the time, then you'll gain size. That's just how it is.

HST is also a worthwhile program. Both DC and HST are light-years ahead of 5x5 and volume training for mass, IMO. Actually, I still place 5x5 under the volume-training category, so that's somewhat redundant.

Here is how I would compare DC and HST.

-Both are good for mass gains. HST should theoretically be better, but in my experience and others that I know, DC has resulted in faster gains.

-DC is geared towards gaining strength quickly. HST not so much (though you will gain strength as well)

-DC is a bit simpler to follow.

So really, if you can put forth the effort, your strength and size will shoot up on DC faster than you'd probably believe.
 
Contrary to what the low volume fanatics will say, the 5x5 is an awesome routine. EVERYONE that I know who has tried it has made very, very impressive gains. Granted, I may not have given DC training the amount of time I should have, but with all things being equal I gained more strength off of the 5x5 then I did off of DC training, and my lifting partner and I followed both routines exaclty. And in fact, I had better recovery habits with DC training then I did with the 5x5 and still felt as though I made better progress on the 5x5. I know this is utter blasphemy for some of you, but Im just telling it as it is and as it happened to me and many others.

NOTE: Im not at all bagging on DC training, Im just giving the 5x5 the credit it deserves.
 
I love the 5x5. I plan to try DC afterwards.

By the way, Vinyl, you can increase in strength and not size from one thing I know -- CNS adaptation.
 
spatts said:
Perhaps you need to examine the difference between hypertrophy and hyperplasia.
Click to expand...

i dont even know what hyperplasia is yet. care to enlighten me? also, what IS the difference between the two? thanks..
 
One is growth by increasing the size of a fiber, the other is growth by creating MORE fibers. Some people have more of one type of fiber than another, and I believe that the routine a person "grows" best with is largely determined by that. For this cause, I believe this is why WSB and 5x5 lend such enormous strength and size....more variety, more fiber types hit.
 
Spatts: I remember that hyperplasia was addressed in the DC sticky, and some were saying that it isnt possible in humans, or that no studies have proved that it is possible in human beings. I searched the net and couldnt really come up with any decent material regarding hyperplasia. Do you know of any studies addressing hyperplasia? Thanks.

In the DC sticky (if you didnt read it) they were arguing about the extreme stretches inducing hyperplasia.
 
Last edited:
You're right...hyperplasia is not common.

I was just addressing the argument about size:strength ratios. You can get stronger without putting on much size if you are more dense on one fiber type than another.

This is why you see so many lifting records expressed in terms of strength to body weight ratios...and why it's so impressive.

TheProject, himself, is a great example. He's not fast twitch dense...and especially not in his lower body. He can lift as much as me, but his quads are almost 10 inches smaller than mine.

Over time, yes strength should technically lead to size, but there is more than one road to strength, and the variety therein can make all the difference.
 
vinylgroover said:


Call me ignorant, but i hear that all the time and it still baffles me. I can't see how a muscle can get stronger yet not larger.
Click to expand...

For heavy weights, such as those involved in a 1RM, when a PR is broken it is mostly due to increased efficiency of the CNS not actual hypertrophy. So Nasser El Sonbaty may be significantly larger than Chuck Vogelpohl, but Chuck can lift more than Nasser (in the 3 powerlifts at least). This is b/c of increased recruitment of motor units by the CNS.
 
I agree, for the most part...but don't forget that a motor "unit" is a muscle fiber AND a nerve.

Also, Chuck TRAINS for size, and strength, and speed, and GPP....WSB. When you're hitting every possible fiber type, it's hard to NOT get results. When you're doing EVERYTHING, something's going to happen.
 
Only trainees that use steroids experience hyperplasia to any significant degree.

To Debaser: Okay because you and a couple people have done both programs and grew better on DC, it must be better. How can you really make that conclusion? Seriously. I've read the DC stuff and you've been totally brainwashed by his pennies literature. How do you know you were eating correctly and performing HST correctly when you did it? Anyone who actually understands how muscles work either does HST or hasn't heard of it yet.

-casualbb
 
Originally posted by casualbb
Only trainees that use steroids experience hyperplasia to any significant degree.

Anyone who actually understands how muscles work either does HST or hasn't heard of it yet.

-casualbb


By making this statement you yourself are taking a Debaser-like approach and assuming that HST is the only way to train. That is the implication I derived from the above statement. I hope that isnt what you were getting at, and that I just mis-interpreted it.
 
I wanted to respond in kind. And no, it's not the only way to train.

There's strength training, and there's growth training. HST is the best of the latter.

