Wanting to try havoc ( could be to young)

[Wumderbean]

im 18 years old, wanting to take havoc now for a cycle so i can bulk up as much as possible so i can step in and take , amp02/lipo before the summer comes so i can look good for the summer. i was wondering how dangerous it is to take it at 18, or if i can take it at 18 and get some extra PCT to fix it. Read that it can mess up your endocrine system for life and thats about it everyone else just says, your a idiot for taking it at 18 with no back up info at all. im in really good shape i need a honest answer with some facts to back it up. all i need to know is will it really mess me up bad

 

[SouthernLord]

Hold off on the Havoc bro. You have your whole adult life ahead of you to mess around with gear. Just buy the AMP02 and Raw MCC creatine and eat like a horse. These should be the best times of your life to gain naturally don't mess it up with a stupid prohormone.

 

[koolkatarbtl]

Listen, man. I was in about the same position as you at your age.

I have had low-normal T levels since puberty, despite having a normal sex drive and no problems gaining mass. I still had problems with chronic fatigue, anxiety and depression.

I'm almost 20 now, and have been on TRT for 3 months and HCG for about a month. I've researched the topic thoroughly and was not given an answer on what kind of long-term effect getting your T levels in the top of the (normal) range with weekly T injections would do to a 19 year old, but I took that risk anyway and only time will tell if I will regret it or not.

After about a year and a half of going through doctors, I finally got an OK for TRT and am now on 100mg enanthate weekly. Sometimes I'll bump it up to 150 or 200 every once in a while since I get automatic free monthly refills. So far, I've made amazing progress in the gym. Depression and anxiety are almost completetly gone and I could *not* be happier.

As far as epistane goes, I "pulse cycled" it for a few weeks about a month ago with no adverse effects. That's when I made my biggest gains. I took 40mg on workout days (so 3x a week).

How will all this affect me, 5, 10, 20 years from now? Hell, I don't know. I figured my life was already halfway down the shitter before starting treatement, and while other kids my age are fucking up their own bodies smoking cigarettes and getting wasted all the time, I doubt this can be worse.

Sorry for derailing the thread with my story. I still won't do a "full" cycle until I'm about 25. Hell, I could do 500mg weekly, but I have the common sense to stay within range.

FWIW, I recently tried Novedex XT, figuring my estrogen would be somewhat elevated from randomly bumping the T injection dosage and the added HCG (my most recent bloodwork is only from after 2 months of doing T injections Sub-Q without HCG, and the endo said my T was high-normal and estrogen was well within range.

Anyway, the results I got from the Novedex were pretty dissapointing. The obvious reason is I started out way too strong at the full 4 caps. I only did 4 days and it made my joints ache and my strength and libido went down. I'll take a while off and maybe restart at 1 cap a day.

You know, discussing this kind of blatant misusage of these drugs as a 19 year old kind of feels like discussing doing heroin or crystal meth on the bluelight forums.

Anyway, my closing statement is that, IMO, as long as you don't do any hardcore AAS cycles you should be "OK", and by "OK" you won't experience any immediate short-term side effects worth noticing. You can try pulse-cycling the Havoc for a few weeks, but I definitely would not take it daily.

My .02$

 

[Wumderbean]

thanks for input guys, hoping to get a little more input before i go threw with buying it

 

[1500]

thanks for input guys, hoping to get a little more input before i go threw with buying it

well, if you decide to go ahead with it just let me know. i can point you in the right direction to get it cheaper than anywhere else.

 

[bigdofba]

I just made a thread about Havoc and Epistane, which is basically the same thing.

When I search epistane I found it in two different bottles. Is there a difference? I heard they discontinued it.

 

[Nelson Montana]

UNLEASHED, BIG BLAST, VIGOR and lots of food. Totally safe and healthy and if you train hard enough you'll grow like a weed. Don't fuck with that prohormone crap.

 

[koolkatarbtl]

UNLEASHED, BIG BLAST, VIGOR and lots of food. Totally safe and healthy and if you train hard enough you'll grow like a weed. Don't fuck with that prohormone crap.

