This is NOT a Fitness Center

[Hannibal]

Bob, so let's say you have a lifter who wants to be there, is giving 110%, will never quit, but for some reason or another will never total elite. does he get kicked out? i'm a 400 pound raw bencher. i want to bench 500 and will do whatever it takes to get there, but if i don't get there what happens? i don't want to come across sounding like a pussy but i don't think this approach is positive for someone new trying to get into this sport. how would you like it if your kids' teachers were using the same approach on them in school and they got kicked out for getting all B's, despite your kids putting forth their best effort? I think the goal here should be that the person is giving it all they got, not what the end result is.
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Pete,
I have never seen someone who gives an all out effort not produce. The problem is in the definition of all out effort. What many people perceive to be an all out focused effort is not what I would consider an all out focused effort. I truly believe that anyone can total ELITE. The real question is is that person willing to make all the sacrifices needed to get there. All of my guys train 10-14 times per week. That comes with a high personal price. Anyone willing to make the sacrifices will be successful.

My gym is not set up to try and get new people into the sport. My gym is set up to produce ELITES. There are plenty of places for the new lifter to train. I am not looking for the ordinary lifter, I am looking for the extraordinary lifter.

With that being said the majority of the lifters I have had never competed before and they do just fine. Again, I will only take a certain kind of person. Lou once told me he would never let anyone train with him that didn't scare him a little bit. That is what I look for in a lifter new to the sport. One of of 165s, Brandon Ward, had never lifted a weight in his life. He was a wrestler in high school, so I new he had to be tough. Brandon has an attitude to him. I have seen him get up guys faces who are twice his size in the gym. That is what I am looking for. Someone who isn't afraid and won't back down from anything.

I am not a school teacher and comparing my gym to the public education system is a very poor comparison. Public education is for everyone and my gym is not. My gym is invite only to those who want to do great things. I am not running little league where everyone gets to play at least three innings.

The goal at my gym will always be numbers. The day that changes is the day it's time for me to quit. Pete, I don't think we are going to agree on this issue. I'm not even going to say I'm right and you are wrong. What I am saying is this is how I do things at my gym. Will I ever change my opinion? HELL NO!

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Train Hard,
Bob

 

[Hannibal]

Dave & Bob: I think some of my comments are being misinterpreted. One of the questions I was asking is what happens to a lifter who, for some physical or genetic reason, stops making progress? Bob made the comment that he expects his lifters to total elite. So if someone comes in with a class IV total and progresses all the way to Master, but due to some physical limitation, was never meant to total Elite, what happens? Also, about the school example, I’m not comparing powerlifting to school. The point I’m trying to make is how would you feel if the schools were run the same way your gyms were? As a parent, I’d be all over some asshole who called my kids pieces of shit for getting all B’s instead of A’s. The point I’m trying to make here gentlemen is that it’s the effort that counts more so than the end result. Do you guys have any fun in this sport? Do you want to? Just because someone fails to produce elite numbers doesn’t mean he’s a failure in your gym. You guys make it sound like anything less is a failure. I just moved here to Columbus from New Jersey. I would love to train at Westside but due to work constraints and being a full time dad to two small kids, I can’t commit the time that Louie would demand, plus it appears that I don’t have the right personality for this. But hey, it’s your gym, your rules and obviously it produces great results. I take a hard line approach to certain, important things in my life but I view powerlifting as fun. Evidently you guys take it much more seriously than I do, but this is how you want it so I certainly respect it. Good luck at this week’s meet, I will see you there.
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Pete,
Are they expected to total their Elite? Yes, we strongly belive that everyone can. Do we have people in the gym that are still working on it after 15 or so years? Yes, there are a couple. Are we going to toss them out because of it? No, if they are a team player (go to meets and help, show up for all training sessions) and do what they are told to do they will always be welcome. Do they feel that they will total their elite? Yes they KNOW they will someday get their elite. This is what we want. We want those who honestly belive that one day they will get thier elite. We do not wnat those who pretend to want their elite. There are many other gyms for this. If in 5 years they still have not recieved their elite, will they be tossed out? Not if they still honestly belive it will happen. Yes, it is a very serious gym. For those in the gym powerlifting is viewed as a sport. Just as any other sport. In football or anything else at a high level you are expected to make it to pratice, do what the coaches tell you to do, give 100% or you will be traded or cut. Power lifting can be a hobbie for many and a sport for many others. I like all lifters if they are hobbiest or serious lifters and will do my best to help them all out. This is why we have this Q and A. We try to help everyone as much as we can with what we know and have learned. We base this on the experiances we have had with the sport and different gyms we have been a part of. There are many people I help on a daily bases that I could never train with, or would hate to train with. They do not place the sport as a high priority in their life and you know what? This is okay. There is nothing wrong with this but these people do not mix well with those who have a stronger passion for the sport. Power lifting is still fun for us but is very serious. I guess what I am saying is it is a full time thing for the guys at Westside and a part time thing for many of the readers of the Q and A. What we try to offer is the full time advice to everyone and let them figure out how they can implement it into their training. I am sure there are many things we say and do that many of our readers could not use in anyway or just think we are down right out of our minds. This is okay because it still comes down to fitting what is right for you into your own training and life style. We all have to grow up sometime and get a real life but I speak for myself when I say "I am just not ready yet" Maybe next year? Then again, I have said theat for the past 5 years.

