The Only SANE Way To Burn Fat

[Nelson Montana]

I'll get right to the point.

I don't believe in stimulents of any kind. Besides the fact that I feel like crap on them, they only agitate the nervous system, suppressing the appetite and ironically, forcing your metabolism to get SLOWER.

That's right. Remember at all times, the body is an adaptive mechanism. Try and speed it up, and it will retaliate in an effort to remain homeostasis by slowing down, hoarding fat. That's why I've never liked ephedra. And to all the people who swear by it, all I have to say is this...if it worked so well, why do you still need it? And why isn't everyone lean after years of ephedra use? Nah, it just gets you jacked. If that's what you want, fine. But as a fat loss supplement, it sucks out loud.

I won't even discuss DNP. I'm old school. I want to be strong and healthy. DNP doesn't fit into that plan.

So what's left? Cardio? Dont get me started.

Diet? No shit. But we all know that.

There's only one way to burn more fat than by simply expending more energy than calories and that's by hyping the thyroid. The only problem is, thyroid hormones are like any exogenous therapy in that they are suppressive. Some might argue that the thyroid will rebound much like the HPTA but I disagree. I think the thyroid is more delicate. But it's a moot point anyway since muscle grown from steroids is muscle. It can be maintained. Fat loss from thyroid drug use, can not be maintained. It's a dangerous game for a temporary fix. That's the bitch.

Nope, the only thing to do is to get your own thyroid working at full steam. But get this. There are probably things you're doing right now that are fucking up optimum thyroid function. Here are a few examples.

Cruciferous vegetables; Believe it or not, broccoli contains something called thiourea whih suppresses thyroid function.

Low carb diets: They slow the metabolism and hinder thyroid output.

Peaches: I love them. But they too impair thyroid fuction. Bananas are good.

Melatonin: Lowers body temperature. The thyroid in turn slows down to store fat. (Fat provides heat)

Green tea; This popular fat loss product contains flouride, which stunts T4 output.

Aspartame: Studies in rats showed that aspartame shut down thyroid function permanently.

TOFU: If you eat this shit in the name of health, you're kidding yourself. It's estrogenic and estrogen impairs thyroid function (which is why more women are hypothyroid)

Gugglesterones: Wait a minute, this stuff is sold in thyroid supplements, isn't it? Yeah. but it can also raise estrogen. (No wonder it clears acne)

Forskolin: Another popular thyroid supplement has been shown to exasperate prostate cancer. Fuck this stuff. I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole.

Okay, what's good?


Acetyl L Tyrosine: The key nutrient to a faster metabolism. Without it, your thyroid dies.


Kelp: A fave of Arnold and Zane. The old timers fat loss product still works. And iodine deficiency will cause hypothyroidism within days.


Selenium: The most overlooked nutrient in bodybuilding: It's what converts T4 into the fat burning T3. If your body doesn't convert the T4, it's useless.


Olive Leaf. Used for years as an immunity booster, recent studies show it improves thyroid fuction. A strong immune system usually means a strong thyroid. Almost all people with suppressed immunity systems also have suppressed thyroids.


Coconut oil. That's right. Saturated fat. This is supposed to be the worst stuff in the world for you, right? It improves thyroid function. More evidence that the so called experts don't know shit.


Thyroid gland Extract: Some may say it's folklore but that's what they said about desiccated thyroid gland even though it was used successfully for years for the treatment of hypothyroidism.


7 Keto DHEA. This is the shit. Plenty of evidence on this one. Even doctors will recommend NOT taking it if you take thyroid medication because it can raise thyroid output TOO MUCH. (So why don't they lower the dosage and recommend using 7 keto dhea?)
People who were diagnosed with low thyroid got their TSH levels into the normal range with just the use of 7 keto DHEA. This may be the best fat loss product on the market.


Okay, shameless plug coming up so if you
don't want to hear it, stop reading now. But I believe strongly in all these substances and research backs it up -- including my own personal experience. That's why I recommended them for Protein Factory.com's weight loss product ZIP! Honestly, if you're looking for something that will get you jacked, it's not for you. But if you're looking for something that will give focus and clarity and help burn fat on a consistent basis without suppression, there's nothing better. As a matter of fact, the more you use it, the better it is for your thyroid. It's a REAL thermogenic -- one that uses fat for fuel as opposed to raising body temperature through central nervous stimulants.

