VERY LOW HDL from WINNY...vets please input

[splperformance]

so my boy is doing a winny only cycle...50mg ED for 8 weeks...he's in week 4 right now and had some blood work done from kidney pain while at the doctor...last week he got the results and his HDL (good cholesterol) was at a 14 so they did a retest 3 days later...that test came back today with an HDL level of 7...for those who don't know, HDL is the good cholesterol which helps eliminate bad cholesterol to help prevent heart disease...the minimum good level for men is 40 and anything below that is bad...a 7 is horrible and can lead to a heart attack out of no where...his doc asked what he was on and he advised him about the winstrol but here's my question for those in the know...from anyone who has had their blood work done and been on a winny only cycle or on a cycle with winny in it, have you ever had HDL levels that low??

his doc put him on niacin to help raise the HDL levels and he's cutting out the winny until i get some good advice from you guys...so chime in and let me know what you know...thanks

 

[herdus33]

The only thing i was going to say is to get him on some niacin and off the winny. Looks like the doc took care of that already. At least he is under doctor supervision and being honest about what he is on.

 

[mastropiece]

I am 50 on a cycle incl anavar and winny orals. I just learned that my hdl went from 40 to 26 and my ldl went from 106 to 189. Ok I am now on statin meds. and I too question wether it is the winny, or just the complete cycle that is messing with my cholesterol. Also there is a question on wether it is reversible off of the cycle.

 

[Primordial Performance]

so my boy is doing a winny only cycle...50mg ED for 8 weeks...he's in week 4 right now and had some blood work done from kidney pain while at the doctor...last week he got the results and his HDL (good cholesterol) was at a 14 so they did a retest 3 days later...that test came back today with an HDL level of 7...for those who don't know, HDL is the good cholesterol which helps eliminate bad cholesterol to help prevent heart disease...the minimum good level for men is 40 and anything below that is bad...a 7 is horrible and can lead to a heart attack out of no where...his doc asked what he was on and he advised him about the winstrol but here's my question for those in the know...from anyone who has had their blood work done and been on a winny only cycle or on a cycle with winny in it, have you ever had HDL levels that low??

his doc put him on niacin to help raise the HDL levels and he's cutting out the winny until i get some good advice from you guys...so chime in and let me know what you know...thanks

We just had a customer report back to us after he used Toco-8 for his cholestrol -

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...m/reduce-ldl-cholesterol-toco-8-a-592064.html

Toco-8 will help reduce his LDL, and increase the HDL. Also have him get on this product > http://products.mercola.com/krill/

If he uses these two things and gets off the winny he should be back up in a normal profile within 4-6 weeks.

-Pp

 

[needtogetaas]

We just had a customer report back to us after he used Toco-8 for his cholestrol -

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...m/reduce-ldl-cholesterol-toco-8-a-592064.html

Toco-8 will help reduce his LDL, and increase the HDL. Also have him get on this product > http://products.mercola.com/krill/

If he uses these two things and gets off the winny he should be back up in a normal profile within 4-6 weeks.

-Pp

And drop the wiiny. Winny will destroy HDL and raise ldd big time. I just proved it with blood test I had don. I will post up for you guys if you like.

 

[o.g.swole]

Here's a good read, and one reason I probably won't use orals...


"As mentioned earlier, the use of anabolic/androgenic steroids may have an impact on the level of LDL (low density lipoprotein), HDL (high density lipoprotein) and total cholesterol values. As you probably know, HDL is considered the "good" cholesterol since it can act to remove cholesterol deposits from the arteries. LDL has the opposite effect, aiding in the buildup of cholesterol on the artery walls. The general pattern seen with steroid use is a lowering of HDL concentrations, while total and LDL cholesterol numbers increase. The ratio of HDL to LDL values is usually more important than one's total cholesterol count, as these two substances seem to balance each other in the body. If these changes are exacerbated by the long-term use of steroidal compounds, it can clearly be detrimental to the cardiovascular system. This may be additionally heightened by a rise in blood pressure, which is common with the use of strongly aromatizable compounds.