"Hey kid, don't fuck around with all those prohormones that actually do something, instead, make sure to buy all my shitty herbal products and you too, can grow like a weed!"

I like how they're all in bold caps. So you almost don't bother with reading the rest.

It's like Ulter/Macro all over again. I love this place.

 

[Nelson Montana]

"Hey kid, don't fuck around with all those prohormones that actually do something, instead, make sure to buy all my shitty herbal products and you too, can grow like a weed!"

I like how they're all in bold caps. So you almost don't bother with reading the rest.

It's like Ulter/Macro all over again. I love this place.

You really don't know what you're talking about so maybe you shouldn't talk.

 

[DJLegacy2k1]

Sigh here we go again...

"Hey kid, go buy prohormones at the age of 18 and pray your PCT from GNC saves you from any problems. I think you should waste your natural ability to grow by eating right and training now and take a short cut! I also think you shouldnt try safer natural sups first because all the cool kids are doing prohormones without thinking about the natural potential they are wasting! Now Im going to get back to bashing good board sponsors that accually make some decent suggestions whether hes promoting his products or not, at least hes making smarter suggestions than prohomones for an 18 year old! PS: IM A DOUCHE!"

Seriously...Does anyone think any more?

-Legacy

 

[koolkatarbtl]

Sigh here we go again...

"Hey kid, go buy prohormones at the age of 18 and pray your PCT from GNC saves you from any problems. I think you should waste your natural ability to grow by eating right and training now and take a short cut! I also think you shouldnt try safer natural sups first because all the cool kids are doing prohormones without thinking about the natural potential they are wasting! Now Im going to get back to bashing good board sponsors that accually make some decent suggestions whether hes promoting his products or not, at least hes making smarter suggestions than prohomones for an 18 year old! PS: IM A DOUCHE!"

Seriously...Does anyone think any more?

-Legacy

"Lift heavy, eat big, get big, buy my shit."

Yeah, great fuckin' advice right there. I know *exactly* what I am talking about since all the garbage being sold by the sponsors here is maintained by an intricate network of insiders (who pretend to be regular posters, or just get their dick sucked a lot) in order for said companies to maintain profit.

Funny how I haven't heard about proteinfactory on any other bodybuilding forum since '05 and Nelson is generally regarded as a douche everywhere but this place.

Notice how everyone suddenly stopped talking about Yohimburn and T-Rex once Ulter disappeared, and his company that went down the shitter right along with him.

You think I don't know how this shit works? How fucking stupid do you think I am? Can't even dupe someone half your age, Nelson. This post will probably get deleted in a blink of an eye. Yes, the truth hurts, "bro".

 

[DJLegacy2k1]

?...Im confused

Everyone knows Nelson sells those products and points everyone to them.

Thats not the issue here, the issue is its still a better option to tell a kid to try natural shit before going to prohormones.

I dont care about the corporate aspect or who is making money where, the fact is still at 18 the kid should eat right and use natural shit for now, plain and simple.

I havent used ANY of those products by Nelson and could care less about that, my issue is with the fact that youre telling an 18 year old to screw off his natural potential and take the shortcut, for no reason.

-Legacy

 

[koolkatarbtl]

?...Im confused

Everyone knows Nelson sells those products and points everyone to them.

Thats not the issue here, the issue is its still a better option to tell a kid to try natural shit before going to prohormones.

I dont care about the corporate aspect or who is making money where, the fact is still at 18 the kid should eat right and use natural shit for now, plain and simple.

I havent used ANY of those products by Nelson and could care less about that, my issue is with the fact that youre telling an 18 year old to screw off his natural potential and take the shortcut, for no reason.

-Legacy

No, I didn't "tell him" to do anything. I gave him my case history and then I offered my opinion. See, there is a difference.

 

[DJLegacy2k1]

Well youre attack on Nelson basically made it look like you suggest more that he take prohomones than natural sups. I understand if you dont want to promote Nelson's stuff, but offering the kid more suggestions instead of bashing Nelson might have been a little more helpfull for the guy.