And BTW, stacking ZIP! with Thermorexin has got to be the most kick-ass fat loss combo EVER. (proceed with caution though)

Don't be a fool and use T3 or DNP or even overdose on stimulants use to gain the fat back once you stop. Eat right. Train hard. And try ZIP! or the ZIP!/T-Rex combo. It works.

 

[sk*]

I guess you posted this cause of my reply on the thread, well thanks for the reply.

Two things though:

1) You mentioned you don't like stimulants than you suggest thermorexin.

2) What kind of a diet do you suggest? Please don't say eat less, because for me being technical about diet is very important.

So you don't like keto, but what about something like Arnold suggested in his book? Low carbs, enough to be places right above ketosis?

-sk

 

[MR Pink]

I've got 2 questions to......

What do you think about clen?

Since PF didn't reply my email maybe you can answer this, when are the new supps you talked about available on their website (for the Europeans)?

Mr Pink

 

[Nelson Montana]

If you can tolerate stimulents T-Rex is one of the better pre-workout formulas, maybe the best. But as mentioned, permanent fat loss comes from a well functioning thyroid.

Low carbs is the way to go, but not ketosis.

Clen is a powerful stimulent and will not provide log lasting results. Down regulation from clen is quick.

The address is www.proteinfactory.com

 

[Bam Bam]

And I add to the question list- Do you not believe in cardio? If not, why not? BamBam

 

[Bam Bam]

If you can tolerate stimulents T-Rex is one of the better pre-workout formulas, maybe the best. But as mentioned, permanent fat loss comes from a well functioning thyroid.

Low carbs is the way to go, but not ketosis.

Clen is a powerful stimulent and will not provide log lasting results. Down regulation from clen is quick.

The address is www.proteinfactory.com

I went to the sight and can't find t-rex or zip. What is it under?

 

[chaquito]

is that the way Arnold & Co burn fat? didnt they just steroids to get ripped? i have allways wonder that one. Comon nelson, tell us more!!

C

 

[Goldprospector]

I am going to agree with Nelson to the extent of my experiences with the Thermo products. Unlike NM, I like the way that I feel when I am "jacked" on Ep, or T-rex. I have use EAC stacks for about 14 years and I guess I have taken them more for the stimulation than the fat loss, but either way, if the shit worked all that great, then I should be skinny as a rail. But I am not. I always had to cycle off of them because they would seem to lose their effectiveness and I would always eat like hell and get lazy while OFF.
I have tried T-rex and I love the "feeling" from it anf the energy is great. But I have gotten more irritable to say the least and the waking up to piss 3 or four times a night is a drag.
I have not tried "ZIP" but I have spent my money on just about everything else on the market...so I will probably try this one to.

 

[Nelson Montana]

I went to the sight and can't find t-rex or zip. What is it under?

Click on "News" on the front page.

 

[Mavy]

And I add to the question list- Do you not believe in cardio? If not, why not? BamBam

Shit man dont get started on this. This has been played to death. If you want lots of reading to do ... do a search on Cardio.

Mavy

 

[JG1]

Shit man dont get started on this. This has been played to death. If you want lots of reading to do ... do a search on Cardio.

Mavy

LMAO...I know what you mean,

 

[Goldprospector]

the cardio issue is about as personal as hat sizes. If I don't do a minimal amount of cardio...I get fat as hell. Even with a job where I sweat constantly for 8 hours a day and even with a decent diet.
But I do think too much cardio is a bad thing. I only hit the treadmill for 10 to 15 minutes prior to my weight training, that way, I have a high intensity lift that keeps my heartrate into the target HR zone.

 

[Bam Bam]

Shit man dont get started on this. This has been played to death. If you want lots of reading to do ... do a search on Cardio.

Mavy

I guess I missed all of these debates. I have to go see what happened. Bam

 

[Nelson Montana]

By the way, ZIP! is $29.95 That's practically a wholsale price and the reason I agreed to work with PF. Their prices are right -- especially considering many less effective thermogenics can cost twice that much.