It is also important to note that due to their structure and form of administration, most 17 alpha alkylated oral steroids have a much stronger negative impact on these levels compared to injectable steroids. Using a milder drug like Winstrol® (stanozolol), in hopes HDL level changes will also be mild, may therefore not turn out to be the best option. One study comparing the effect of a weekly injection of 200mg testosterone enanthate vs. only a 6mg daily oral dose of Winstrol® makes this very clear". After only six weeks, stanozolol was shown to reduce HDL and HDL-2 (good) cholesterol by an average of 33% and 71% respectively. The HDL reduction (HDL-3 subfraction) with the testosterone group was only an average of 9%. LDL (bad) cholesterol also rose 29% with stanozolol, while it actually dropped 16% with the use of testosterone. Those concerned with cholesterol changes during steroid use may likewise wish to avoid oral steroids, and opt for the use of injectable compounds exclusively. We also must note that estrogens generally have a favorable impact on cholesterol profiles. Estrogen replacement therapy in postmenopausal women for example is regularly linked to a rise in HDL cholesterol and a reduction in LDL values. Likewise the aromatization of testosterone to estradiol may be beneficial in preventing a more dramatic change in serum cholesterol due to the presence of the hormone. A recent study investigated just this question by comparing the effects of testosterone alone (280 mg testosterone enanthate weekly), vs. the same dose combined with an aromatase inhibitor (250mg testolactone 4 times daily)42. Methyltestosterone was also tested in third group, at a dose of 20mg daily. The results were quite enlightening. The group using only testosterone enanthate showed no significant decrease in HDL cholesterol values over the course of the 12 week study. After only four weeks the group using testosterone plus an aromatase inhibitor displayed a reduction of 25% on average. The methyltestosterone group noted an HDL reduction of 35% by this point, and also noted an unfavourable rise in LDL cholesterol. This clearly should make us think a little more closely about estrogen maintenance during steroid therapy. Aside from deciding whether or not it is actually necessary in any given circumstance, drug choice may also be an important consideration. For example, the estrogen receptor antagonist Nolvadex® does not seem to exhibit ant estrogenic effects on cholesterol values, and in fact often raises HDL levels. Using this to combat the side effects of estrogen instead of an aromatase inhibitor such as Arimidex® or Cytadren® may therefore be a good idea, particularly for those who are using steroids for longer periods of time. Since heart disease is one of the top killers worldwide, steroid using athletes (particularly older individuals) should not ignore these risks. If nothing else it is a very good idea to have your blood pressure and cholesterol values measured during each heavy cycle, being sure to discontinue the drugs should a problem become evident. It is also advisable to limit the intake of foods high in saturated fats and cholesterol, which should help minimize the impact of steroid treatment. Since blood pressure and cholesterol levels will usually revert back to their pre-treated norms soon after steroids are withdrawn, long-term damage is not a common worry."

 

[splperformance]

definitely good advice and information...thx guys...but og swole...keep in mind this isn't even oral based winny but rather injectable...but i'll definitely give him the heads up on this info and products to use...

luckily when i've taken winny with cycles, my hdl and ldl count has always turned out without normal ranges within 2-3 months after the cycle...

i wonder if anavar is this harsh on the hdl and ldl levels as well but i'm assuming the answer is yes

 

[splperformance]

And drop the wiiny. Winny will destroy HDL and raise ldd big time. I just proved it with blood test I had don. I will post up for you guys if you like.

if you can post it up that would be great...thx

 

[pump1967]

definitely good advice and information...thx guys...but og swole...keep in mind this isn't even oral based winny but rather injectable...but i'll definitely give him the heads up on this info and products to use...

luckily when i've taken winny with cycles, my hdl and ldl count has always turned out without normal ranges within 2-3 months after the cycle...

i wonder if anavar is this harsh on the hdl and ldl levels as well but i'm assuming the answer is yes

did 50 mg stanozolol three times a week plus 30 mg of oxandrolone/day for 10 weeks.hdl went from 46 to 16 during that period.took some omega 3 but apparently not enough during cycle to offset hdl drop,when finshed loaded up taking omega 3 fish oil capsules 8 to 10 /day and hdl went back up to high 40's in 8 weeks.

 

[Primordial Performance]

definitely good advice and information...thx guys...but og swole...keep in mind this isn't even oral based winny but rather injectable...but i'll definitely give him the heads up on this info and products to use...

luckily when i've taken winny with cycles, my hdl and ldl count has always turned out without normal ranges within 2-3 months after the cycle...

i wonder if anavar is this harsh on the hdl and ldl levels as well but i'm assuming the answer is yes

Yes, anavar will kill your HDL just as badly. Any 17aa oral will.

