TWO WEEK CYCLES are the safest!

[Realgains]

You could use test cyp or enanthate at up to a gram with a single shot on day one. A week after the shot you'll have 500 in the system and then after 2 weeks you will have about 250mg in the system and that is low enough for clomid to be effective. BUT this is not the best way to go as ideally one wants to have high levels of androgen in the system EVERY day of the two weeks up until you stop with the test on day 11 or 12.....so fast acting esters will give better results.

RG

 

[the urge]

Hey Real, could you effectivly use ox in a 2 weeker. I have been planning on trying this method for a while and have a lot of the paper ox lying around. Would you see anythng with a ox/dbol cycle, or would you have to also have tren or prop. Would short ox cycle in high doses(70+mgs/day) be effective. Would would you reccommend?

 

[bebaumax]

You could use test cyp or enanthate at up to a gram with a single shot on day one. A week after the shot you'll have 500 in the system and then after 2 weeks you will have about 250mg in the system and that is low enough for clomid to be effective. BUT this is not the best way to go as ideally one wants to have high levels of androgen in the system EVERY day of the two weeks up until you stop with the test on day 11 or 12.....so fast acting esters will give better results.

RG

RG, I think your numbers are off a bit there, bud. If you did 1000mg Cyp or Enanthate on Sunday, the following Sunday you'd have ~700mg, your body only having "used" about 300mg at that point. The half-life of those two esters is about 12 days and 10.5 days, respectively. It wouldn't be until Friday of the following week that you'd be down to 500mg on Cyp and late Wednesday would be 500mg on Enanthate.

-B

 

[Realgains]

RG, I think your numbers are off a bit there, bud. If you did 1000mg Cyp or Enanthate on Sunday, the following Sunday you'd have ~700mg, your body only having "used" about 300mg at that point. The half-life of those two esters is about 12 days and 10.5 days, respectively. It wouldn't be until Friday of the following week that you'd be down to 500mg on Cyp and late Wednesday would be 500mg on Enanthate.

-B

Actually bro I was being a bit "general" with the week thing...enanthate has a half life of about 5 days and cyp has a half life of about 6 days....
I think what you may be referring to is the time that the ester exhibits an ananbolic affect with an average dose.

RG

 

[samoth]

Whoa... 250mg of test floating in the system is 'low' enough for clomid to be efficient?? Can anyone explain this a bit more thoroughly, as I have always heard a standard of 50mgs of remaining test was the maximum...
I'll do some research on this as well, for I have no evidence to back up either claim, but there appears to be quite a contradiction here.
And yes, I agree with RG, the half lifes of the respective esters is five and six days.

 

[Realgains]

Whoa... 250mg of test floating in the system is 'low' enough for clomid to be efficient?? Can anyone explain this a bit more thoroughly, as I have always heard a standard of 50mgs of remaining test was the maximum...
I'll do some research on this as well, for I have no evidence to back up either claim, but there appears to be quite a contradiction here.
And yes, I agree with RG, the half lifes of the respective esters is five and six days.

Well 250 MIGHT be a tad high BUT remember a good deal of this 250 is in ester weight ...not all test bro. 250 of cyp has about 175 of actual test bro.
Clomid will have an affect if androgen levels are a little above normal(but not much) And also remember there is no penalty in starting clomid too soon anyway.

Also, something to keep in mind tis that estrogen is a little more inhibitory on HPTA than testosterone and clomid blocks the affect of estrogen at the hypothalamus.

 

[samoth]

remember a good deal of this 250 is in ester weight ...not all test bro. There might be 150 of actual test in this mix.

Excellent point, I didn't even take this into consideration.

*Edit* Just saw your own edit, thanks for further clarification.

 

[bosundave]

OK, here's my 2 sheckels worth. In a recent conversation with a former Mr. Universe and former Mr. Olympia he shared HIS(not nec. mine) opinion on cycle length. He also swears he is a product of hard training and applied science, not genetics. I've heard that one before, but his deal is this: When stacking, always stack fast acting with fast acting and slow acting with slow acting. 4 weeks on (with no anti e's, maybe some proscar) and 2 weeks off with Hcg, 5000iu per week plus clomid. Then a change of speed and type of AAS and another 4 weeks on followed by 2 weeks off with HcG and clomid. Another change of AAS and 4 weeks on followed by 4weeks off finally after the 3rd cycle.Clomid for the full 4 weeks and HcG for 2or 3 weeks. Looks like this:

4 weeks on with sim. acting AAS
2 weeks off with HcG and clomid
change type and or speedof AAS
4 weeks on with sim acting AAs
2 weeks off with Hcg and clomid
Change type and or speed of AAS
4 weeks on with sim. AAS
4 weeks off with HcG and clomid
Repeat this year round

I myself can see alot of holes in this in this scietifically, but I thought I'd throw out HIS cycle history. I didnt argue with him, but I know him well unuf that he doesn't blow smoke about what HE does. He still looks great in any case.
OK guys, tear this approach apart I am interested.

 

[bebaumax]

Actually bro I was being a bit "general" with the week thing...enanthate has a half life of about 5 days and cyp has a half life of about 6 days....
I think what you may be referring to is the time that the ester exhibits an ananbolic affect with an average dose.

RG

Ok, bro, I totally understand using rough figures to point something out, that's cool. But where do you get your half-life times from? Here's what I have:

Depot steroids Drug Active half-life
Deca-durabolin (Nandrolone decanate) 15 days
Equipoise 14 days
Finaject (trenbolone acetate) 3 days
Primobolan (methenolone enanthate) 10.5 days
Sustanon or Omnadren 15 to 18 days
Testosterone Cypionate 12 days
Testosterone Enanthate 10.5 days
Testosterone Propionate 4.5 days
Testosterone Suspension 1 day
* Winstrol (stanozolol) 1 day

From here:
Muscletalk.co.uk half-life list

Now I'm curious, as that's a pretty big discrepancy.