-Legacy

 

[koolkatarbtl]

Well youre attack on Nelson basically made it look like you suggest more that he take prohomones than natural sups. I understand if you dont want to promote Nelson's stuff, but offering the kid more suggestions instead of bashing Nelson might have been a little more helpfull for the guy.

-Legacy

How can luring an ignorant kid into wasting his money *not* be offensive to you?

Nelson can either;

a) Tell him to use prohormones and make no money.
b) Tell him not to use prohormones and to buy his shit and make money. As an added bonus, it almost looks like he actually cares about this kid's health! Imagine that! Ding ding ding. We have a winner.

 

[DJLegacy2k1]

I get your point about Nelsons posts, but my point is, give the kid some alternatives. Point him to some natural products you trust or would suggest. Dont just tell him "Nelson Sucks" but dont give him any choices that are better, in your opinion. Just telling him that "Nelson Sucks" isnt going to help fix his problems

Dont worry man, im not trying to start anything, just trying to be friendly and help give the kid some natural options so that he doesnt wind up needing HRT and Gyno surgery at age 20. I was just hoping that instead of bashing people, people on here would start giving suggestions to help the original posters. It happens all the time, someone hates someone for pushing their products but then the original poster is left more confused than before because now they dont know what to think and arent given any options lol.

Its all good man, not trying to fight, Id just like to see the board a happier more helpfull place from time to time

-Legacy

 

[koolkatarbtl]

I get your point about Nelsons posts, but my point is, give the kid some alternatives. Point him to some natural products you trust or would suggest. Dont just tell him "Nelson Sucks" but dont give him any choices that are better, in your opinion. Just telling him that "Nelson Sucks" isnt going to help fix his problems

Dont worry man, im not trying to start anything, just trying to be friendly and help give the kid some natural options so that he doesnt wind up needing HRT and Gyno surgery at age 20. I was just hoping that instead of bashing people, people on here would start giving suggestions to help the original posters. It happens all the time, someone hates someone for pushing their products but then the original poster is left more confused than before because now they dont know what to think and arent given any options lol.

Its all good man, not trying to fight, Id just like to see the board a happier more helpfull place from time to time

-Legacy

It's cool man, I liked your reply and I agree.

The problem is you see these kinds of threads pop up every now and then where a teen is asking if he should start using drugs, and everyone is telling not to. Didn't work with pot and it 'aint gonna work with AAS/prohormones.

Chances are, the guy has already made up his mind and probably already has a bottle of Havoc hidden in his closet. I think he can get more from someone telling him to pulse cycle it instead of using it daily so he minimizes the chances of fucking himself up instead of 20 posters barking at him that he's too young, possibly even offending him. You really think that'll convince him to throw out that bottle of Havoc? See where I'm getting at?

At any rate, he can do whatever he wants, and I can honestly say that I really don't care either way because he's old enough to make his own decisions and accept the consequences. He doesn't really need to know what natural alternatives there are, or what to do to grow. That info is plastered in almost every single thread on every single bodybuilding forum and it's always the same. I'm just cutting through the BS and offering him some advice he can actually use, ei; if you're gonna do it, then do it in such a way that you don't get permanent HPTA supression and as you said, wind up at 20 with gyno and on HRT for life. (Which actually isn't that bad... except for the gyno part )

 

[DJLegacy2k1]

Yeah, it would be nice if the 18 year olds would just tell us if they have the stuff and are planning on using it, or they are seriously still considering options. Then we would be able to give better advice.

I dont see problems with AAS useby people that do their homework. I just see a problem with 18 year olds starting with prohormones, I would wait till 21ish, then use some aids once you start hitting your natural limits.

To the original poster, good luck, let us know what you decide.

