31, with the testosterone levels of a 50 year old. Help me weigh options.

[ikyn]

Hello Elite Fitness,

This is my first post. I have largely been a subscriber of r/fitness and r/weightroom, but they are not very gear friendly, and certainly don't like to entertain individual situations.

I'll be frank:

I need help.

I'm a active duty military guy who's in good athletic shape, and I always have been - but I look like crap. I'm determined to change this once and for all.

Stats: 195 lbs, 6'0" , Probably 18%-20% BF. 175 max Bench / 245 max squat / 245 max deadlift. Pretty pathetic, I know. That's why I'm here.

Testosterone levels:

Test: 204 ng/dL
Albumin: 4.6 g/dL
SHBG 16.83 nmol/L
Test Free/Total 52.15 pg/mL

I don't know if it's my low testosterone levels, or if it's my
Injuries: bilateral patellar tendonopathy. Minor left deltoid tear.


My goal is 175lbs. at ~13% BF. I'll do anything it takes. Use gear cycles, eat properly, do any program required.

I've quit drinking. I've quit smoking. I can quit being fat.

Anyone that could offer advice, I'd be much obliged. If there's a generous soul that wants to take me under their wing and monitor my progress, I'll find some way to pay you back.

 

[stevesmi]

I would give it time to change your lifestyle choices. and if you don't start feeling better I would consider HRT, but I wouldn't give up on things quite yet

 

[buddhabuilder]

Your best way forward is to come up with a challenging work out routine that does not irritate your injuries while you get your diet together. You want to have a solid muscular base before crossing the line to gear. This will give your body time to stregthen all the secondary things like joints and tendons, and help prevent negative sides like gyno. Also, by increasing your lean body mass you can naturally increase your Test level.

 

[MaxxReps]

I have low T as well and managed to get to 175 lbs / 10% BF with strict diet and workout regiment. At that point I had a real hard time putting on any more muscle or getting stronger and since then have taken the plunge into self administered TRT @ 200mg/ week test. I am slowly getting stronger and bigger again. The real upside here is that I developed the skills and discipline while natural to be able to get the most of my TRT.

 

[gymrat827]

start taking clomid @ 25mg and get a bottle of hcgenerate.....3/4 caps of that a day. both of those should bring your testosterone, LH and FSH numbers back up. It will help your mood, reduce any lethargy, boost libido, etc,etc.

from there its up to you to put in the work. Being a military guy you know nothing comes free, same with fatloss and muscle growth. I am not sure why your T numbers are so low, but the supps/serm will boost them for the shorter term. Your going to need to figure that out medically with a doc, endo, etc

id focus your training on 1 day of lifting, 1 day of cardio. so over the week you will have 2 or 3 workouts of each. Lifting days i would do a lower body one day, upper body the next. To break that up id toss in your cardio days. Mon- lift, tues-cardio, wed-off, thur-lift, fri-cardio, sat-off, sun-lift. and so on and so on.

 

[ikyn]

Your best way forward is to come up with a challenging work out routine that does not irritate your injuries while you get your diet together. You want to have a solid muscular base before crossing the line to gear. This will give your body time to stregthen all the secondary things like joints and tendons, and help prevent negative sides like gyno. Also, by increasing your lean body mass you can naturally increase your Test level.

I guess that's the real trouble I'm having. I'm doing all sorts of reading, and I have tons of ideas or cookie-cutter plans. but I start doing them, and it just aggravates the living crap out of my injuries. This is why I almost posted this in the personal trainer section, it's almost as if I need very specific 1 on 1 work.

I totally agree that I should have a better foundation before I hit up some gear. Thanks for your input though.

 

[ikyn]

start taking clomid @ 25mg and get a bottle of hcgenerate.....3/4 caps of that a day. both of those should bring your testosterone, LH and FSH numbers back up. It will help your mood, reduce any lethargy, boost libido, etc,etc.

from there its up to you to put in the work. Being a military guy you know nothing comes free, same with fatloss and muscle growth. I am not sure why your T numbers are so low, but the supps/serm will boost them for the shorter term. Your going to need to figure that out medically with a doc, endo, etc

id focus your training on 1 day of lifting, 1 day of cardio. so over the week you will have 2 or 3 workouts of each. Lifting days i would do a lower body one day, upper body the next. To break that up id toss in your cardio days. Mon- lift, tues-cardio, wed-off, thur-lift, fri-cardio, sat-off, sun-lift. and so on and so on.