-Pp

 

[needtogetaas]

if you can post it up that would be great...thx

I 2will no prob bro. Send me a pm

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Here's a good read, and one reason I probably won't use orals...


"As mentioned earlier, the use of anabolic/androgenic steroids may have an impact on the level of LDL (low density lipoprotein), HDL (high density lipoprotein) and total cholesterol values. As you probably know, HDL is considered the "good" cholesterol since it can act to remove cholesterol deposits from the arteries. LDL has the opposite effect, aiding in the buildup of cholesterol on the artery walls. The general pattern seen with steroid use is a lowering of HDL concentrations, while total and LDL cholesterol numbers increase. The ratio of HDL to LDL values is usually more important than one's total cholesterol count, as these two substances seem to balance each other in the body. If these changes are exacerbated by the long-term use of steroidal compounds, it can clearly be detrimental to the cardiovascular system. This may be additionally heightened by a rise in blood pressure, which is common with the use of strongly aromatizable compounds.

It is also important to note that due to their structure and form of administration, most 17 alpha alkylated oral steroids have a much stronger negative impact on these levels compared to injectable steroids. Using a milder drug like Winstrol® (stanozolol), in hopes HDL level changes will also be mild, may therefore not turn out to be the best option. One study comparing the effect of a weekly injection of 200mg testosterone enanthate vs. only a 6mg daily oral dose of Winstrol® makes this very clear". After only six weeks, stanozolol was shown to reduce HDL and HDL-2 (good) cholesterol by an average of 33% and 71% respectively. The HDL reduction (HDL-3 subfraction) with the testosterone group was only an average of 9%. LDL (bad) cholesterol also rose 29% with stanozolol, while it actually dropped 16% with the use of testosterone. Those concerned with cholesterol changes during steroid use may likewise wish to avoid oral steroids, and opt for the use of injectable compounds exclusively. We also must note that estrogens generally have a favorable impact on cholesterol profiles. Estrogen replacement therapy in postmenopausal women for example is regularly linked to a rise in HDL cholesterol and a reduction in LDL values. Likewise the aromatization of testosterone to estradiol may be beneficial in preventing a more dramatic change in serum cholesterol due to the presence of the hormone. A recent study investigated just this question by comparing the effects of testosterone alone (280 mg testosterone enanthate weekly), vs. the same dose combined with an aromatase inhibitor (250mg testolactone 4 times daily)42. Methyltestosterone was also tested in third group, at a dose of 20mg daily. The results were quite enlightening. The group using only testosterone enanthate showed no significant decrease in HDL cholesterol values over the course of the 12 week study. After only four weeks the group using testosterone plus an aromatase inhibitor displayed a reduction of 25% on average. The methyltestosterone group noted an HDL reduction of 35% by this point, and also noted an unfavourable rise in LDL cholesterol. This clearly should make us think a little more closely about estrogen maintenance during steroid therapy. Aside from deciding whether or not it is actually necessary in any given circumstance, drug choice may also be an important consideration. For example, the estrogen receptor antagonist Nolvadex® does not seem to exhibit ant estrogenic effects on cholesterol values, and in fact often raises HDL levels. Using this to combat the side effects of estrogen instead of an aromatase inhibitor such as Arimidex® or Cytadren® may therefore be a good idea, particularly for those who are using steroids for longer periods of time. Since heart disease is one of the top killers worldwide, steroid using athletes (particularly older individuals) should not ignore these risks. If nothing else it is a very good idea to have your blood pressure and cholesterol values measured during each heavy cycle, being sure to discontinue the drugs should a problem become evident. It is also advisable to limit the intake of foods high in saturated fats and cholesterol, which should help minimize the impact of steroid treatment. Since blood pressure and cholesterol levels will usually revert back to their pre-treated norms soon after steroids are withdrawn, long-term damage is not a common worry."

Good post.. Look familiar

 

[halfcenturian]

When taking any AAS you need to off set the negative effects they have on lipids.
IMO you should take statin drugs if you can. Lipitor, Zocor, Vytorin, and Crestor. Crestor is the first statin to claim it RAISES HDL. Very Nice!
Otherwise take the same protective sups: Krill oil, Niacin, Policosanol, etc.etc.