 

[DeepZenPill]

Gugglesterones: Wait a minute, this stuff is sold in thyroid supplements, isn't it? Yeah. but it can also raise estrogen. (No wonder it clears acne)

Maybe a little off topic, but raising estrogen usually makes me break out more, so I doubt the acne clearing effect is from a surge in estrogen.

Thyroid gland Extract: Some may say it's folklore but that's what they said about desiccated thyroid gland even though it was used successfully for years for the treatment of hypothyroidism.

This is different than Armour Thyroid, right? And what exactly are the active elements of this extract?

 

[IHateCrunches]

I'll get right to the point. .. . .


Low carb diets: They slow the metabolism and hinder thyroid output.

Low carbs is the way to go, but not ketosis.

Clen is a powerful stimulent and will not provide log lasting results. Down regulation from clen is quick.

The address is www.proteinfactory.com

So your pushing "ZIP" whihc is a formula that has been made recently? And it increases thyroid function? What if we wanted to try the 7 Keto DHEA. Whats the differences between ZIP and this? Differences being i energy levelsand thyroid function.

BTW in your opinion are you for or against low carb diets, because you gave two different views.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

Green tea; This popular fat loss product contains flouride, which stunts T4 output.

green tea extract does not contain flouride.

and just as a note- most water in the united states is flouridated

btw- guggulsterones have not been shown to raise estrogen, though their thyroid raising abilities may be in dispute as with most supps that purport to do so.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

btw-
T-rex= THERMOREXIN

 

[jobe916]

a little of the info i agree with, but this sounds like a big product push as opposed to a post about fat loss.. (not flaming your products)

 

[Dr. M]

Nelson -

aspartame shutting down thyroid function permanently? I want a citation for that. You can't just throw out a statement like that without citing the study; that's the way rumours get started.

===
Physiol Behav. 2002 Feb 1-15;75(1-2):41-7.
Effects of long-term ingestion of aspartame on hypothalamic neuropeptide Y, plasma leptin and body weight gain and composition.

Beck B, Burlet A, Max JP, Stricker-Krongrad A.

Centre de Recherches UHP/EA 3453, IFR no. 111, Systemes Neuromodulateurs des Comportements Ingestifs; 38, rue Lionnois, 54000 Nancy, France. [email protected]

The aim of this study was to determine the effects of the chronic ingestion of aspartame (ASP) on brain neuropeptide Y (NPY) concentrations, plasma hormones, food intake and body fat. Two groups of male Long-Evans rats, fed on a control (C) well-balanced diet, had to drink either a 0.1% ASP solution or water for a period of 14 weeks starting at weaning. Food intake and body weight were weekly recorded. At the end of the experiment, fat pads were sampled, leptin and insulin were measured in the plasma and NPY in several microdissected brain areas. Substituting ASP for water led to lower body weight (-8%; P<.004) and lower fat depot weight (-20%; P<.01) with no differences in energy intake or plasma insulin concentrations. Plasma leptin was significantly reduced by 34% (P<.05). Leptin concentrations were well-correlated with final body weight (r=.47; P<.025) and fat pad mass (r=.53; P<.01). NPY concentrations were 23% lower (P<.03) in the arcuate nucleus of ASP rats with no differences in other brain areas. The beneficial effects on body composition could be related to the decreased effects of NPY on lipid and energy metabolism, independently of insulin. The reasons for the NPY decrease (regulatory or toxicological) are not obvious. The constitutive amino acids of the ASP molecule might participate in the NPY regulation.
===
Physiol Behav. 2003 Apr;78(4-5):557-62.
Physiological mechanisms mediating aspartame-induced satiety.

Hall WL, Millward DJ, Rogers PJ, Morgan LM.