I'm also curious, where did you get the idea that 250mg of cyp is 175mg of test and 75mg of ester? I've never heard of this, and the idea makes no sense to me at all. It would make dosing nearly impossible, as every time someone went to calculate a dose of something, they've have to know ester weight. I thought that had already been calculated in for you. ??? Help me out here, bud.. I mean, this would be like, Test suspension 200 = more test than test cyp 250. Is that true? Thanks for all clarifications, RG!
-B

 

[Lift Chief]

OK, here's my 2 sheckels worth. In a recent conversation with a former Mr. Universe and former Mr. Olympia he shared HIS(not nec. mine) opinion on cycle length. He also swears he is a product of hard training and applied science, not genetics. I've heard that one before, but his deal is this: When stacking, always stack fast acting with fast acting and slow acting with slow acting. 4 weeks on (with no anti e's, maybe some proscar) and 2 weeks off with Hcg, 5000iu per week plus clomid. Then a change of speed and type of AAS and another 4 weeks on followed by 2 weeks off with HcG and clomid. Another change of AAS and 4 weeks on followed by 4weeks off finally after the 3rd cycle.Clomid for the full 4 weeks and HcG for 2or 3 weeks. Looks like this:

4 weeks on with sim. acting AAS
2 weeks off with HcG and clomid
change type and or speedof AAS
4 weeks on with sim acting AAs
2 weeks off with Hcg and clomid
Change type and or speed of AAS
4 weeks on with sim. AAS
4 weeks off with HcG and clomid
Repeat this year round

I myself can see alot of holes in this in this scietifically, but I thought I'd throw out HIS cycle history. I didnt argue with him, but I know him well unuf that he doesn't blow smoke about what HE does. He still looks great in any case.
OK guys, tear this approach apart I am interested.

Bump for comments on this approach. I'm also interested. I suppose this type of cycle would be for someone competing though because the time on=time off rule is not being followed.

 

[bosundave]

I also recall this Pro BB saying that the short 4 week cycles help keep a lot of the sides from taking a firm grip, u know, gyno, acne, etc. One of the problems right away seems to me starting clomid therepy so soon after a slow acting , long half life ester. I dunno?? What does anyone else think. If nothing else, this approach is interesting. To say that is rare, does not nec. mean its not real effective.

 

[Realgains]

Ok, bro, I totally understand using rough figures to point something out, that's cool. But where do you get your half-life times from? Here's what I have:

Depot steroids Drug Active half-life
Deca-durabolin (Nandrolone decanate) 15 days
Equipoise 14 days
Finaject (trenbolone acetate) 3 days
Primobolan (methenolone enanthate) 10.5 days
Sustanon or Omnadren 15 to 18 days
Testosterone Cypionate 12 days
Testosterone Enanthate 10.5 days
Testosterone Propionate 4.5 days
Testosterone Suspension 1 day
* Winstrol (stanozolol) 1 day

From here:
Muscletalk.co.uk half-life list

Now I'm curious, as that's a pretty big discrepancy.

I'm also curious, where did you get the idea that 250mg of cyp is 175mg of test and 75mg of ester? I've never heard of this, and the idea makes no sense to me at all. It would make dosing nearly impossible, as every time someone went to calculate a dose of something, they've have to know ester weight. I thought that had already been calculated in for you. ??? Help me out here, bud.. I mean, this would be like, Test suspension 200 = more test than test cyp 250. Is that true? Thanks for all clarifications, RG!
-B

I have known about half lives for years ...can't put a finger on any particular web site.

Seems like the quotes you have above are way off bro...they may be talking about the time the hormone is most active or ananbolic.

ie:The half life of tren is NOT 3 days for sure...its about a day.
Deca isn't 15 days and EQ isn't 14 thats for sure.
And test suspension and oral winstrol have a half life of hours not 24 hours.
All the others are off too.

The estimate I gave you in regard to actual test in 250 of test is correct....a fairly decent portion is in ester weight bro.

I will check out that site though and see what the heck they are referring to.

RG

 

[Lift Chief]

I have known about half lives for years ...can't put a finger on any particular web site.

Seems like the quotes you have above are way off bro...they may be talking about the time the hormone is most active or ananbolic.

ie:The half life of tren is NOT 3 days for sure...its about a day.
Deca isn't 15 days and EQ isn't 14 thats for sure.
And test suspension and oral winstrol have a half life of hours not 24 hours.
All the others are off too.

The estimate I gave you in regard to actual test in 250 of test is correct....a fairly decent portion is in ester weight bro.

I will check out that site though and see what the heck they are referring to.

RG

RG can you list what you think the half lives are? I also got my information from muscletalk.co.uk

 

[bebaumax]

I have known about half lives for years ...can't put a finger on any particular web site.

Seems like the quotes you have above are way off bro...they may be talking about the time the hormone is most active or ananbolic.

ie:The half life of tren is NOT 3 days for sure...its about a day.
Deca isn't 15 days and EQ isn't 14 thats for sure.
And test suspension and oral winstrol have a half life of hours not 24 hours.
All the others are off too.

The estimate I gave you in regard to actual test in 250 of test is correct....a fairly decent portion is in ester weight bro.

I will check out that site though and see what the heck they are referring to.

RG

You know, I never even paid attention to the ones I knew off the top of my head, but, duh, they are a bit long there, aren't they?

I am still a bit lost on this total amount of test issue. Can you tell me where you got your info on this, or where I can find more? Thanks, bud.
-B

 

[Realgains]

RG can you list what you think the half lives are? I also got my information from muscletalk.co.uk

Well half lives are not an exact science bro. Also some things affect their half life....like the size of a person. Generally the large man will have a steroid clear quicker than a small man so half life is affected by size.

