Yohimbine delivery

[Par Deus]

Par Deus ... I was under the impression that you were stating that ANY yohimbine HCL topical product is no good. Now it sems like your saying that your product works better. So are you saying that if a yohimbine hcl product is formulated with that right carriers, it can be effective?

I was not even originally stating that Yohimburn is no good -- just that it is no better than oral usage.

And, yes, I am indeed stating that a well-formulated topical can be effective.

For a detailed explanation of the science, read the article I wrote on the subject -- this is an informative version that originally appeared in Anabolic Extreme -- it is not the advertising version:

http://www.avantlabs.com/topical_fat_loss.htm

 

[macrophage69alpha]

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I would like to know though about the key ingredient used to make both these products. I know that the yohimbine hcl that is used in Yohimburn is formulated and manufactured in the USA with USA GRADE: USP24 Yohimbine hcl.
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Oh Lord, I don't really even know what to say. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "USA GRADE" anything. Real grades include USP, FCC, Reagent. That is a marketing ploy by yourself or your supplier. It is non-sensical. You really need to go run along and play and leave the debate to macro and I. He is at least moderately clever in trying to deceive the members of this board -- you are showing yourself a fool without my help.

well Par deus, What ulter said is technically correct. The grades are designed by the United States Pharmacopeia- USP24 NF19- is the standard that must be met for use in pharmaceutical products. It is a "USA grade or National Formulary" though it is used as an international system of designation of quality. IT IS A MINIMUM PURITY STANDARD OF 99.5%. There are other qualifications... but this is the important one.

this is NOT that important to some, but for those demanding the highest purity...well.... chemicals that meet or exceed USP24 should be used

 

[macrophage69alpha]

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I won't get into the argument of the best delivery system. Par Deus is using a solution that is used for antibiotics/anti-fungals and NSAIDS. Yohimburns uses a solution that is used for Yohimbine hcl.
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What do you mean by "used for Yohimbine HCl". Do you mean it has been shown, in the literature, to be effective in delivering yohimbine to fat tissue??

I thought not.

That leaves to possibilities. 1) You are profoundly stupid, or 2) You are purposefully trying to be misleading. Our product is not designed for NSDAIDS. Every single penetration enhancer is designed for the delivery of hydrophillic compounds, which NSAIDS are NOT. Yes, the research on the carrier is with NSAIDS and anti-biotics, but that hardly equates to our product being designed for their delivery -- I have stated on numerous occassions why the vehicle should also be effective for yohimbine.

The targeted delivery solution WAS designed for use with NSAIDS and anitbiotics(btw- it is not even clear that it works with them because of their nature). You present NO scientific evidence that it will even work with yohimbine. You present a theory that it will but then fail to back it up. The method of action of yohimbine is VERY different from the chemicals that were used.

LETS SEE.. you used studies that used 2 antibiotics and 1 NSAID... and how exactly do they apply to yohimbine????

For instance Griseofulvin, the only chemical of similar wieght to yohimbine, tends to be highly deposited in the skin EVEN WITH ORAL DOSING... How does this prove targeted delivery with this chemical any local topical delivery will result in local uptake.

"Griseofulvin is deposited in varying concentrations in the keratin layer of the skin, hair, and nails. It can be detected in the stratum corneum of the skin within a few hours following administration. Only a very small fraction of an oral dose is distributed in the body fluids and tissues"


Par deus,

You dont prove anything. You post a lot of theories backed up BY A LITTLE SCIENCE, science that is of questionable application.


Yohimburn, on the other hand, is based on some science AND A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT OF EXPERIENCE AND EXPERIMENTATION.

It is based on science and the feedback and experiences of others with aloe, menthol/aspercreme and other various methods that HAVE BEEN TRIED IN THE REAL WORLD and have come out as very effective... MANY of these people had powder(it has been widely available for years), they had the option and opportunity to use it orally- but they found it not very effective- as the studies have.. HOWEVER with topical use with the aforementioned carriers and penetration enhancers they have gotten superior results. THIS IS WHAT YOHIMBURN IS BASED UPON... and future versions will continue to be based upon.

 

[Par Deus]

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The targeted delivery solution WAS designed for use with NSAIDS and anitbiotics(btw- it is not even clear that it works with them because of their nature).
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It is quite clear it works. You really need to get the full papers. It is quite clear.


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You present NO scientific evidence that it will even work with yohimbine. You present a theory that it will but then fail to back it up. The method of action of yohimbine is VERY different from the chemicals that were used.
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And, I have addressed this difference on multiple occassions. You have made no attempt to debunk what I have said in that regard. You just keep making statements with no support about issues i have already argues against.



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LETS SEE.. you used studies that used 2 antibiotics and 1 NSAID... and how exactly do they apply to yohimbine????
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The same way they apply to each other. If one of these substances would have shown the deliver vehicle not to work, you would have a point, however, it works wonderfully with three different chemicals.

I have already addressed the issue of why their major physiological difference is a non-issue.



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For instance Griseofulvin, the only chemical of similar wieght to yohimbine, tends to be highly deposited in the skin EVEN WITH ORAL DOSING...
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But, this is AFTER it goes systemic. Nonetheless, the concentrations are still significantly higher with topical use, employing the deliver vehicle.