Centre for Nutrition and Food Safety, School of Biomedical and Life Sciences, University of Surrey, Guildford, Surrey GU2 7XH, UK. [email protected]

Aspartame has been previously shown to increase satiety. This study aimed to investigate a possible role for the satiety hormones cholecystokinin (CCK) and glucagon-like peptide-1 (GLP-1) in this effect. The effects of the constituents of aspartame, phenylalanine and aspartic acid, were also examined. Six subjects consumed an encapsulated preload consisting of either 400 mg aspartame, 176 mg aspartic acid+224 mg phenylalanine, or 400 mg corn flour (control), with 1.5 g paracetamol dissolved in 450 ml water to measure gastric emptying. A 1983-kJ liquid meal was consumed 60 min later. Plasma CCK, GLP-1, glucose-dependent insulinotropic polypeptide (GIP), glucose, and insulin were measured over 0-120 min. Gastric emptying was measured from 0 to 60 min. Plasma GLP-1 concentrations decreased following the liquid meal (60-120 min) after both the aspartame and amino acids preloads (control, 2096.9 pmol/l min; aspartame, 536.6 pmol/l min; amino acids, 861.8 pmol/l min; incremental area under the curve [AUC] 60-120 min, P<.05). Desire to eat was reduced from 60 to 120 min following the amino acids preload (control, -337.1 mm min; aspartame, -505.4 mm min; amino acids, -1497.1 mm min; incremental AUC 60-120 min, P<.05). However, gastric emptying rates, plasma CCK, GIP, insulin, and glucose concentrations were unaffected. There was a correlation between the increase in plasma phenylalanine and decrease in desire to eat after the liquid meal following the constituent amino acids (r=-.9774, P=.004). In conclusion, it is unlikely that aspartame increases satiety via CCK- or GLP-1-mediated mechanisms, but small changes in circulating phenylalanine concentrations may influence appetite.
===
Now, if THIS is the paper to which you're referring:
J Pharmacol Sci. 2003 Jan;91(1):83-6.
Formaldehyde-induced shrinkage of rat thymocytes.

Nakao H, Umebayashi C, Nakata M, Nishizaki Y, Noda K, Okano Y, Oyama Y.

Laboratory of Cell Signaling, Faculty of Integrated Arts and Sciences, The University of Tokushima, Tokushima, Japan.

To test the possibility that micromolar formaldehyde, a metabolite of methanol derived from aspartame, exerts cytotoxicity, its effect on rat thymocytes was examined under the in vitro condition using a flow cytometer. Incubation of thymocytes with formaldehyde at 100 micro M or more for 24 h significantly increased the populations of shrunken cells and cells with hypodiploid DNA. The peak blood concentration of methanol in human subjects administered abuse doses of aspartame has been reported to exceed 2 mg/dL (625 micro M). It would increase the population of thymocytes undergoing apoptosis if formaldehyde at 100 micro M or more appears in the blood after administration of aspartame.
===

Then Nelson, you've been led astray. The amount of aspartame needed to generate a 100uM concentration of methanol in the human bloodstream is MASSIVE. When they talk of studies with 'abuse doses' of aspartame, they're talking about the equivalent of approximately 16 CASES of diet coke (or whatever your aspartame vehicle is; many aspartame-sweetened products contain generally the same amount of aspartame for the same sweetness) administered in a SINGLE dose. That's right - one dose. Furthermore, the formaldehyde (when they talk of formaldehyde, this is because methanol is metabolized to formaldehyde in the human body) was administered ARTIFICIALLY, in vitro! It was a one-shot, kick 'em in the ass deal, unlike normal metabolism which would have tapered the dosage of methanol (formaldehyde) up and down, allowing the cells to react in a graduated fashion, because of its time of action on the aspartame.

Now, if any of you sit down and chug 16 cases of diet coke (with or without lemon) after you workout, then MAYBE you'll approach the doses they're talking about. The fact is, the normal dietary intake of methanol is much higher than that produced by one's normal consumption of aspartame - these studies that quote 'abuse doses', or direct administration of 100uM methanol in vitro instead of in vivo are NOT relevant to normal consumption of the substance in question.

It's like saying that if one were to hold 100,000,000 coffe cups worth of heat at once, one's hand would MELT! AAAAAAAAAAHHHHH! STOP HOLDING YOUR COFFEE EVERYONE! Oh, wait... by holding just ONE cup at a time, your hand is fine... oh, right - these guys have all forgotten one principle of good life science: conduct your study in a normal dosage range for the population you're trying to protect.