I stand by that statement. No other program is based on how the muscles actually grow, just various tricks that people have found that for some reason make them grow perhaps a little more than certain other tricks.

-casualbb
 
Could you give me a link with information/support behind HST. I dont really want a program outline, I just want to read up on how this is the godsend for muscle hypertrophy. I just find it hard to believe that other programs are just "tricks" that work. I would really like to see some evidence supporting this type of training and how it is superior to other forms of "trick training". Thanks!
 
Because I don't think Haycock has all the answers. Science doesn't always have an answer for everything in the training world. He actually believes that for BULKING one should only have .8 to 1 g of protein per lb of bodyweight. Go ahead and argue this, but DC would probably just laugh, considering the amount of trainees he's had where he cut their carbs, set them to 2 times BW + protein (and thus equaling the same number of calories). I myself have experienced much better growth by using 1.5 to 2 times my BW.

My rationale for the great gains with the DC program:

1. We know that gaining strength results in gaining size, whether it's direct or indirect.

2. The frequency of DC is less than HST, but still greater than other programs.

So what if DC training makes up for the lack of frequency, by including additional size gains as a result of strength gains?
 
The frequency of DC is less than HST, but still greater than other programs.
Click to expand...

This is where DC training is really just a subset of HIT ideas. Up to a point, training more frequently results in more growth. That point is once every 36 hours. We know, medically, that 36 hours +/- a little is the time when growth triggered by training falls off. So when you train bodyparts once every 4 days, you spend at most 2 days growing and 2 days not. HST dictates that you train not according to fatigue but according to the actual growth timeframe of the muscles themselves.

So how can you possibly cite that as an example of why DC is better? I'd say that's an example of why it's worse.

-casualbb
 
BlkWS6: I'll provide an example. The factors governing mucle growth are
(1) Mechanical load. How much weight the fibers have to bear.
(2) Frequency. This dictates how much time a given muscle fiber spends in a state of growth.
(3) Muscle conditioning. This one is the most frequently overlooked. This refers to a buildup of connective tissue that shifts tension off the muscle fibers. This is why people plateau on programs; their muscles become "tough" so to speak, and resist loading. Taking time off reverses this effect.

(3) is why progressive resistance is so key. It allows an individual to continuously overcome the anti-growth conditioning because muscles condition in proportion to the load. In other words, (very simplified), when you lift 100 pounds, the tissue becomes conditioned to 100 pounds. Next time you should lift 105-110; lifting 100 won't cause growth.

A few programs such as DC and notably the 5x5 have hit upon this idea and thus well optimize one of the above factors. The 5x5 very much resembles any given volume training except for that progressive resistance; that is why it is so beloved and relatively effective. DC on the other hand mistakenly attributes the size gains to the strength gains made when in reality the strength gains have merely allowed the progressive load that actually caused the growth.

Let me actually take a moment to send some love to the 5x5. Granted the frequency is off, but it's the only other program I've seen that has people work below their max in a way that will help growth. The majority of stuff has people doing this and that to extreme failure, brainwashing people to think that you need 100% intensity for growth.

As to the research, I'll get to that later today as it's kinda late.

Let me apologize for being a little inflammatory earlier. Everybody thinks that they know the truth about what they're doing and if you'd have caught me a year ago I would've sworn by the stupid program I was doing at the time (SCT for all who've ever wondered. Oh boy was it bad.) I broke my personal oath of trying to always be positive.

-casualbb
 
Anyone with questions re: HST should read the HST FAQ Forum

What Bryan (HST's creator) has to say about DC:

DC/Doggcrapp method

DC's suggestions betray his strength training background. Methods based on fatigue/exhaustion (training to failure and rest/pause stuff) are really methods of increasing strength.

So in essence, he is shifting the emphasis towards strength gains. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that if that is your goal. All you have to do is induce more fatigue, and train less frequently.

Using a variety of exercise won't protect your tendons from injury. Using the same exercises doesn't increase your risk of injury either. Otherwise all Olympic lifters would be injured all the time. The variety thing is more an influence of BB mags. Although, if boredom is an issue, switch thigns up all your want, just make sure that the muscle is experiencing the same relative tension and demands across different exercises.

DC (I don't know him personally) is only one of many variations of HST that you will see in teh near future. Especially from more experienced lifters. Why? Because HST is true (so to speak). It isn't based on "tradition", a "style", "Russian secrets", or even an "opinion". HST is based on the way muscles actually grow in response to training. As a result, there will be a gradual yet natural shift of bodybuilding training styles towards HST.
 