 

[needtogetaas]

my hdl just 3 weeks on winny. It was low/normal before this.

 

[timtim]

get policosonal

 

[mastropiece]

Thanks bros. very good info. I def need to keep an eye on things while on orals.

 

[timtim]

the last time i did winstrol my hdl hit 0 and my ldl was 191. it bounced back quickly but that is a dangerous place to be regardless. get that under control quickly!

 

[dal022]

i was on 50mg for 5 weeks last time my hdl was 17

 

[ryno9000]

Ok, this may be a stupid thing to ask, but how hard can it be to raise your HDL again? I mean, it seems like 2 weeks of eating a high egg etc. diet and you'd be fine.

 

[needtogetaas]

Ok, this may be a stupid thing to ask, but how hard can it be to raise your HDL again? I mean, it seems like 2 weeks of eating a high egg etc. diet and you'd be fine.

It can come back to normal pretty fast but still its scary.

 

[timtim]

Ok, this may be a stupid thing to ask, but how hard can it be to raise your HDL again? I mean, it seems like 2 weeks of eating a high egg etc. diet and you'd be fine.

from what my doctor said it can take 8 to 16 weeks for healthy individuals. thats along time to have the arteries under that much stress in my opinion.

 

[ryno9000]

from what my doctor said it can take 8 to 16 weeks for healthy individuals. thats along time to have the arteries under that much stress in my opinion.

Agreed. Thought I'd ask.

 

[halfcenturian]

Krill oil, NIACIN, E.V. Olive oil. Every day will raise your HDL. They ARE HDL!

 

[ceo]

...his doc put him on niacin to help raise the HDL levels and he's cutting out the winny until i get some good advice from you guys...so chime in and let me know what you know...thanks

HAve him stick to what his doctor has him doing. Extended release niacin given at 1000 mg for 4 weeks, 1500 mg for 4 weeks, and 2000 mg for 8 weeks (16 weeks total), was shown to increase HDL 26%.

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/160/8/1177

Fish oils are great, but it's the EPA and DHA that are the key ingredients to their benefits. Sometimes in dietary supplement fish oils, you may have 1000mg of fish oil (or krill oil) but only 150 mg EPA and 90mg DHA.

Prescription fish oil pills are 1000mg oil, but 465mg EPA and 375mg DHA. They go through multi-step refinement and purification processes and are FDA approved. Fish oil caps are usually only prescribed for very high triglycerides though, not for increasing HDL or lowering LDL (or for CHD patients for cardioprotection).

The problem is, for lowering TG, 4+ grams EPA/DHA are needed, but for cardioprotection, about 1 gram EPA/DHA will do. So...if your krill or fish oil pills only give you 150mg EPA / 90mg DHA...that's a LOT of pills to swallow, and a LOT of money to spend. Plus, you are not getting an FDA controlled product, so you DO NOT KNOW what has been done to filter out environmental toxins, such as mercury and PCBs (from fish oils). No guarantees on what you're getting in your supplement product. Hate to have to take 10 pills of 1000mg of oil (10,000mg of fish oil)...or worse yet, 30 pills (30,000mg of questionable oil) and not be sure what was done to filter out toxins.

Back to the topic at hand...for your friend, have him stick with the niacin prescribed from his doctor, and stay off the winny. He can talk to his doctor about taking in extra fish oils, etc. for cardioprotection...his doctor will probably be cool with it, but may not have any recommendations.

Also, there are some good fish oil supps out there with high amounts of EPA/DHA in a reasonable dose. I buy mine in liquid form in the refrigerated section of a health food store. It has 900mg EPA and 600mg DHA in one tblsp.

TMI, I know. Sorry.

 

[needtogetaas]

HAve him stick to what his doctor has him doing. Extended release niacin given at 1000 mg for 4 weeks, 1500 mg for 4 weeks, and 2000 mg for 8 weeks (16 weeks total), was shown to increase HDL 26%.

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/160/8/1177

Fish oils are great, but it's the EPA and DHA that are the key ingredients to their benefits. Sometimes in dietary supplement fish oils, you may have 1000mg of fish oil (or krill oil) but only 150 mg EPA and 90mg DHA.