GENERAL ESTIMATES

D-bol 4-7 hours
Winstrol orally 10 hours
Winny IM ...not in ester but takes about a week to clear
Anavar 9 hours
Anadrol 10hours
Halo 9-10 hours

Suspension about 100 minutes
Acetate about 1-1.5 days
Prop 1.5-2 days
Phenylprop 2-3 days
Enanthate 5-7 days
Cyp 6-8 days
Deca 8-9 days
Undecylenate 10 days
Laurate maybe 12 days

Keep in mind that these are estimates....the estimates you got are far too long IMHO.

RG

 

[Lift Chief]

Thanks RG

 

[mike1234555]

2 day cycle help

Realgains this is the most interesting and informative discussion i have read on this board.I have been doing plenty of reading lately and i plan on giving this a shot.My stats

41yo 190lbs 5ft 10in 4th cycle

2 week cycle
day 1 tren 150mg
day 1 prop 300mg
day 2-14 tren 75mg ed
day 2-13 prop 100mg ed
day 14 300mg clomid
wk 3,4,5 50mg ed
roughly 3000 clean calories a day
250g protien ed
rala 300or400mg ed
flagseed oil 100mg ed


Any comments or additions or subtractions would be helpful.

 

[John G]

Any new updates

Any updates from people who have tried this method?

 

[OMEGA]

For what it's worth, someof you might a piece I wrote back in 1997 called STEROIDS FOR HEALTH that advocated the use of short cycles. It had some innacuracies (as did all the information on roids at that time) but the premise stll holds true. The body cannot maintain huge gains that are too abrupt. Plus, the longer you're on, the longer you're supressed. Gaining 5-6 pounds at a clip is the way to go. Of course, that isn't enough for some people. But do you have any idea how long it would take to gain five solid pounds of muscle naturally? Most people couldnt do it in a year. Yet, 4 short cycles a year will yield 20 pounds. And you KEEP it!

I don't agree with the method that was proposed here, however. I'm currently putting together new information that will update the SFH principles. For now, I'll say that one injectable and one oral is all you need. I would no longer recommend Deca and I'd never use vet stuff -- anxiety, flu symptoms, allegies -- something is obviously not right. But people ignore this evidence and contnue to use them.

what do you recommend then?

 

[atticdog]

realgains
i would like to try a 2 week cycle in a few weeks
how exactly would you recomend a tren and dbol cycle?

 

[Big Jroy]

Interesting post, I like it!

 

[The_Eviscerator]

I plan on following the 2-week protocol for this year. I plan on doing 7 2-week cycles beginning on February 7th.


A typical Cycle will look like this: 50mg of D-bol a day, 50 mg of Winny per day, 75mg of tren perday and 50 mg of Prop per day. On the first 3 days I will frontload Redstar's Primo Acetate/Enanthate blend.

I will take Femara at 2.5 mg's a day througout the two weeks and a week after.

I have tried 4 week cyles with success, and 12 week cyles... and honestly I got great results from the 4 week cycles and a lot of diminishing returns from the 12 week cycles. It just seems like a waste of gear after 6 weeks.

I am interested to see how I react to the 2 week on, 4 week off protocol.

 

[NedWood]

I wasn't to sure about doing a two week cycle. After reading what realgains had to say about it I thought i would try it.
I've been lifting for around five years i've only done one short 6 week cycle of test enathate.
What I used for my two weeker was d-bol and test prop. I just finished by the way.
I gained a total of 9 pounds in that two weeks. Hopefully I'll keep every pound but I'll have to wait and see. I know I look a little bigger on some body parts so I must of gained something it might be a little water but I don't think so because i'm a little harder thab i was when I started.

All I gotta say is thanks for the good post Realgains.

 

[Counterstrike]

did your strength go up? b/c some people don't care about wieght gaims just improving strength thats why i don't care for 2 weekers i would prefer 4-6 weekers to reuce bfand get quality muscle not just do a fast cycle and blow up with probably just water weight 2 weeks is not much for strength increase

 

[NedWood]

My strengh did go up the second week. I was lifting a little more weight than usual.
I just finished my 2 weeks so I will have to wait and see if lose weight and strengh. I don't really try for strengh anymore because my joints are already getting worked hard and cause me some pain.

 

[drveejay11]

Where in the hell are all the tresident GURU'S??? How come you have NOT posted YOUR thoughts on this? This seems to be catching fire. Is this logic "sensible".....with any merit?

BigAndy
Andy13
Macro
Huck
Zyg
Lawnsaver
Frackal
Bouncer
Quad

Kind of od that FONZ is the only one with anything to comment on this one?!? And he didn't have too much to say (odd )

Are you fellas just "staying away from this one"?

 

[drveejay11]

Where in the hell are all the resident GURU'S??? How come you have NOT posted YOUR thoughts on this?

BigAndy
Andy13
Macro
Huck
Zyg
Frackal
Bouncer
Quad


I find it REALY strange that FONZ is the only one with anything to comment on this one?!? And he didn't have too much to say (odd )

It seems as if you Vets are "staying away from this one"!Why?
It is a VERY THOUGHT-PROVOKING/EDUCATIONAL thread.

This seems to be catching fire. Is this logic "sensible".....with any merit?

 

[Triple J]

I plan on following the 2-week protocol for this year. I plan on doing 7 2-week cycles beginning on February 7th.


A typical Cycle will look like this: 50mg of D-bol a day, 50 mg of Winny per day, 75mg of tren perday and 50 mg of Prop per day. On the first 3 days I will frontload Redstar's Primo Acetate/Enanthate blend.

Just a comment on the use of prop and enanthate. I am not sure what your dosing schedule was with the prop, but even with one shot of enanthate, I am thinking this would extend your time on beyond two weeks. My understanding is, consider total clearance to be 3-5 x half-life. So with just one shot of enanthate you are looking at 30 days to clear (half-life approx 10.5 days). With prop, the half-life is 4.5 days.

This is an issue I am grappling with now. I kicked off my current short cycle with a shot of enanthate but am looking to extend a dbol am bridge to a full four weeks to be sure the enanthate is cleared before taking the two weeks off. Beyond two weeks the enanthate will not be high enough to help your gains but there will be enough to hinder your recovery.