If you do come to the meet please stop by our booth or find me out and introduce your self to me. I like meeting people who like to post on the Q and A. If you bring your kids I promiss to not call them any names. BTW: I would also be pissed if someone called my kid names. We keep this stuff in the gym with adults not kids. I love kids and would love you to bring them. Our sport needs more kids involved. BTW: If you do bring them they will be bored out of thier minds within two hours so I would not plan on staying long.
In case you all are interested everyone on this Q and A except Martin will be at the meet. Tom will come in Friday morning sometime to help with the booth. Paul will be in Friday or Sat to help with running the meet. John, Bob and Jim will all be lifting Sunday morning. Make sure to tell Bob I said he is a "piece of shit". Since he started all this I am sure he will get a kick out of this one. Just say "Hey Bob! Dave says your a piece of dirty dog crap".

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Hope to see you at the meet,
Dave

 

[Hannibal]

****UPDATED BY DAVE*****Much of the advice that I’ve been reading here is that it is acceptable, in the gym, to trash talk each other and disrespect each other in order to reach new strength levels. I read an article on this site where Louie doesn’t believe that gym members should respect one another while in the gym because everyone’s trying to outdo each other. What exactly do you guys say to each other? Do you call someone a piece of shit if he misses a lift? Does he get kicked out of the gym, despite giving 110% effort? If you’re at a meet and your competitor needs an 800 lb deadlift to overtake you and win the meet, are you going to encourage him? I’m not sure a positive message is being sent here. Powerlifting is a learning process, just like anything else in life. I’ve been living in Columbus for the last 4 years and I would love to train at Westside, but it appears that unless I’m putting up an elite total, no one there would want to take the time to “ENCOURAGE AND TEACH” me to get to that level. I have no problem putting in the effort, but is negative reinforcement really the way to go here? Please let me know if I’m misinterpreting anything here.
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Pete,
We are very hard on each other in the gym. We will say whatever it takes to get under someones skin. There is not much if anything off limits. What do we say? It will really vary based on what pisses that person off. Piece of shit will probably be considered a compliment after what I have said to many of my teammates.

People get kicked out for not making progress and not showing up. There are other things, but those are the main things. At a meet I hope all of the other lifters do well. I really don't give a shit where I finish. I never hope anyone misses a lift.

Positive message? Well, Westside isn't about positivity, it's about numbers. I have tried to model my gym after my experience at WBC. I fully brief all new members that they will be expected to total ELITE and anything less is not acceptable. I also tell them that the rest of the guys in the gym will try and make them quit. Then on the new members first day I offer to buy breakfast to anyone who makes that person quit in the first month right in front of them. I have paid up a bunch of breakfasts in the past two years.

I am not looking to be positive in the gym, I am looking for bad ass motherfuckers who won't quit. I actually won't even bother to coach a new lifter until they have been there for a month. I want to make sure they want this bad enough before I waste my time. Is that cold and mean? Sure it is. But, that is how you find out who wants to be there and who doesn't.

Westside isn't an encourage and teach environment. It is survival of the strongest. New members are thrown into the fire. They either rise up or leave. Again, it's cold, but that is the way it is.

Negative reinforcement has produced 57 ELITES in a 20x40 gym. Negative reinforcement has produced three ELITEs in my gym and we should have another three very soon. Some may not agree with how we do things in the gym. But, the results do justify the means.

************** What Bob says is very true about the gym. Louie has a motto for Westside that goes like this "We know what Westside can do for you but whay can YOU do for Westside?" We are always looking to spend our time helping new lifters in the gym but we are unwilling to help those who do not want to put 100% into it. We have a very close hardcore group of guys who work and interact as a group. No one lifter is better than the other and we are only as strong as the weakest in the gym. It is our job to bring the weaker guy up to a level higher than us. For example I have been around to see both Rob and Chester come in the gym and work there way up to kicking my ass to the ground. Did I talk shit to them? Yes I did. Do they talk shit to me know that they are better? Hell yes, they earned it and now it is there job to get my ass back on track. I have left the gym many times ready to rip the stearing wheel out of the dash because of something someone said. Then I learned a very important thing. What people say has nothing to do with how I feel about it. I decide how I will feel and react as I am the one who determines how the circumstances will effect me. How did I learn this? reread the above comments from Bob. many people think they can control how they feel or react but let me have them in the gym for one week and I will really let you know if they know how to control their emotions. How does this relate to powerlifting? A lifter who can't control his mental state will always have problems. I just returned for the WPO meet where I was helping Chuck Vogelpohl out. Chuck had problems cutting the weight this time and had a very very tough time in the warm up room because he was not totaly rehydrated. He was not flexing out of the bottom of the squat as he usally does. He looked nothing like he did in the gym. He opened with a high 900 squat and missed the first attempt and just looked fried. What did I tell him and what did he have to do? Nothing! He has learned how to deal with adversity and this was no big deal. If he missed again he would be out of the meet (in the WPO is you miss the first two you are out). He can back and made the lift on the second. Where did he learn this? You tell me............. -Dave
Post note: What you say about giving it your all is okay and possitive reinforce meet does work for kids in school but we are not kids in school anymore. We are athletes trying to do things that others dare not try. The same rules do not apply and I have found in the real word (business and sport) if you are always the nice guy you will get fu$%ed in a minute. You have to have a very thick skin and be very assertive and quick to react. The non assertive slow to react person will always be left behind. The real word is not a easy place and nothing will come easy to anyone regardless of what you have been told. I remember my first lesson on this as a kid. I came home from a fight where another kid poped me in the nose. I remember my Mom saying it would all be okay. Well I went back out and guess what? Is was not all okay. The guy was still down the street and kicked my ass again. It became okay when "I" decided it was okay. When you are under the bar there is only one person who will decide to push or stop when the weight gets to heavy. I hope you see what I am trying to say. I am not saying you all have to be dicks. You always have to have the best interest of your partners in mind. We do razz each other alot but always spend about 1/2 hour just BSing after a workout. If they quit in the gym they WILL quit in the meet and then "What can they really do for Westside?" Nothing! What can we do for them? That has been proven time and time again.