Talked with doctors and endo - they basically said that I'm fine. Now I'm going to have to assume they mean I'm fine in the sense that I'll live a long healthy life if I want to remain perfectly average. They don't understand I want to become a ripped machine, and not have it take me into my 50's to get the results I want.

The endocrine doc said "Once you hit 30, your testosterone level just bottoms out. No getting around it".

Now I guess I need to figure out a good routine/diet around my injuries. I'm tempted to get a personal trainer, but I don't see my area being very rich in those. I need the kind of 1 one 1 attention to get around my injuries, and still attain my goals.

Lately, I've been keeping a diet of about 1500 calories a day. Just trying to go for straight fat loss, but I've lost a lot of my lifting strength in the process. Almost all of my routine is cardio and bodyweight training.

I'm more or less willing to start from scratch again, and I can maintain any diet. I just could use some guidance, I guess.

 

[jester72]

Talked with doctors and endo - they basically said that I'm fine. Now I'm going to have to assume they mean I'm fine in the sense that I'll live a long healthy life if I want to remain perfectly average. They don't understand I want to become a ripped machine, and not have it take me into my 50's to get the results I want.

The endocrine doc said "Once you hit 30, your testosterone level just bottoms out. No getting around it".

Now I guess I need to figure out a good routine/diet around my injuries. I'm tempted to get a personal trainer, but I don't see my area being very rich in those. I need the kind of 1 one 1 attention to get around my injuries, and still attain my goals.

Lately, I've been keeping a diet of about 1500 calories a day. Just trying to go for straight fat loss, but I've lost a lot of my lifting strength in the process. Almost all of my routine is cardio and bodyweight training.

I'm more or less willing to start from scratch again, and I can maintain any diet. I just could use some guidance, I guess.

That's complete and utter bullshit bro. A 204ng/dl test level at 30 is NOT normal, and is definitely below normal range. If your doc thinks this is "normal" and tells you to live with it, find a new doctor quickly!

 

[ikyn]

That's complete and utter bullshit bro. A 204ng/dl test level at 30 is NOT normal, and is definitely below normal range. If your doc thinks this is "normal" and tells you to live with it, find a new doctor quickly!

I've resigned myself to figuring this out myself. She said that since I'm not symptomatic, that I'm fine. I have a fair bit of fat on my body, and I'm currently cutting hard to bring that down. The problem is, I am losing all my strength gains in the process.

If you have suggestions of a routine that would work well for a cut, I'm all ears.

 

[musclemom]

Active duty, does that mean you're seeing military docs? They're not exactly renowned for their brilliance. Alternatively, they could be hesitant to even talk about testosterone supplementation because they might be leery of you artificially suppressing your own production. Frankly plenty of civilian doctors aren't exactly the most sympathetic when you're in your early 30s for that very reason so ... just putting that out there.

All you should do with the injuries you have is cardio and core work. If you try weight training anything above the waist you're going to aggravate the tendinopathy and worsen the delt tear. You need to see a good sports medicine doc and address those problems. Giving up drinking and especially smoking may help the tendons a bit just because you've improved your circulation, but you have musculoskeletal issues that aren't going to get better on their own, especially if your hormones aren't right.

 

[buddhabuilder]

I just had to change up my routine because I irritated my shoulder joints. The way to work with that type of injury is to find exercises that don't cause immediate discomfort/pain while doing them, and don't make it feel worse afterward. Take a very basic 3 or 4 day work out split and customize it using this approach. It will be a learning experience that you will benefit from in many ways. Keep your reps in the 10-12 range with strict form and a good squeeze at the full contraction point.

Don't worry about what the doctor says, just keep a work out journal and get your diet together.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Injury and stress can have a debilitating effect on T levels.

The first thing you should do is get rechecked. T levels fluctuate greatly.

DO NOT take clomid. It will only mask the symptoms and possibly make things worse.

It wouldn't hurt to use some UNLEASHED to get FREE T levels up.

Beyond that, give it time HRT may be an option down the road but at 30 you can probably spring back. I'd wait it out at least a year. Good luck.