So my thoughts now are to make an effective test base for a two week cycle will require susp or something like that, rather than an ester.

 

[The_Eviscerator]

Just a comment on the use of prop and enanthate. I am not sure what you dosing schedule was with the prop, but even with one shot of enanthate, I am thinking this would extend your time on beyond two weeks. My understanding is, consider total clearance to be 3-5 x half-life. So with just one shot of enanthate you are looking at 30 days to clear (half-life approx 10.5 days). With prop, the half-life is 4.5 days.

Hmmm... I may cut out the Primo Enanthate and just go with the Acetate ester. I think it will be very crucial for everything to clear out quickly after week 2.

 

[drveejay11]

Where in the hell are all the resident GURU'S??? How come you have NOT posted YOUR thoughts on this?

BigAndy
Andy13
Macro
Huck
Zyg
Frackal
Bouncer
Quad


I find it REALY strange that FONZ is the only one with anything to comment on this one?!? And he didn't have too much to say (odd )

It seems as if you Vets are "staying away from this one"!Why?
It is a VERY THOUGHT-PROVOKING/EDUCATIONAL thread.



This seems to be catching fire. Is this logic "sensible".....with any merit?

120 responses and none of the guru's wanna jump in???

U-N-B-E-L-I-E-V-A-B-L-E

 

[Frackal]

I'm not a Guru

 

[Saint7]

Hey Realgains, What about doing 500mg of sus e/wk 75mg of fina ed/2wks and 10mcg of t3 ed/2wks, with 4 wks off? Saint7

 

[The_Eviscerator]

Hey Realgains, What about doing 500mg of sus e/wk 75mg of fina ed/2wks and 10mcg of t3 ed/2wks, with 4 wks off? Saint7

Sustanon has too many longer acting esters to be used in a short cycle. Stick to propionate or Suspension.

 

[Lumberg]

I will take Femara at 2.5 mg's a day througout the two weeks and a week after.

I don't think the Femara is necessary. Or at least that much. Femara is an INCREDIBLY strong anti-E.

Read the first posts, where RG mentions Estrogen. You do not want to hit the anti-Es that hard. Probably not at all.

JC

 

[The_Eviscerator]

I have never used Femara, so thanks for the warning. maybe I can use it every other day. Saves me some money in the process.

 

[Lumberg]

I have never used Femara, so thanks for the warning. maybe I can use it every other day. Saves me some money in the process.

In all honesty, you could probably get away with .5mg EOD. Seriously.

JC

 

[The_Eviscerator]

In all honesty, you could probably get away with .5mg EOD. Seriously.

JC

I tend to bloat easily on D-bol and Prop so I will stick with 2.5 eod. When I use Tren acetate and Primo acetate as my base, I will follow your advice.

 

[Lumberg]

I tend to bloat easily on D-bol and Prop so I will stick with 2.5 eod. When I use Tren acetate and Primo acetate as my base, I will follow your advice.

Ideally, you want that estrogen sweet spot where there isn't so much that you bloat up but there is still some floating around to aid with gains. at 2.5 mg EOD there will be ZERO estrogen in your body. period.

IMO the best way to do it is perhaps start with 2.5 mg once and wait a few days. When you start to bloat up try 1.5 mg. If that cures it completely in a few days try .5 mg. And so on.

This is because the 1/2 life of Femara is very long (like 2 1/2 days)

JC

 

[Zombikiller]

bump!
im gonna do one of these on feb 3rd

it will look like this...

day 1-14 30mg dbol
day 1-1 300mg prop ED
day 2-11 100mg prop ED

day 15 300 mg clomid
day 16 - 25 100 mg
day 26 - 37 50 mg

 

[Zombikiller]

bumpity bump!

 

[riley6]

RG,

Could you incorporate GH in the 2 week cycles or use it throughout them?

 

[Zombikiller]

bump da funk

 

[The_Eviscerator]

RG,

Could you incorporate GH in the 2 week cycles or use it throughout them?

My take on GH is this: If you do not have enough to use for a year straight, don't bother. GH would be a great addition to anyones supplement regimen... unfortunately it isn't very economical.

 

[Andy13]

VETERINARIAN DRUGS ARE NOT MEANT FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION!

The proof is in the fact that so many of them cause side effects of unknown origin -- anxiety, flu symptoms, hives, night sweats, flucuations i temperature, etc. Besides, the purity guidelines are not the same.

Trenbolone is also very kidney toxic.

Sorry if you posted this already and I missed it.. But, do you have a reference(s) for trenbolone kidney toxicity? I've heard the anecdotal yay's and nah's, but frankly, at least for BBing, I don't find most anecdotal reports to be worth a shit.

Aside,
I understand your viewpoint on veterinarian compounds and side-effects, as you mention.

Am I correct in assuming that your standpoint falls around purity of the product, not the AAS itself? In other words, you don't feel that TRENBOLONE or another vet drug has intrinsic properties that make it more or less suitable for humans.. just that immpurities make these less-suitable human drugs in your opinion.. Correct?


Andy

 

[Joey_Zazza]

-REALGAINS

You really know your shit. I will be e-mailing you private so you can custimise something for me.

Thanks!

Joey Zazza

 

[Zombikiller]

need some replies here guys...

 

[Zombikiller]

once again...

BUMP!

 

[The_Eviscerator]

bump!
im gonna do one of these on feb 3rd

it will look like this...

day 1-14 30mg dbol
day 1-1 300mg prop ED
day 2-11 100mg prop ED

day 15 300 mg clomid
day 16 - 25 100 mg
day 26 - 37 50 mg

The cycle looks great... personally I would add some tren at 75ed as well, but this is a good start.

 

[40butpumpin]

How much damage to HDL should I expect to see with a two week cycle of oral winny at 50mg ed? I realize this is very difficult, if not impossible question to answer with any accuracy, however, I'd appreciate hearing some opinions anyway. Doing cyp, prop, npp now and would like to finish up with two weeks of winny at the end.