-Legacy

 

[Wumderbean]

i still haven't ordered it, but im really confused on all the natural supps out there atm, you go to GNC they try to sell you all this crap that don't work. Now from this post i see people trying to do the same thing. Id be more then willing to go the natural way first if i could just get a list of the good shit thats around now, i see Amp02 and RAWMCC getting all the reviews but not seeing anything said about anything else atm. still looking for a good Protein and creatine. i seen in the supps for the still for the 100% whey and the creaPURE having 10/10 from the sticky post there. but wasnt sure if something came out better or not

 

[koolkatarbtl]

i still haven't ordered it, but im really confused on all the natural supps out there atm, you go to GNC they try to sell you all this crap that don't work. Now from this post i see people trying to do the same thing. Id be more then willing to go the natural way first if i could just get a list of the good shit thats around now, i see Amp02 and RAWMCC getting all the reviews but not seeing anything said about anything else atm. still looking for a good Protein and creatine. i seen in the supps for the still for the 100% whey and the creaPURE having 10/10 from the sticky post there. but wasnt sure if something came out better or not

Not much in the realm of "natural" that is worth a damn other than good old creatine monohydrate. Withstood the test of time and has oodles of research backing up it's safety and effectiveness. Don't bother with CEE or any of the "super duper advanced creatine formulas".

High dose BCAA formulas are showing some promise (Xtend is good but I use bulk BCAA powder from bulk nutrition). It helps a lot with recovery. This one is still under debate.

That's about as good as it gets. Any "natural" herbal formula you will encounter that has outrageous claims is probably bunk. There is also a *very* thin line between "natural" herbal formulas, and the newer pseudo-aromatase inhibitors that claim to have no effect on the HPTA axis (Stuff like Novedex XT), so you have to be careful and realise that most of these companies are money-grabbing whores who want to make as much money as possible before disappearing into obscurity or getting sued for mislabeling their products.

See, that's why you're not going to find anyone pimping legit gear. People are afraid of drugs because they actually work. Go figure.

Go to Lyle Mcdonald's forum at www.bodyrecomposition.com. This is hands down the best source for diet and training info on the net. "Eat big, get big" is not good advice. Lyle's mentality is very staunchy and skeptical and so are the majority of the members on the board. As a result, you get very accurate, no-BS info. Straight to the point. No sponsors, no pimping.

EF is a great place for advice on AAS. Unfortunately, there is too much bro-logic and meatheads so it can get pretty confusing for a natural guy to browse a board where 90% of it's users are juicing. Not to mention the pimping, o-lord the pimping. Nonetheless, it remains the best of the lot as far as AAS info goes.

Good luck.

 

[DJLegacy2k1]

There is a decent training program called MAX-OT if youre trying to get a decent starting point for training. I WILL back OMEGA's products, I have used AMP-02 and LIPOFLAME as well as RAW MCC. Lipoflame works 100% no joke! AMP02 does seem to help my lifts/pumps. RAW MCC I have just started taking recently but my recovery has seemed to be very good since starting it.

OMEGA has always been helpfull and seems to take care of customers as best as possible which helps me look past his ads. He has always given me good advice whether it be about his products or not.

Its a good place to start I think.

Keep in mind also that the only way to reach the goals you want, relies heavily on diet. Can you take drugs and get results and not know what youre doing, YES! Can you do things the right way and get the best results possible from your training and diet with NO worries of sides or screwing up your natural potential, YES!

Its hard work and you shouldnt use drugs as a shortcut, but more of an aid to get you abover your max potential once you finally get close to or hit that point.

-Legacy

 

[koolkatarbtl]

Oh, one last recommendation; go get a full blood panel done including bioavailable testosterone, E2, etc. That way, if you absolutely know that you're not below normal range for a healthy 18 year old, it should steer you clear from anything that could even remotely affect your endocrine system. It would be sacrilege for a healthy teen with optimized endocrine function to compromise it in any way. I think that most make the supposition that because you're 18, you automatically have sex hormones flying through the fucking roof (which is far from the case for me), and I think it's a mistake. Get your bloodwork done. Pronto. This time, it's an order. Normally, this is always my first recommendation, but since this is not an HRT forum, I just assumed that everything else is in order (adrenals, thyroid, sex hormones, etc.)

Hell, sticking needles into myself a few times a week is the last thing I could have wished for, but for me, it's a question of quality of life. Gains in the gym come second. I have a natural total T level of 200-300 without my replacement shots.

If I had a natural level of total T howevering around 800-1000, you can be DAMN sure all I would be on is protein powder and creatine, but sadly this is not the case.