 

[Zyglamail]

I've resigned myself to figuring this out myself. She said that since I'm not symptomatic, that I'm fine. I have a fair bit of fat on my body, and I'm currently cutting hard to bring that down. The problem is, I am losing all my strength gains in the process.

If you have suggestions of a routine that would work well for a cut, I'm all ears.

Sounds to me like subclinical hypothyroidism causing both your fat retention and low T. Start researching iodine/selenium supplementation.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Sounds to me like subclinical hypothyroidism causing both your fat retention and low T. Start researching iodine/selenium supplementation.

Could be, but a simple blood test would determine it.

 

[Zyglamail]

Could be, but a simple blood test would determine it.

And how would it do that? The whole point of subclinical is that you have tsh, T3 and T4 within range which at the end of the day doesnt mean shit.

 

[Nelson Montana]

And how would it do that? The whole point of subclinical is that you have tsh, T3 and T4 within range which at the end of the day doesnt mean shit.

You're taking about something like Hassimotos. That takes quite a bit of testing. At any rate that isn't something you can just guess at.

 

[Zyglamail]

You're taking about something like Hassimotos. That takes quite a bit of testing. At any rate that isn't something you can just guess at.

No im not talking about hashi's or greaves at all. Im talking about small in range reduction of thyroid hormone output which will have an impact on your whole body.

Just like having low in range test is not ideal and not normal for many people, they get some labs and are told by the doc "your in lab range so your fine". Even though they may exhibit many symptoms of low T. You push your natural test boosters because we all know a little more natural test production is a good thing and so is a little more natural output from your thyroid.

Poor thyroid function is well documented to affect other hormones in the body, including test. Poorly functioning thyroid is largely related to not having the proper nutrients to not only create thyroid hormones but also the enzyme (Iodothyronine deiodinases) for proper conversion or T4 to T3 as well as gluthiaone peroxidases to neutralize the hydrogen peroxide created from the conversion to prevent cell damage.

Knowing what your current T4, T3 is via labs has very little meaning if within range AND you dont have significant lab history to compare it to. Maybe your T3 is .5 lower than the previous year but without labs from then to compare to you wouldnt know and .5 drop may still be in range but can have a very dramatic effect on your whole body.

 

[Nelson Montana]

No im not talking about hashi's or greaves at all. Im talking about small in range reduction of thyroid hormone output which will have an impact on your whole body.

Just like having low in range test is not ideal and not normal for many people, they get some labs and are told by the doc "your in lab range so your fine". Even though they may exhibit many symptoms of low T. You push your natural test boosters because we all know a little more natural test production is a good thing and so is a little more natural output from your thyroid.

Poor thyroid function is well documented to affect other hormones in the body, including test. Poorly functioning thyroid is largely related to not having the proper nutrients to not only create thyroid hormones but also the enzyme (Iodothyronine deiodinases) for proper conversion or T4 to T3 as well as gluthiaone peroxidases to neutralize the hydrogen peroxide created from the conversion to prevent cell damage.

Knowing what your current T4, T3 is via labs has very little meaning if within range AND you dont have significant lab history to compare it to. Maybe your T3 is .5 lower than the previous year but without labs from then to compare to you wouldnt know and .5 drop may still be in range but can have a very dramatic effect on your whole body.

I'm fully aware of the implications and restrictions in testing since I suffer from fluctuating hypothyroidism. I also developed a thyroid supp (ZIP!) that helped a lot of people but it just wasn't something that people considered "important" so sales were low and it was discontinued. The TSH will give a basic reading but it isn't the ONLY thing that determines thyroid function and that's what most GP's will go by. Even some endos don;t go beyond that/ But I maintain, it's a tricky thing. The guy shouldn't just start taking T3. Iodine and Selenium can help. That should be the first thing. A lot of what guys think is low T is really low thyroid.

 

[Zyglamail]

I'm fully aware of the implications and restrictions in testing since I suffer from fluctuating hypothyroidism. I also developed a thyroid supp (ZIP!) that helped a lot of people but it just wasn't something that people considered "important" so sales were low and it was discontinued. The TSH will give a basic reading but it isn't the ONLY thing that determines thyroid function and that's what most GP's will go by. Even some endos don;t go beyond that/ But I maintain, it's a tricky thing. The guy shouldn't just start taking T3. Iodine and Selenium can help. That should be the first thing. A lot of what guys think is low T is really low thyroid.