 

[40butpumpin]

bump for some opinions

 

[tbro]

Don't forget to take 1.5 grams of non time released Niacin along with those essential fatty acids while "on"...for the lipid profile.

RG

realgains

what is the purpose for the niacin?

 

[Lumberg]

realgains

what is the purpose for the niacin?

uh....he just said.....for the lipid profile.

 

[gnostic]

Would this 2 weeks on and four weeks on work just as well if I was using only fina and clomid? Has anyone tried this before?

 

[MGoBlue97]

How much damage to HDL should I expect to see with a two week cycle of oral winny at 50mg ed? I realize this is very difficult, if not impossible question to answer with any accuracy, however, I'd appreciate hearing some opinions anyway. Doing cyp, prop, npp now and would like to finish up with two weeks of winny at the end.

You should be fine considering its only 2weeks. Just make sure
you start using a anti-E a couple days before you go off.

 

[EL GAUCHO]

I think you may have answered this already, sorry if you have:

Could this be used with a Winny only cycle:
2 weeks @50mg
2 weeks off (Clen?)
2 weeks @50mg
2 weeks off (Clen)
2 weeks @50mg

Or am I better off running the Winny for 6 weeks straight?
I know you say about adding another class steroid in there too but want to run Winny on its own.
Thanks,
EL GAUCHO

 

[EL GAUCHO]

Bump for the above

 

[EL GAUCHO]

Bump

 

[runner]

Would this 2 weeks on and four weeks on work just as well if I was using only fina and clomid? Has anyone tried this before?

i'm trying this...just finished my first two weeks of fina. i'm pleased with the results.

what i'm wondering is: with fina's very short half-life, would i need to take the full four weeks off or could i do a 2 on, 3 off routine?

 

[EL GAUCHO]

Bump for Winny questions?

 

[CAESAR7]

bump...just because this is a great thread

 

[RRR]

i'm trying this...just finished my first two weeks of fina. i'm pleased with the results.

What are your results so far??

 

[jh1]

Realgains -

Great Info!

One Question, I suppose I would like to ask both RealGains and Nelson Montana :

What would a safe and beneficial cycle look like using drugs a doctor can prescribe in the US?

Most Test is legal, Deca, Anavar, Winstrol, and a few other AAS is legal. I can provide a detailed list if necessary.

JH1

 

[Realgains]

Realgains -

Great Info!

One Question, I suppose I would like to ask both RealGains and Nelson Montana :

What would a safe and beneficial cycle look like using drugs a doctor can prescribe in the US?

Most Test is legal, Deca, Anavar, Winstrol, and a few other AAS is legal. I can provide a detailed list if necessary.

JH1

I don't think you can get winstrol legally. Deca is no good for a short cycle as it is too long acting .

A "Bill Roberts" type two weeker would look like the following..

#1. Test prop 300mg on day one followed by 100mg per for 11 days. Also Anavar 50mg per day for 14 days. Clomid on day 15 and for 3 weeks minimum. Have clomid or Nolva on hand for gyno protection just in case.

OR

#2. test cyp or enanthate 750mg on day one for one shot only and then anavar 50mg per day for 14 day with clomid starting on day 15.

OR
#3. Nandrolone phenylprop(not sure you can get it in the USA) at 300mg on day one and then 125 mg every day for 10 or 11 days. Anavar 50mg per day for 14 days. Clomid on day 15.

#1 above would give the best results.

You could extend the cycle to three weeks but recovery of HPTA would be a little slower and Roberts recommends two weeks "on" as the max time "on" if recovery is to be as fast as possible.

NELSON MONTANA would prefer a three week cycle that wasn't so suppressive since he doesn't like clomid.

An example of a Montana cycle this hormones that one could get in the USA would likely look something like this, BUT it's best if Nelson answers... HELLO NELSON

....Test sust, cyp or enanthate 250mg on day one and then 100mg on day 3 then 100 on day 5 and another 100 on day 7. Also anavar 30mg per day for the entire 3 weeks. Proviron at 25 mg per day for 5 days at the end of the cycle..NO CLOMID

Nelson acturally perfers Primo/d-bol but I don't think you can get primo is the USA and definately NOT d-bol.

I think you can get anandrol but I don't like this hormone and either does Nelson....BUT....at 50mg /day it could be a powerful addition to an injectable.

RG

 

[jh1]

RealGains -

Awesome!!!!!!

Thanks for taking the time to reply. Here is some addtional information regarding what I know to be legal via a script here in the states:

Nandrolone (Deca)
Oxandrolone (Anavar)
Oxymetholone (Anadrol)
Fluoxymesterone (Halotestin)
Stanazolol (Winstrol)

And of course all Test esters... does the availablity of any of this change anything?

I assume Clomid and Nolva are available via a script??

I hate to ask you to answer for Nelson... but if you know why he doesn't like Clomid, fill me in.

JH1

 

[Realgains]

RealGains -

Awesome!!!!!!

Thanks for taking the time to reply. Here is some addtional information regarding what I know to be legal via a script here in the states:

Nandrolone (Deca)
Oxandrolone (Anavar)
Oxymetholone (Anadrol)
Fluoxymesterone (Halotestin)
Stanazolol (Winstrol)

And of course all Test esters... does the availablity of any of this change anything?

I assume Clomid and Nolva are available via a script??

I hate to ask you to answer for Nelson... but if you know why he doesn't like Clomid, fill me in.

JH1

Well you could substitute winstrol for anavar. I don't like halo as I don't think it has very good ananbolic properties,although its a very powerful androgen, and its quite toxic. Anandrol and Halo are likely the most toxic roids out there so they don't really fit into the "mind set" of short safe cycles.

Nelson doeen't like clomid for several reasons..#1. he doesn't think it is necessary with his type of cycles #2. He thinks it can have somewhat bad sides in some. #3. He thinks it can also leed to HPTA suppression.