Prescription fish oil pills are 1000mg oil, but 465mg EPA and 375mg DHA. They go through multi-step refinement and purification processes and are FDA approved. Fish oil caps are usually only prescribed for very high triglycerides though, not for increasing HDL or lowering LDL (or for CHD patients for cardioprotection).

The problem is, for lowering TG, 4+ grams EPA/DHA are needed, but for cardioprotection, about 1 gram EPA/DHA will do. So...if your krill or fish oil pissl only give you 150mg EPA / 90mg DHA...that's a LOT of pills to swallow, and a LOT of money to spend. Plus, you are not getting an FDA controlled product, so you DO NOT KNOW what has been done to filter out environmental toxins, such as mercury and PCBs (from fish oils). No guarantees on what you're getting in your supplement product. Hate to have to take 10 pills of 1000mg of oil (10,000mg of fish oil)...or worse yet, 30 pills (30,000mg of questionable oil) and not be sure what was done to filter out toxins.

Back to the topic at hand...for your friend, have him stick with the niacin prescribed from his doctor, and stay off the winny. He can talk to his doctor about taking in extra fish oils, etc. for cardioprotection...his doctor will probably be cool with it, but may not have any recommendations.

Also, there are some good fish oil supps out there with high amounts of EPA/DHA in a reasonable dose. I buy mine in liquid form in the refrigerated section of a health food store. It has 900mg EPA and 600mg DHA in one tblsp.

TMI, I know. Sorry.

I was just telling a member in pm's about the fish oils. Thats what my doc put my on.

 

[mwm5]

so if one is going to use winny what should he stack with it to help combat this problem? just the mentioned oils?

 

[ceo]

oils would help, but you're fighting an uphill battle. A lot will also depend on genetics. Some people will respond worse, some better (to the winny wreaking havoc on chol.).

I Think short term use of winny, with chol levels checked before/during/and 8-16 weeks after would be a good way to determine how you react. If it kills your lipids, then find another compound. If it isn't so bad, try mega-dosing EPA/DHA while on and getting levels checked during cycle. If things are still not good, consider staying off winny altogether.

 

[Mavafanculo]

Ok, this may be a stupid thing to ask, but how hard can it be to raise your HDL again? I mean, it seems like 2 weeks of eating a high egg etc. diet and you'd be fine.

a high egg diet ????

 

[Mavafanculo]

these are some supp's that will help protect you while you are hdl-impaired and will also help you more quickly normalize your lipid numbers once you come off.

Some have had success keeping HDL up and LDL down while on with these, it might be dose dependent on the offending compound. When I went above 50mg Anavar - oxandrolone - , nothing prevented my HDL from temporarily disappearing.

But some of the supp's below (especially the garlic, grape seed extract, and fish oil) provide a substitute HDL function while you are impaired - preventing/reducing new plaque formation and flushing ldl. The garlic studies are the oldest and haven't been negatively critiqued in any serious way thus far.


1) policosanol 20mg evening (+hdl, -ldl, blood thinner also)

2) garlic - cardiac formula dose of garlique or garlicin etc (acts as a substitute/super hdl, clearing ldl and reducing new plaque formation - also a blood thinner)

3) Niacin or inositol hexanicotinate (noflush niacin) - (one of the few substances to raise hdl - the niacin is preferred, but flushing and liver sides)

4) red yeast extract - a natural form of lovastatin, the same ingredient found in prescription stain drugs - (- ldl)

5) psyllium seed husk products/ hi fiber diet (-ldl )

6) diet high in unsaturated fats ("good fats" from vegetbles) mostly monostaurated fats which will raise hdl (olive oil, peanut oils, walnuts etc)

7) cardio, 30 minutes 3x weekly - even brisk walk - (increases hdl)

8) obviously a diet low in "bad fats" (saturated fats- meat and diary, and trans fats)

9) Fish Oil supplements or fish (better balanced than omega-3 pills) reduce risk of CV event and plaque formation .

10) Grape Seed Extract (-ldl, maybe +hdl, more important prevent oxidation of ldl and plaque formation) - similar protection as garlic during hdl-impaired periods such as during cycle and proximate post-cycle

 

[needtogetaas]

a high egg diet ????

Around th net. There has been this faze catching on about the cholesterol in egg yolks being super good for you.

 

[Mavafanculo]

Around th net. There has been this faze catching on about the cholesterol in egg yolks being super good for you.

I need to read up on this lol. bro-ology or studys?