Ok so say I want to give HST a try..

where do I start.. what do I do to setup a routine that I can follow for a few months? I've read the web site to some degree but it is still not entirely clear. Can someone break it down for me?
 
spatts said:
I agree, for the most part...but don't forget that a motor "unit" is a muscle fiber AND a nerve.

Also, Chuck TRAINS for size, and strength, and speed, and GPP....WSB. When you're hitting every possible fiber type, it's hard to NOT get results. When you're doing EVERYTHING, something's going to happen.
Click to expand...

Right, I was just trying to make the general point that muscular size does not always mean that you can lift more than a smaller individual. I do agree with your above statements as well.
 
casualbb said:


This is where DC training is really just a subset of HIT ideas. Up to a point, training more frequently results in more growth. That point is once every 36 hours. We know, medically, that 36 hours +/- a little is the time when growth triggered by training falls off. So when you train bodyparts once every 4 days, you spend at most 2 days growing and 2 days not. HST dictates that you train not according to fatigue but according to the actual growth timeframe of the muscles themselves.

So how can you possibly cite that as an example of why DC is better? I'd say that's an example of why it's worse.

-casualbb
Click to expand...

Well, first of all you totally neglected the protein issue. I mean, "We know, medically" that anything above 1 g/lb BW of protein will not facilitate gains, correct? Believe that if you want, but Haycock is W.R.O.N.G. about protein. And how do we know that after 36 hours growth is little to nonexistant? Is this an ironclad study? Or more scientific bullshit that doesn't apply? Since we're so heartily subscribing to "legitimate studies" I'll go ahead and buy a metric shitload of HMB too, I hear, according to medical studies it works wonders.

HST is a fine program, but I think DC works better. According to those that have tried both, and by comparing the results I've seen from both DC followers and HST followers, DC wins. I don't give a fuck if it's empyrical, or hearsay, because I've seen it PERSONALLY.
 
I know that size and strength are not interrelated, but can anyone here dispute that over time, an individual cannot hope to get stronger without an increase in muscle size or density whether that individual is a powerlifter, bodybuilder etc.......which is what i was getting at.

Spatts, how can you create more muscle fibres?
 
VG, size does lend to strength and strength to size...over time. How LONG the amount of time is largely based on genetics, and MANY other conditional factors. WSB has stength work, hypertrophy work, and speed work for a REASON. These guys don't strike me as the types to fart around with things that may or may not work. There are records being broken all the time.

The Repetition Method

The repetition method, otherwise known as the bodybuilding method, is the best method for the development of muscle hypertrophy (growth). This is the method in which all supplemental and accessory exercises are trained. This method is defined as "lifting a non-maximal load to failure." It's during the fatigued state when the muscles develop maximal force. According to this method, it's only during the final lifts that, because of fatigue, the maximal number of motor units are recruited. This system of training has a great influence on the development of muscle mass which is why it's become so popular among the bodybuilding population.

The fact that the final lifts are performed in a fatigued state makes this method less effective compared to the others when it comes to maximal strength development. This is one of the reasons why powerlifters are much stronger than bodybuilders. Another disadvantage of this method is that each set is carried to failure. This makes it very difficult to increase your volume and work capacity over time because of the amount of restoration needed. Training to failure is very hard on your ability to recover and in my opinion should only be used sparingly. When you extend a set to failure many times, the last few reps are performed with bad technique and this, of course, can lead to injuries.

Westside has modified this principle to what I refer to as the modified repetition method. With the modified version all sets should be stopped with the breakdown of technique and there should always be a rep or two left in you. Remember this principle is applied to all supplemental and accessory movements. These movements are designed to be exactly what they are: supplemental and accessory. The main goals of these movements are to complement the overall training program, not take away. By training to failure on every set you'd be taking away from the general purpose of the movements, which is to increase work capacity.

The parameters of this method are varied and depend upon the individual. Some athletes develop muscle mass with high reps and other with low reps. It would be crazy to assume one specific rep range works for everybody. What we've found to be best with supplemental and accessory work are sets in the range of 5 to 8 with repetitions between 6 and 15. This is a rather large range, but as I mentioned before, everybody is different. If you've been training for some time, I bet you have a better idea of what works for you than I could ever prescribe.
-Dave Tate
Click to expand...
 
Spatts,

I'm not debating about the why's and wherefore's of bodybuilding vs powerlifting or size vs strength.

I responded to Projects claim that you can get stronger without increasing muscle size.

Forget about bodybuilders for a second. Is it possible for a powerlifter to become stronger over time WITHOUT a commensurate increase in muscle size whether that increase is small or large.
 