The clomid issue has been gone over any times...you may wish to review my old post on "clomid, what why how"

RG

RG

 

[jh1]

In what situations would one use Wintstrol - and in what situations would one use Anavar...

or is one simply better for a short cycle than the other?

Great Advice -

JH1

 

[Realgains]

In what situations would one use Wintstrol - and in what situations would one use Anavar...

or is one simply better for a short cycle than the other?

Great Advice -

JH1

Winstrol if money was an issue and anavar if your hair is an issue...also anavar is a bit easier on the old liver. Anavar is an all round better hormone IMHO...trouble is it's expensive.

These two are not the best choice though as I feel d-bol is better for mass on a two weeker.

Oh...if you were going to run nandrolone phenylprop then I would run the winstrol with it as many belive that winny counters the PR activation of nandrolone..they also are somehow synergestic and make for a good building stack.

RG

 

[gunner44]

2 Weeks works for me !

I would like to chime in here on these 2 week cycles. I now have 2 under my belt and I can say for sure that they are not "voodoo" or "bullshit". Done right you can get decent results.

For starters, I think people need to be aware of the side effects of tren, especially when combined with other estrogenic AAS. Tren Acetate seems to be a good choice since it is a short acting ester, but beware.

Tren can AND does act like a progestin. It causes mamery tissue stimulation in existing breast tissue which explains whay a lot of tren users get sore nips, but no gyno. If you ALREADY have excess mamery tissue from past bouts with gyno, then you will be milky in no time. No Kidding!!

When you combine Tren with high levels of an estrogenic AAS like D-bol and or Prop, then you have a potentially ugly situation.

Tren seems to raise progestrerone levels through conversion into progesterone as well as acting as a progestin (ie. progesterone receptor agonist).

If you choose to use Tren in short cycles, I would recommend only moderate dosage of estrogenic AAS otherwise your new tits will be fully functional !

I have also found out first hand that mixing high doses of Tren and Anadrol is a very BAD IDEA !! Way too much progestenic related sides going on. Dont do it !

Progesterone related sides and gyno are very difficult to understand and IMPOSSIBLE to fight off ! Estrogen related gyno can be combatted; PROGESTIN/PROGESTERONE related gyno CANNOT!!!

If you feel the need to hammer down Tren with Prop and you have never done it before, then BE CAREFULL and use a moderate amount of anti-e's during your cycle and POST cycle for sure to control estrogen levels. I personally have run 10mg NOLVADEX but still got sore nips with Tren/Prop at HIGH doses.

If you are gyno prone STAY THE HELL AWAY from Tren and anything estrogenic unless you know how to manage your estrogen levels.

Gunner Out

 

[psroth]

Prostate health

If one were to do this type of cycling for a lifetime (but maybe even a more conservative version with 6 weeks off) would there be aggravation to the prostate?

The reason I ask is because of all the negative press to prostate cancer caused by extra test or general AAS usage. Would this be the best cycle to prevent this, or will even this inflamate the prostate? If so, is there such a thing as a safe cycle that causes no inflamation of the prostate?

 

[Realgains]

Well excess test(and probably other androgens) are a proven issue if there is already cancer cells present. If there is even a few cancer cells they will feed off the test, and probably other androgens as well.

I had elevated PSA after a long cycle of test/tren...it turned out to be from prostatitis but my urologist warned me that at least in theory taking test and other gear could cause cancer. That is not proven but it makes some sence to me and my doc.

The weak androgens are easier on the prostate that test for example but they don't work that well in a short cycle IMHO.

RG

 

[gunner44]

DHT and Proscar

I would think that Proscar would limit the conversion to DHT in the prostate tissue and help to controll swelling and possibly other sides if you are using test prop.

It is my understanding that Proscar is effecive in certain tissues, including the prostate and scalp.

Any thoughts on the possible of benefits of finasteride when on these heavy 2 week cycles?


Gunner Out

 

[gunner44]

I was thinking of trying something like this

Front load Test enth 1000mg on day 1 and then again on day 2

with D-bol at 35 mg's per day for the 2 weeks?

Any thoughts on this?

THat really isnt the idea Bro, you would need to use Test Prop daily with a 1 day front load then the prop ED or EOD.

Your blood levels would be pretty crazy with a front load of 1000mg on day 1 and 2.

You can try it...but you would basically be doing a FUCKING HUGE 1 week pyramid cycle with a HUGE spike in test levels and for sure a huge spike in estrogen levels in the first few days..then a slow taper going past day 14.

LEt me know if you end up with B-cups or A-cups ! LOL JK

 

[rjl296]

is there any way to do a 2 weeker with enthan at all then ?? or do you need prop or tren. i would like to do tren , but want to avoid gyno at any costs i have never ran a cycle before so i dont know how prone i would be. would it be safe to do tren @ 50 / day, w/ the dbol. or run prop instead.

 

[Realgains]

is there any way to do a 2 weeker with enthan at all then ?? or do you need prop or tren. i would like to do tren , but want to avoid gyno at any costs i have never ran a cycle before so i dont know how prone i would be. would it be safe to do tren @ 50 / day, w/ the dbol. or run prop instead.

IMHO you can use a long acting ester BUT it will be less effective since blood levels will not be great all the way through.

If you used a gram of test enanthate on day one then after a week you would have about 500mg circulatinga nd after two weeks you would still have 250 and thats still enough to inhibit...it would take another week for the test to clear enough to HPTA recovery to even start to decide to begin.

SO...yes you could use a gram but the cycle would be 3 weeks long.

500 would be better for a two weeker.

Best not to use two aromatizable hormones at one time ...try test and tren oR tren and d-bol.
IF you have nolva on hand(20mg per day) then you will not get gyno as long as you take the stuff as soon as you sence sore nipples while rubbing them with soap in the shower each day as a test.

Pretty much impossible to get gyno with nolva use IF it hasn't already started.

Some say that tren causes gyno but I do not believe this.