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You dont prove anything. You post a lot of theories backed up BY A LITTLE SCIENCE, science that is of questionable application.
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You are quite correct. Scientists do not attempt to prove things. They only disprove them.

As to the science, you say there is little and that the applicatiuon is questionable, but you have been unable to be remotely sucessful in arguing against it -- not to mentione that it is much, much better for our product than with yohimburn.



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Yohimburn, on the other hand, is based on some science AND A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT OF EXPERIENCE AND EXPERIMENTATION.
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All without controls or statistical analysis. When, the legitamite literature goes against you, this is of very little real value.

For, instance, how many of your experimental subjects have also used oral yohimbine, in the doses suggested to be efficacious by the literature, along with a similar diet and exercise program??


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It is based on science and the feedback and experiences of others with aloe, menthol/aspercreme and other various methods that HAVE BEEN TRIED IN THE REAL WORLD and have come out as very effective...
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And, every bit of feedback I have received on my product has been good, with the exception of the person who claimed it was caustic on a public board that promotes another product (at that time it was just the bulk powder, not Yohimburn, Cutting Gel was also being promoted pretty heavily at that period), and when I offered this person a refund, I never heard from them. I think that strange for an $80 product.

So, my product has also been utilized, successfully, in THE REAL WORLD to go along with the science that supports the likelihood of its efficacy.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

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The targeted delivery solution WAS designed for use with NSAIDS and anitbiotics(btw- it is not even clear that it works with them because of their nature).
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It is quite clear it works. You really need to get the full papers. It is quite clear.

It is not clear, it is clear that it was better than the control... which was a VERY POOR CARRIER-- what does that prove?

Also you GIVE no basis for why it will work for yohimbine.. you repeatedly state that you have but you HAVE NOT.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

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LETS SEE.. you used studies that used 2 antibiotics and 1 NSAID... and how exactly do they apply to yohimbine????
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The same way they apply to each other. If one of these substances would have shown the deliver vehicle not to work, you would have a point, however, it works wonderfully with three different chemicals.

I have already addressed the issue of why their major physiological difference is a non-issue.



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For instance Griseofulvin, the only chemical of similar wieght to yohimbine, tends to be highly deposited in the skin EVEN WITH ORAL DOSING...
___________________________________________________


But, this is AFTER it goes systemic. Nonetheless, the concentrations are still significantly higher with topical use, employing the deliver vehicle.

Once again you misconstrue the findings of a poorly designed study.. ANY decent carrier will be better than propylene glycol.

Your claims with respect to griseofulvin are ludicrous. It is delivered there- it does not stray because of its nature. That is not targeted delivery.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

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It is based on science and the feedback and experiences of others with aloe, menthol/aspercreme and other various methods that HAVE BEEN TRIED IN THE REAL WORLD and have come out as very effective...
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And, every bit of feedback I have received on my product has been good, with the exception of the person who claimed it was caustic on a public board that promotes another product (at that time it was just the bulk powder, not Yohimburn, Cutting Gel was also being promoted pretty heavily at that period), and when I offered this person a refund, I never heard from them. I think that strange for an $80 product.

So, my product has also been utilized, successfully, in THE REAL WORLD to go along with the science that supports the likelihood of its efficacy.

Par DEUS,

I have searched the boards, on AE I did find 1 or 2 people that like lipoderm- a site that published your article- but that is it. You must have a lot of E mail. I am not saying that lipoderm does not work, though I will say without hesitation that , IMHO, Yohimburn uses higher quality ingredients in a superior formulation- A FORMULATION THAT WAS DEVELOPED BASED ON REAL WORLD DATA AS WELL AS SCIENCE.

btw- your insinuation that that "the board" conspired against you and made up the caustic story is just nonsense. Strong penetration enhancers- effective or not... tend to be caustic.

btw2- I believe that the person was not one who used it but a friend of a female that had, I really dont remember... I have recieved other E mails- though as I said only a couple saying that it was caustic. I have not tried it so I cannot say with certainty one way or another

 

[Ulter]

Par Deus I asked you if used USA GRADE: USP24 Yohimbine hcl in your product. Your answer is there is no such thing. Well now we all know there is. I won’t call you stupid, just uninformed. You choose to use a cheaper form of Yohimbine from India and then laugh because others are spending the money to use a finer grade for their product. I couldn't say anything about you, or to you, that says more about what you sell and what little integrity you place on what you sell than that statement of yours. If you are going to scoff at your competitors for spending more for higher quality ingredients and do it a public forum then you have no business calling anyone stupid.

I have stated on numerous occassions why the vehicle should also be effective for yohimbine.

Should? You have a patent. You have been selling this product for over a year. You mean to tell me you don't know if the vehicle you are using is effective with Yohimbine. If you don't know if your product is effective or not then why don’t you run along and come back when you’re sure.

WWW.ANABOLICFITNESS.NET

 

[Par Deus]

well Par deus, What ulter said is technically correct. The grades are designed by the United States Pharmacopeia-

This is a real grade. Ours is USP as well, BTW.