I agree someone shouldnt start taking T3 or T4. Im against both for any reason(armour would be the solution for those that cant be helped by nutrition) and I wasnt proposing a person take either. I do promote giving your body the nutrients it needs for proper thyroid function and I think most of the folks here who claim to have a decent diet and workout who cant lose weight suffer from poor thyroid function.

I know a lot of docs simply look at TSH which in actuality isnt even as valuable as T4 or T3.

TSH not only stimulates thyroid hormone production but it also stimulates sodium-iodide symporter-NIS. Without ample NIS iodine wouldnt be able to enter the cells and be utilized.

When iodine levels are low there is also little reason to stimulate NIS. However once you add iodine its very common for TSH to rise significantly for many months which most docs panic when they see because they are clueless.

 

[ikyn]

I agree someone shouldnt start taking T3 or T4. Im against both for any reason(armour would be the solution for those that cant be helped by nutrition) and I wasnt proposing a person take either. I do promote giving your body the nutrients it needs for proper thyroid function and I think most of the folks here who claim to have a decent diet and workout who cant lose weight suffer from poor thyroid function.

I know a lot of docs simply look at TSH which in actuality isnt even as valuable as T4 or T3.

TSH not only stimulates thyroid hormone production but it also stimulates sodium-iodide symporter-NIS. Without ample NIS iodine wouldnt be able to enter the cells and be utilized.

When iodine levels are low there is also little reason to stimulate NIS. However once you add iodine its very common for TSH to rise significantly for many months which most docs panic when they see because they are clueless.

I actually have my latest numbers for all of this. One of the most frotunate things about my duty station is I work in medical, and can have any lab done at any time, for any reason.

TSH - 2.090 ng/dL
Thyroxine Free - 1.12 mcIU/mL
Triiodothyronine - 2.770 pg/mL

All normal. Yet I do feel sluggish and tired quite often, for no reason (well maybe 1500 calories a day at 200 lbs. is the reason).

 

[Zyglamail]

I actually have my latest numbers for all of this. One of the most frotunate things about my duty station is I work in medical, and can have any lab done at any time, for any reason.

TSH - 2.090 ng/dL
Thyroxine Free - 1.12 mcIU/mL
Triiodothyronine - 2.770 pg/mL

All normal. Yet I do feel sluggish and tired quite often, for no reason (well maybe 1500 calories a day at 200 lbs. is the reason).

LOL, thats my whole point which everyone seems to be missing.

Your numbers are "normal" based on what? Based on the fact that there are withing the same range as a few thousand other healthy people? How does that make you normal?

What if a few years ago when you didnt feel sluggish your Triiodothyronine was at 3.1 pg/mL?

Normal for YOU is what your thyroid hormone levels have been at consistently over years when you have felt good. If your dont have data points then the current data means very little aside from the fact that your not clinically hypo/hyper thyroid. It certainly does not mean your thyrodi is functioning optimally.

Iodine is crucial for thyroid hormone production. A better way to judge if your thyroid is functioning optimally is this....

look at a list of hypo/hyper symptoms and ask yourself if you have any, especially if they started in the last few years.

take your basel metabolic temp for a few weeks to see if your average temp is below normal.

Take an iodine loading test to see if you are iodine sufficient.

If you have symptoms of hypo/hyper thyroid, especially new ones. Your BMT is low and your iodine loading test comes back below 95% then its pretty certain your thyroid could be functioning better and without supplementation it will only get worse over the years to come.

Alternatively, just start supplementing with iodine and selenium in the proper forms for a few months and see what happens.

My labs all came back normal yet I have been struggling to lose belly fat for years. In 6 months with no eating or exercise changes I dropped 3% total bodyfat all from my core and the mild hypo symptoms I had are all gone.

 

[ikyn]

LOL, thats my whole point which everyone seems to be missing.

Your numbers are "normal" based on what? Based on the fact that there are withing the same range as a few thousand other healthy people? How does that make you normal?

What if a few years ago when you didnt feel sluggish your Triiodothyronine was at 3.1 pg/mL?