 

[rjl296]

when you say test and tren , you mean test prop right? or is front loading @ 500 mg on day one with enthan sufficient.

or is this just a dumb idea to use enthan at all ??

 

[Realgains]

when you say test and tren , you mean test prop right? or is front loading @ 500 mg on day one with enthan sufficient.

or is this just a dumb idea to use enthan at all ??

PROP is best.

RG

 

[Realgains]

Rememeber short cycles are not for the highly competitive but they will give recreational users nice gains, and far better than training naturally, with few sides. Also, you will keep a higher percentage of those gains due mainly to fast HPTA recovery.

They are ideal for the man that is just trying to get to his natural maximum weight/developement fairly quickly, instaed of taking ten years or more as a natural to accomplish that.

I have put very advanced natural trainees on two-three weekers and they have kept 5-7 pounds of solid muscle and finially made it to their natural max developement.....which BTW is pretty impressive in most ie: 5'9 or 10" and a lean, 190-195.

SO ...I don't want to hear anyone say that they "don't work"... they sure the hell do ...but not if you are already 40 pounds above your natural max weight.

Guys the truth is that once you get way above your natural potential then very large doses of gear are used to get freaky...pro's take up to 4 grams of test per week plus other gear AND slin and GH and for long cycles.....but if you are not a pro then you are a bloody idiot to do that.

RG

 

[Lift Chief]

Rememeber short cycles are not for the highly competitive but they will give recreational users nice gains, and far better than training naturally, with few sides. Also, you will keep a higher percentage of those gains due mainly to fast HPTA recovery.

They are ideal for the man that is just trying to get to his natural maximum weight/developement fairly quickly, instaed of taking ten years or more as a natural to accomplish that.

I have put very advanced natural trainees on two-three weekers and they have kept 5-7 pounds of solid muscle and finially made it to their natural max developement.....which BTW is pretty impressive in most ie: 5'9 or 10" and a lean, 190-195.

SO ...I don't want to hear anyone say that they "don't work"... they sure the hell do ...but not if you are already 40 pounds above your natural max weight.

Guys the truth is that once you get way above your natural potential then very large doses of gear are used to get freaky...pro's take up to 4 grams of test per week plus other gear AND slin and GH and for long cycles.....but if you are not a pro then you are a bloody idiot to do that.

RG

Do you think 2 weekers or 3 weekers are best...?

 

[Realgains]

2 weeks are best if you are very concerned about the fastest recovery of HPTA and the avoiding as many sides and negative health implications as possible.

3-4 weekers will give better gains but with slower recovery and more potential sides.

4 weeks is the limit to what I call ashort cycle or a safe cycle length.

RG

 

[browncloud]

Realgains I need some advice, I did my first 2 weeker about 4 weeks ago now and it consisted of tren/prop/winny/ and var. I got and extreme about of bloat from the test. I was also running arimidex at .05mg a day. Now should i up my dose of arimidex to 1mg a day and use proviron? Also how long before you frontload the test should i start the arimidex? does it make a diffrence?
last cycle i frontloaded 300mg and ran 100 EOD for 8 days then stoped because i was so bloated. I also have some tren left from valopharm, and i just held it up to some light and it looked to be dirty, with some particals inside, almost looks like cotton, or glue wierd. Anyway i am not going to use it until i can fliter it, and have no idea where i can get a filter here in asia. Would appreciate your input.

 

[Realgains]

Realgains I need some advice, I did my first 2 weeker about 4 weeks ago now and it consisted of tren/prop/winny/ and var. I got and extreme about of bloat from the test. I was also running arimidex at .05mg a day. Now should i up my dose of arimidex to 1mg a day and use proviron? Also how long before you frontload the test should i start the arimidex? does it make a diffrence?
last cycle i frontloaded 300mg and ran 100 EOD for 8 days then stoped because i was so bloated. I also have some tren left from valopharm, and i just held it up to some light and it looked to be dirty, with some particals inside, almost looks like cotton, or glue wierd. Anyway i am not going to use it until i can fliter it, and have no idea where i can get a filter here in asia. Would appreciate your input.

Strange that you got so bloated so soon...but everyone is a little different.

Run 1mg for a couple day BEFORE you start the cycle and then 1mg per day while on.

Some people really react to test but don't as much to d-bol as far as bloat is concerned. You MAY wish to run a tren/d-bol/winny for 2-3 weeks next time, with little arimidex.

The problem with estrogen inhibitors is that if used correctly they prevent a great deal of estrogen from forming and this has some negative impact on gains. It does seem that estrogen helps with gains to some degree and this probably has to do with IGF-1 stimulation.

 

[browncloud]

RG thanks for the reply, I will use the arimidex at 1 mg a day before and on through the cycle. What about adding proviron too. Also should i run the arimdex until day 14 or longer?

 

[jboy]

My last eight week cycle of tren took over a month to recover from (using my sex drive as a gauge). I find it very hard to keep any of my gains because of the long recovery times, so I decided to try a short cycle. I finished a two week tren cycle about a month ago. My sex drive started to drop off during the last couple of days of the cycle, and about one week after my last shot my drive was way down. It took over three weeks for my sex drive to return to near normal.

Maybe it's just the way tren effects me, but my system seemed to shut down almost as hard from a two week cycle as it does on an eight week cycle. I love the aesthetic effect tren has on my body, I just wish I could keep more of the gains! I still have yet to find a way to speed up recovery. Maybe I'm just getting too old for gear?

 

[Realgains]

RG thanks for the reply, I will use the arimidex at 1 mg a day before and on through the cycle. What about adding proviron too. Also should i run the arimdex until day 14 or longer?

Through day 14 is good enough due to its half life.

Proviron?....not for estrogen inhibition as it isn't needed with the arimidex....BUT>>>>Proviron is a good thing to add to almost any stack as it strongly binds to steroid hormone binding proteins and this leaves more of the anabolic hormones unbound and this is good for anabolism.
Proviron after a cycle...NO...it is an androgen and will hinder hPTA recovery.