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Train Hard,
Bob

 

[k1401]

Hannibal, what are "YOU" trying to say? Just curious?

and by the way I went to the IPA's in Columbus today, only watched the 275's but saw and talked to alot of the Westsider's!
A GREAT bunch of guys!

 

[Hannibal]

Hannibal, what are "YOU" trying to say? Just curious?

and by the way I went to the IPA's in Columbus today, only watched the 275's but saw and talked to alot of the Westsider's!
A GREAT bunch of guys!

Just loved these Q&A replies..so I figured I would post them for people that don't read Dave's site.

 

[JDarty6173]

Good stuff Hannibal

 

[Liftbig]

hey k1401, did you see that guy today in the squat, who broke his leg. That was some scary stuff. ive never seen anything like that before. i know two lifters passed on attempts after that. I bet when you see that happend right before youre up, crazy stuff goes through your head.

 

[k1401]

It was NASTY ! Not sure how's he's doing right now. I hope he's ok. That's exactly what I was thinking, "how the hell do you lift after seeing that"

Hannibal, that's what I thought you were doing...

 

[natural-mike]

Hanny,

Good read.

I'm guessing none or few of the Westside guys are family men.

Peace,

Mike

 

[benchmonster]

Now I would not say that our training group (Okies and KC crew) is as hardcore as the Westside guys, nor nearly as strong. However, I have been razzed by bigokie on more than one occasion and have come back to get a lift that had just minutes earlier kicked my ass.

Not too long ago, we were pulling in the rack after a very tough squat workout, and I am, as many here know, a poor puller. We had I believe, something like 405 plus around 200 or so lbs of band tension, and I missed it. . . horribly.

I laid down on the floor after the attempt, thought I was going to pass out, saw stars, and look up and this big bald motherfu@*er is standing over me giving me shit!!! Now, realize folks, bigokie is as good of a freind as I have, but at this moment, I was none too happy with him, or anyone else in the world for that matter. And he starts giving me greif and betting me that there is no way I can pull this weight. It is too heavy, I am too weak, I am a midget, shit like that.

Well, when my turn got back around, I decided I did not care what it took, I was going to pull that damned weight. I switched my stance to sumo, which gives me a little advantage, and proceeded to pull the best pull of my life, locking it out, only to have a tendon in my left hand fray like a rope with too much tension on it. That tendon hurts to this day, but I pulled that weight.

Had he not been there giving me greif, I would have laid on that floor like a little bitch, and never even tried to pull that weight again that day. Had he given me "positive re-inforcement" then I doubt very seriously if I would have jumped up with the huevos necessary to lift that weight.

But that may be just how my personality works. I am weird. If you tell me I can't do something. I am too weak, too short, too white, too heavy, too small, whatever, then by God, I will figure out a way to prove you wrong even if I have to cheat to do it. That is the type attitude I try to bring to the gym, and it is the attitude I expect of the people I train with.

We (the KC/Okie crews) scare the Hell out of the normal people in any gym, even my gym, which is a pretty hardcore place. I call these normal gym people "mortals". We scare the mere mortals, and I look forward to a day when they are more scared than they are now. Lots of attitude and lots of plates on the bar makes my day. If I go a day in the gym without seeing stars, or slinging snot, or on a really good day, bleeding, then it was not worth the drive to the gym, IMO.

That my friends is what Hannibal was trying to say, I think.

Nothing wrong with recreational lifters, nothing wrong with someone for whom powerlifting is low on the priority list. But when you go to a meet, and you see the difference between the guys lifting in the first flight, and the guys lifting in the last flight, then I will almost guarantee you, the guys lifting last, who lift the most, are in all likelihood the guys who are the most hardcore and serious about their training.

B.