Sorry, that post wasn't directed at you. I was just interjecting the WSB take on why hypertrophy range work may want to be included for a powerlifter.

Can a PLer become stronger WITHOUT ANY INCREASE over time? Doubt it. Never say never, but I've "never" seen it. There are alot of guys at PL meets that would just blow your mind with how frail they look, but they can move mountains. They're probably growing, just VERY, VERY slowly.
 
Well, first of all you totally neglected the protein issue. I mean, "We know, medically" that anything above 1 g/lb BW of protein will not facilitate gains, correct? Believe that if you want, but Haycock is W.R.O.N.G. about protein.
Click to expand...

Oh, okay, did you measure nitrogen excretion in urine? Did you slice them open and peek at the muscles to see what was actually happening? NO. So take advice from the people who did. I'm tired of this shit. It's so convenient that DC propagates the mindset of "Science isn't always right! Science doesn't really know how it works!" because it keep his own training from coming into question. Since DC and some of his steriodal BB clients got enormous from this program, "it works" and that overrides science.

I don't give a fuck if it's empyrical, or hearsay, because I've seen it PERSONALLY.
Click to expand...

I'm going to stop listening to you, because you're obviously irrational. That's the kind of attitude that had people in the 1800's thinking that BLOODLETTING was an effective way to treat illness. "She recovered, man! I swear!" Enough.

-casualbb
 
Most of the guys he trains are clean. He has cited many examples but just recently stated another one where a guy gained 35 lbs in 5 months, even doing intensive marine cardio. What you don't seem to understand is how COMMON these results are, if you read more of the threads on animal's board. I'm sorry, but if I hear, UNINANIMOUSLY "these are the best gains of my life" from MANY trainees then that's a routine I'm going to look at over a routine based on medical studies.

And you're missing the point. Whether or not science has dictated it, I myself have experienced greater gains with higher protein (SAME number of calories). Whether or not science agrees with HST, I have experienced greater gains with DC over HST. I can't explain it entirely. But, do you think I give a fuck? I'm making better gains, period. That's all that matters.
 
Debaser,

You don't care if science backs up DC's methods because they've worked for you and others you know. That's fine and I don't blame you, don't fix what ain't broke.

The point here is that the plural of anecdote is not data. I don't care how many people you know who've gained on DC's program. If I didn't understand and believe in the science behind HST's principles, it wouldn't matter how many people told me it worked for them either, I woudln't use it.

At this point in time, my goal is to maximize hypertrophy, without regard to strength. Based on my understanding of the human body and its response to training, HST is the way to go for me.

I'm glad DC is working for you and overall, at your age (you're failry young if memory serves), I think you're ahead of the game in how you look at training methods. You just need to remember that your way isn't always the right way.
 
The point here is that the plural of anecdote is not data.
Click to expand...

I couldn't have said it better.

If I didn't understand and believe in the science behind HST's principles, it wouldn't matter how many people told me it worked for them either, I woudln't use it.
Click to expand...

That's why I couldn't "try" another program to see if I would gain better than I am on HST; I don't believe in the underlying principles of any other program I've run across, DC included.

-casualbb
 
You also seem to be skirting the protein issue, so I'll ask you flat out: What is your diet like?

Anyway, why don't you just try the program for 8 weeks? I'll even supervise your program personally to make sure you're doing it exactly right. 8 weeks is nothing, I'd try almost any routine (not volume oriented) for 8 weeks to see what I got out of it. I mean, you'll make gains, and you'll finally know for yourself if they'll be greater than HST or not. It's time for some personal study.
 
Lestat said:
I've haven't used any AS yet either.
Click to expand...

Maybe it's time...

I don't want to be the big AS pusher here, but you've definitely done allot with your body naturally. A light cycle might be what you need to get you out of this slump.

My 2 cents,

-Ingram
 
Debaser:

Give me an 8 week routine and I'll try it..

if not I'm gonna fumble through the HST website and try to get a new routine put together.
 
Ingram said:


Maybe it's time...

I don't want to be the big AS pusher here, but you've definitely done allot with your body naturally. A light cycle might be what you need to get you out of this slump.

My 2 cents,

-Ingram
Click to expand...

I'm considering...

Just want to make sure I do everything right ya know.
 
This is going to be a long post, with a lot of different focuses.
Click to expand...

That's okay. I'm verbose, so I'll trade you one long post back :)

<mega-snip>
I feel like I am stuck in a plateau that I can't get out of. Here is my current split.

Monday - Chest and Bis
Flat bench - 1-2 warmups 2 heavy working sets of 6-8 repts
Incline Dumbells - 1-2 warmups 2 heavy working sets of 6-8 reps
Incline Straight bar OR decline straight bar - 1-2 warmups and 2 heavy working sets of 6-8 reps.
Click to expand...