Normal for YOU is what your thyroid hormone levels have been at consistently over years when you have felt good. If your dont have data points then the current data means very little aside from the fact that your not clinically hypo/hyper thyroid. It certainly does not mean your thyrodi is functioning optimally.

Iodine is crucial for thyroid hormone production. A better way to judge if your thyroid is functioning optimally is this....

look at a list of hypo/hyper symptoms and ask yourself if you have any, especially if they started in the last few years.

take your basel metabolic temp for a few weeks to see if your average temp is below normal.

Take an iodine loading test to see if you are iodine sufficient.

If you have symptoms of hypo/hyper thyroid, especially new ones. Your BMT is low and your iodine loading test comes back below 95% then its pretty certain your thyroid could be functioning better and without supplementation it will only get worse over the years to come.

Alternatively, just start supplementing with iodine and selenium in the proper forms for a few months and see what happens.

My labs all came back normal yet I have been struggling to lose belly fat for years. In 6 months with no eating or exercise changes I dropped 3% total bodyfat all from my core and the mild hypo symptoms I had are all gone.

Well ain't that some shit:

4Jun2013 - 3.070
09Oct2013 - 2.87
18Oct2013 - 2.400
09Apr2014 - 2.090

What the actual fuck? Alright, that's interesting. I'm gonna go bring this up.

 

[stevesmi]

you feel sluggish because of X, Y, Z ? or do you feel sluggish because by your own admission you haven't taken care of yourself and are overweight. are you overweight because of underlying issues? or are your underlying issues CAUSED by being overweight? think about that for a second. instead of trying to fix things with clomid, test, supps, blah blah blah.. whatever happened to fixing your own lifestyle? I know that would be too much work, so much easier to take some stuff instead

 

[Zyglamail]

Well ain't that some shit:

4Jun2013 - 3.070
09Oct2013 - 2.87
18Oct2013 - 2.400
09Apr2014 - 2.090

What the actual fuck? Alright, that's interesting. I'm gonna go bring this up.

See, now there is some valuable shit! Your lucky you have some historical data. Most people dont and without it current lab readings are just a tiny piece of the puzzle.


You sir have a full point difference in your levels and that can make a HUGE difference in how you feel and how you perform!

I guess I dont know if thats total serum T3 you posted or not but if it is normal lab ranges are approx 2.3- 4.2 pg/mL so you went from upper half to low end and possibly below.

To put that into perspective if that was your test levels we were looking at it would be like dropping from 700 down to 300 or less.


Also bringing it up to your doc is likely a waste of time because aside from prescribing T4/T3 he wont be of any help. Very few doctors know shit about nutrition and even less about iodine supplementation. In fact most docs will tell people not to supplement iodine or selenium because they are so unfamiliar with the topic. Supplementation to get things working isnt very expensive but does have some pitfalls.

If you want any guidance shoot me a PM. I would love to document your progress.

 

[ikyn]

you feel sluggish because of X, Y, Z ? or do you feel sluggish because by your own admission you haven't taken care of yourself and are overweight. are you overweight because of underlying issues? or are your underlying issues CAUSED by being overweight? think about that for a second. instead of trying to fix things with clomid, test, supps, blah blah blah.. whatever happened to fixing your own lifestyle? I know that would be too much work, so much easier to take some stuff instead

Man, I absolutely agree with you. Likely I'm feeling down and blue about only getting 1500 calories a day, being injured, and dealing with OSA (which could be exacerbated by the weight, hence another reason to just put in the work). I've already lost 20 lbs. in the last 3 months, I'm going to keep it up. I just wanted to see what other people had to say, maybe get some ideas.

 

[Zyglamail]

you feel sluggish because of X, Y, Z ? or do you feel sluggish because by your own admission you haven't taken care of yourself and are overweight. are you overweight because of underlying issues? or are your underlying issues CAUSED by being overweight? think about that for a second. instead of trying to fix things with clomid, test, supps, blah blah blah.. whatever happened to fixing your own lifestyle? I know that would be too much work, so much easier to take some stuff instead

Thats the crazy thing about the thyroid. When it begins to slow down so does your drive, ambition and focus. Its extremely difficult to overcome and even if your mentally strong enough to force an improved diet and workout plan the results are suboptimal which often just add to your depression.