Would YOU like to gain 12 pounds in six weeks...

[b fold the truth]

I can hit you with a baseball bat and you'll be sore, but not grow from it.

I know I do not have the biggest legs ever seen, but I built 95% of the size with high reps.

Don't you think that if you move your 20rm set form 225 to 325 that your 1rm will NOT go up as a result??

btw - fot hose who don't know I totally respect this man. THis is why I have made it my mission to shop him the error of his ways.

Baseball bat...lol. I get your point. We are both trying to use extremes here.

I also built a lot of size on my legs with high reps (3-10). I have also done sets of 100 before on squats with 135. My size increased a bit, for the time, with doing higher reps (also caused me to get more sore) but I always had to go back to lower reps again to keep the progress going. 20 rep squats are great, for a short time. I just don't like the idea of 20 rep deads.

I do feel that if I increased my 20 rep deadlift weight...I would just be in better oxygen shape...not strength shape. There is a difference. I have a personal best deadlift (totally raw) of 629. I did not gain any of that strength by doing high rep deadlifts. At one time I was on a 6 sets of 10 reps with 60 sec rest between sets. I once did deadlifts with 300 for 5 sets of 10 reps with 60 sec rest. I remember two things about that session.
1) I puked after my 5th set, laying shirtless in the snow.
2) My lower back had a bad type of pain for more than a week.

I can tell you this, I train like an animal. I like to bleed, hurt, see the rough spots on my hands rip off between sets, I like the bars that dig into my skin, and I like yelling loudly when my body says quit. With a 20 rep sets...you better believe that 21 was NOT an option.

I just feel that my joint recovery on these would put me, and anyone else who trained with big weights, under. Read the old school thread and notice how many times fro and others spoke of sore knees and how sore they were. There is a reason for that.

I find very little correlation between increasing a 20 rep set strength to increasing a 1RM strength. If you are saying that a 20rep and a 1rep set are equal...then why do all the extra reps? If the 20 rep set will increase my 1rep max...then that means that it works both ways.
.....so.....why spend all of my time doing a 20 rep set when I can get the same strength gains from my 1rep set? It would be much more efficient.

I have just been injured time and time again from doing high rep squats, bench, and deadlifts. Night Fly did 2 weeks straight of high rep deadlifts and even pulled 225 for 17 reps I believe...and totally raw...but her lower back has hurt for 2 weeks now. Tonight she went in the gym and did singles...no lower back pain.

There is a reason why strength athletes do not do high rep deads...I'll find the article.

FYI...no one should think that I do not like Cornholio. I ask him questions on here becaue I think that I can learn from him. He is one of the more intelligent persons on this board. I have a personal belief that if you question everything, including yourself and your believs...that you will do one of two things..
1) Strengthen your own beliefs
2) Change your beliefs

Besides...Cornholio didn't even laugh at me when I was singing "Family Tradition" while dballer was being hit on by that woman with the green teeth. Well...he waited till I turned around to laugh..it's all good..lol

B True

 

[The Shadow]

Bad example, and you know it!

Really??

How so, both relate to trauma to a muscle that will not necessarily result in growth.


Take a 2 pound dumbbell and do a set of as many curls as you can do. The latic acid accumulation may make you sore - will it make you grow?? Probably not.


Sorry - do I get winded from doing sets of 20 reps - YE.>

Am I sore as hell - Yes.

Take bfold an dlet's say he did 20 with 400 - that translates into a 1 rm of640(I know these charts get ragged on, but it's the closest example I have). That is a 1rm of 640. He has stated that he did an EASY 637 or so a while back - so in terms of a 1rm, was that a maximal effort - not really. Still more than I could do, but no. High reps takes more than a workout to acclimate the body.

I bet Fold could get 20 with 415 on the next w/o.

 

[bm2k]

Really??

How so, both relate to trauma to a muscle that will not necessarily result in growth.

It depends how you draw the correlation. Yes, they both relate to trauma and to a muscle that won't necessarily grow. However, they have completely different aims. That said, its not really the main point...

I agree with parts of what both you and b fold have said.

At the end of the day, muscle soreness after a workout isn't directly proportional to growth, however, there is a relationship that is extremely different in every individual, and hard to measure. Personally, its a nice indicator of how hard I'm working, how effective a training routine is, and where I'm going wrong...

 

[b fold the truth]

A part from this deadlift article...the best I have ever read.

http://www.testosterone.net/articles/194dead.html

"Mistake #7: Training with multiple reps

Next time you see someone doing multiple reps on the deadlift, take note of the form of each rep. You'll see the later reps look nothing like the first. In competition you only have to pull once, so you need to learn how to develop what's known as starting strength for the deadlift. This is the strength needed to get the bar off the floor without an eccentric (negative) action before the start.