Chest and biceps are a fair combo.

But right off the bat, I notice you're doing three pressing exercises. Why all three in one workout? 2 hard sets is okay, but all told, you're hitting six sets to failure.

Ditch the last exercise. Alternate flat bench with weighted dips, and try to cut your no. of hard sets in half at first. If that doesn't immediately yield good results, do only two failure sets total for pecs.

Straight bar standing bicep curs - 1-2 warmups and 2 heavy working sets.
Standing alternate dumbell curls - 1 warmup, 3 heavy working sets.
Dumbell Hammer curls - 2 heavy working sets, 1 warmup.
Click to expand...

Bigger muscles require more work than smaller ones. The biceps are smaller than pecs, yet you're doing 7 heavy sets for them. Do only two failure sets, one set of two different exercises (BB alternated with DBs each workout). Try incline hammer curls as your second exercise.

Tuesday - Legs
Smith SQUATS - 1 warmup - 3-4 heavy working sets.
Leg press machine - 1 warmup 3 heavy working sets
Leg extension - 3 working sets
Hamstring Curls - 3 working sets
Click to expand...

Way too much work. One hard set of squats, or leg presses for that matter, ought to leave you feeling like death. Do more warm-ups if need be, but only one top-end set of squats and leg presses, and don't do them both in the same workout.

Wednesday - OFF

Thursday - Back and Tris
PULL UPS - 4 sets as many as I can do
Click to expand...

No need. Do one at your absolute maximum, then rest-pause a few more reps out. Strive to add weight with a dip belt. And when you hit full-range failure, keep doing partials 'til you drop.

Wide grip pull down - 2 warmup, 2 working
Seated Row Machine - 1 warmup 3 working
Deadlifts - 2-4 working sets 1 warmup.
Sometime I throw in a bend over row
Click to expand...

Pulldowns and chins in one workout are superfluous IMO. Do only one--chins are better anyway.

Rows? 2 top-end sets at most. 1 very, very hard set would be better. Deads are similar, but warm up plenty (reps very low on these...add weight to the bar til you're close to your work set weight).

Triceps
Dips - 3 sets as many as I can do (usually 8-15 per set)
Tricept pushdown machine - 3 sets, 1 warmup
Rope pull down - 3-4 working sets
Click to expand...

Again, more sets for a small muscle than a big one. Noooooo! :)

One pushdown set and a maximum set of weighted dips are more than enough.

Also, I'd do triceps with shoulders rather than w/ back. If you nail your triceps very hard on Thurs., your Fri. pressing movements
might be compromised.

Friday - Shoulders
Dumbell shoulder press - 1 warmup, 3 working
Seated Military Press on the Smitt - 1 warmup 3 working
Dumbell Shrugs - 1 warmup, 2 working
Straight bar shrugs on the smith 3-4 working sets
sometimes I throw in upright rows
Click to expand...

2 sets of shrugs, 2 sets of overheads, and a quality set of cable laterals are all you need--probably more than you really need but plenty to do you for now.

From time to time I mix it up with a superset. or I will work in with this big guy at my gym who does a really high volume, short rest period training session. I am an ectomorph, he is an endomorph so our training styles differ. he does each body part 2 times per week and his workouts are 2 hours at a time. my workouts are about an hour at a time and I hit each body part once per week. I've talked to him about my plateau and he says if I keep doing what I am doing I'll never get big.. from what I have learned on here that is not true though.
Click to expand...

2 hours long? What a moron. How many grams of test is he shooting daily?

Ignore him at all costs. I got plenty big doing a LOT less work than you are right now.

As far as diet, I eat a lot of protein, not much fat except from fish and nuts, and my carbs are mostly complex, low sugars.

I'd like to bulk again, but without putting on a huge layer of fat and outgrowing my pants.

I'd appreciate any and all advice. Different perspectives always help.

I've haven't used any AS yet either.

Brian
Click to expand...

No need to worry about the drugs yet. And I wouldn't worry too much about your diet, especially your fat intake, so long as you nail down about 2.5 grams of protein per lb. of lean bodyweight.
You might be doing that already, so if that's the case, eat 50g more protein daily :)

Keeping your carbs low after sundown is a fair way to keep from gaining a lot of bodyfat. You're already eating the right kinds of carbs, so I doubt this will be the issue...and hey, if you put on 20 lbs. of muscle in three months, you won't cry in your beer if you put on 5 lbs. of fat with it, eh?
 
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