RG

 

[browncloud]

RG,

Thanks for the reply, I started the arimidex at 1 mg a day and will be front loading prop tommorow @ 300mg. I will keep you posted on what happens.
I am saving the tren i have for my next two weeker, because i need to filter it before i can use it. I live in Thailand so you can't get tren here very easy. Also I am going to have a buddie of mine ship me out a fiter from the states. Then I will be doing the tren/dbol/winny cycle.

 

[arigold]

UP!UP!UP!

 

[gunner44]

IMHO you can use a long acting ester BUT it will be less effective since blood levels will not be great all the way through.

If you used a gram of test enanthate on day one then after a week you would have about 500mg circulatinga nd after two weeks you would still have 250 and thats still enough to inhibit...it would take another week for the test to clear enough to HPTA recovery to even start to decide to begin.

SO...yes you could use a gram but the cycle would be 3 weeks long.

500 would be better for a two weeker.

Best not to use two aromatizable hormones at one time ...try test and tren oR tren and d-bol.
IF you have nolva on hand(20mg per day) then you will not get gyno as long as you take the stuff as soon as you sence sore nipples while rubbing them with soap in the shower each day as a test.

Pretty much impossible to get gyno with nolva use IF it hasn't already started.

Some say that tren causes gyno but I do not believe this.

You must be one of the luck ones. Tren can cause gyno especially when estrogen levels get out of hand.

If you are not sure how prone you are to gyno...then you need to do one steroid at a time to evaluate your tollerance level.

I would never recommend a newbie use tren with d-bol , test. or any other estrogenic AAS until they have done a tren only cycle.

You need to look at your own natural breast development before you go out and enhance it with steroids.

Yes, all men have some amount of breast tissue hiding under there.

Tren is not a newbie drug to be stacked recklessly until you are famaliar with it. Same goes for high doses of test.

As far as doing BOTH on a beginner cycle...well I am not in favor of that AT ALL. Gotta be safe people.

 

[82Bruiser]

Gunner,

can gyno be a problem with 2 week cycles? 75mg tren ed for 15 days followed by clomid? Would D-bol ed add to this problem even though its only for 2 weeks?

 

[gunner44]

I started to experience sore nips after 8 days, so I tihnk gyno can occur very rapidly. Even on 2 week cycles.

I was on Tren 75mg ED,Prop 100 mg Ed and D-bol 30,ED
with nolvadex and Liquidex daily as well to controll estrogen.

I dropped the D-bol and Prop IMMEDIATLY and switched to WInstrol for the last 6 days of my 2 weeker.

Soreness went away in about 2 days.

Dont use my dosage to guage your cycle. It was harsh, even for me, and iam 225ish and 8-9%.

Never got any sides frm over 1.5 grams of test in the past.
So i blame it on the prolactin/estrogen combination.

Next couple of cycles will be tren and winnie. Not that i believe that winnie will stop prolactin sides, just that it is short acting and does not aromatize.

If my DURABOLIN gets here soon , I might play with that. I want to see if it is really as progestinic as the tren.

 

[jh1]

Realgains -

Speaking of this subject of short cycles -

I know you recommend 2 weeks on 2 weeks off -or- 2 weeks on 4 weeks off for year 'round cycles

What do you recommend for 3 week Montana Cycles?

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Realgains]

Realgains -

Speaking of this subject of short cycles -

If I were to do a 2 week cycle - how long would you recommend I stay off before starting a new cycle - AND - how many cycles would be safe to do before you should take a longer break?


Same Question for 3 weeks cycles.

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Generally take at least 4 weeks off.

You can do 2 on 2 off but if you do more than a couple in a row then you should take 500iu's of HCG per day during the cycle to prevent testicular atrophy.

4-6 weeks off is enough at any rate.

With a three weeker I would take 6 weeks off.

The time off will allow for full HPTA recovery and give time for your blood lipid profile to return to normal.

RG

 

[jh1]

Realgains: Thanks Bro!

Dial_Tone:

Do you plan on using any other substances such as Anti-Es and the such?

 

[rjl296]

i plan on doing the following 2 weeker, 75 fina ed, 35 dbol everday. Should I have bromo and nolva on hand ??

 

[Realgains]

i plan on doing the following 2 weeker, 75 fina ed, 35 dbol everday. Should I have bromo and nolva on hand ??

I would have either nolva or clomid on hand to use to prevent gyno from the aromatizable gear.

Bromo doesn't work!

RG

 

[rjl296]

Bromo doesn't work!

RG

really ?? can you explain
is there any chance of geting prog. gyno, i know some people say it does happen, but you say its very rare. im confused

 

[Realgains]

really ?? can you explain
is there any chance of geting prog. gyno, i know some people say it does happen, but you say its very rare. im confused

Bromo may hinder T recovery and not help.

All steroids bind to the progesterone receptor and some more than others. Nandrolone and Tren bind the strongest to PR .
NO STEROID contains any, OR HAS AS ITS METABOLITE ,PROGESTERONE.

Progesterone or simple binding to the PR DOES NOT cause gyno .....only estrogen causes gyno. Now these progestogenic roids MAY contribute indirectly to gyno by increasing IGF-1 production at mammary tissue BUT GYNO WILL NOT DEVELOPE WITHOUT ESTROGEN.....it is a scientific impossibility.

Come over to www.cuttingedgemuscle and do a search on these issues to find the scientific abstracts as PROOF.

Best of luck in your short cycles.

RG

 

[jh1]

Realgains -

What are the reasons you choose Test over Deca in these cycles, and would that logic carry over to longer cycles?


Thanks
JH1

 

[jh1]

Dial_Tone...

So would you say Test would be the choice for the shorter cycle simply because it kicks in quicker? And that Deca is a better choice than test for a longer cycle?

JH1

 

[matto18]

so would a 2 week cycle with anavar be a possibility?

 

[jh1]

I don't know if anavar by itself would be enough. Definetly a good compliment to an IM AAS... like Test.