In other words, you don't lower the bar first and then lift the weight as you do with the squat and bench press. When you train with multiple reps you're beginning to develop reversal strength, which isn't needed with the deadlift.

These two reasons are enough to keep the deadlift training to singles. If you're using multiple reps with the deadlift, then stand up in between each rep and restart the lift. This way you'll be teaching the proper form and be developing the right kind of strength. "

I believe that doing deads at 95% of your max...is probably best. With your example of me doing 405 for 18 reps a few weeks back but only doing 629 for a single...well...that 629 was my 3rd time deadlifting in months...I am bound to get stronger. When you take a 1rm and are pulling weights like that...till you fail...you could always probably pull just a bit more.

Still...why spend all that time and chance for injury on a 20 rep set when you can get the same from a 1-3 rep set?

B True

 

[The Shadow]

Still...why spend all that time and chance for injury on a 20 rep set when you can get the same from a 1-3 rep set?

B True

Why??


I have NEVER seen anyone seriously injure themselves on a 20 rep sets of anything. I have seen more blown out knees and popped pecs on low rep sets than I care to remember.

It is a fact that you do not get the huge surge of Test and Gh by doing low rep sets.

I know that you don't mean that a set of 3 reps will, proportionally produce the same over-all anabolic effect as a high rep set???

 

[b fold the truth]

Why??


I have NEVER seen anyone seriously injure themselves on a 20 rep sets of anything. I have seen more blown out knees and popped pecs on low rep sets than I care to remember.

It is a fact that you do not get the huge surge of Test and Gh by doing low rep sets.

I know that you don't mean that a set of 3 reps will, proportionally produce the same over-all anabolic effect as a high rep set???

I have said several times in this thread how I have been injured from high rep sets...just as night fly experienced with high rep deadlifts. I have a very good friend who has squatted 910 x 2 reps and says that he has an injury problem every time he does high reps.

Huge surge of Test and Gh from high rep sets? V2G increases insulin and andro increases your natural test by 300%...yet it still does nothing. "Are you taking test or something?...Nope...just doing high reps." I just see this as being flawed.

If a set of 3 reps will not proportionally produce the same over-all anabolic effect as high rep sets...then explain ME. Why is it that I am 285lbs? How can I beat the odds and make it work for me? How can I have a big and strong back while still doing low reps?

B True

 

[Madd Hatter]

Glad to be the flashing point of a tangent

And for the record, WBB=Wanna be big

And if anyone has any help for my original post, please do share.

 

[b fold the truth]

Glad to be the flashing point of a tangent

And for the record, WBB=Wanna be big

And if anyone has any help for my original post, please do share.

Sorry, I do apologize. I always like picking Cornholio's brain for information.

I support any routine that includes squats and deadlifts...this one does both. Give it a shot, surely it can't hurt.

B True

 

[The Shadow]

I have said several times in this thread how I have been injured from high rep sets...just as night fly experienced with high rep deadlifts. I have a very good friend who has squatted 910 x 2 reps and says that he has an injury problem every time he does high reps.

Huge surge of Test and Gh from high rep sets? V2G increases insulin and andro increases your natural test by 300%...yet it still does nothing. "Are you taking test or something?...Nope...just doing high reps." I just see this as being flawed.

If a set of 3 reps will not proportionally produce the same over-all anabolic effect as high rep sets...then explain ME. Why is it that I am 285lbs? How can I beat the odds and make it work for me? How can I have a big and strong back while still doing low reps?

B True

I'll dig up the study that showed high rep sets above 12 were superior in eliciting a test/gh surge than compared to low reps stuff.

I'm not saying that doing low rep stuff will not make you big and strong. The program is full of low rep/set work. THe only 20 rep set was for the Sl dead version.

I'm saying that there is more than one way to get to any point. A combination of low and high reps is the best route imo.

How can you be big and strong while doing low reps you ask. Remember that a l;ot of your sport spefific training is very high rep in nature whether it seems like it at first glance.

Log press for reps
deadlifts for reps
Farmers walk and Stone carry are very aerobic in nature as well.


Again - I love debating this and I do not want anyone to think that there is a problem between FOld and I because there isn't.

 

[Madd Hatter]

I really wanna try this routine, so today after my leg w/o I tried SLDL's with a whopping 80lbs, just to try my form for shits and giggles (who says that? geez). Anyway, the giggling was coming from anyone watching me do this, and they were giggling like school girls.

My back felt like I was doing hyperextensions, and my legs felt like I was trying to touch my toes (makes sense). And that was it. WTF? I tried with my knees straight locked and slightly bent. I made a point to keep my back straight and not rounded. I tried going low, I tried staying high. It just didn't work, stupid must be I.

So, I ask for further opinions on subbing Leg Press (or anything else) for the SLDL's (that's what I did on the WBB routine and my upper legs have been growing, I'm sure 6 sets of squats helps).