It's assholes like these guys in the study above that give scientists like myself a bad name. All they wanted to do was to shock and awe the world with a tale of aspartame-induced thyroid cell apoptosis (STILL, there is no mention of complete thyroid shutdown - just increased apoptosis which would likely still be in the ranges where the thyroid would be able to replace the cells in a controlled fashion) and try to gain some credibility for... wait for it... the Faculty of Integrated Arts and Sciences in Tokushima. Good for them.

Even in the scientific literature, be careful what you believe... context and procedure is ALWAYS important.

-M

 

[jboldman]

Ah, Dr. M, guess you have not had many arguments with Nelson?

jb

 

[Dr. M]

jb -

I'm just asking him to provide legitimate evidence for what he's saying above regarding permanent shut-down of thyroid function.

If he can give me the paper or book from which he got that statement (or evidence which led him to that conclusion), then I'll do the gentlemanly thing and give him the closest thing I can to a handshake over the boards.

If it turns out that I just haven't found the source of this evidence, then I'll even thank him for bringing it to my attention.

Intellectual debates are conducted in such ways, not arguments.

-M

 

[jboldman]

OK, do not believe in stimulants of any kind, don't want to jack your nervous system around yet you recommend thermorexin that contains yohimbine HCL, Theophylline, Synephrine hcl, green tea, caffeine and who knows what in ZIP since i could not find a list of ingredients on their site. ! Kinda like having your cake and eating it too.

jb

I'll get right to the point.

I don't believe in stimulents of any kind. Besides the fact that I feel like crap on them, they only agitate the nervous system, suppressing the appetite and ironically, forcing your metabolism to get SLOWER.

That's right. Remember at all times, the body is an adaptive mechanism. Try and speed it up, and it will retaliate in an effort to remain homeostasis by slowing down, hoarding fat. That's why I've never liked ephedra. And to all the people who swear by it, all I have to say is this...if it worked so well, why do you still need it? And why isn't everyone lean after years of ephedra use? Nah, it just gets you jacked. If that's what you want, fine. But as a fat loss supplement, it sucks out loud.

I won't even discuss DNP. I'm old school. I want to be strong and healthy. DNP doesn't fit into that plan.

So what's left? Cardio? Dont get me started.

Diet? No shit. But we all know that.

There's only one way to burn more fat than by simply expending more energy than calories and that's by hyping the thyroid. The only problem is, thyroid hormones are like any exogenous therapy in that they are suppressive. Some might argue that the thyroid will rebound much like the HPTA but I disagree. I think the thyroid is more delicate. But it's a moot point anyway since muscle grown from steroids is muscle. It can be maintained. Fat loss from thyroid drug use, can not be maintained. It's a dangerous game for a temporary fix. That's the bitch.

Nope, the only thing to do is to get your own thyroid working at full steam. But get this. There are probably things you're doing right now that are fucking up optimum thyroid function. Here are a few examples.

Cruciferous vegetables; Believe it or not, broccoli contains something called thiourea whih suppresses thyroid function.

Low carb diets: They slow the metabolism and hinder thyroid output.

Peaches: I love them. But they too impair thyroid fuction. Bananas are good.

Melatonin: Lowers body temperature. The thyroid in turn slows down to store fat. (Fat provides heat)

Green tea; This popular fat loss product contains flouride, which stunts T4 output.

Aspartame: Studies in rats showed that aspartame shut down thyroid function permanently.

TOFU: If you eat this shit in the name of health, you're kidding yourself. It's estrogenic and estrogen impairs thyroid function (which is why more women are hypothyroid)

Gugglesterones: Wait a minute, this stuff is sold in thyroid supplements, isn't it? Yeah. but it can also raise estrogen. (No wonder it clears acne)

Forskolin: Another popular thyroid supplement has been shown to exasperate prostate cancer. Fuck this stuff. I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole.

Okay, what's good?


Acetyl L Tyrosine: The key nutrient to a faster metabolism. Without it, your thyroid dies.


Kelp: A fave of Arnold and Zane. The old timers fat loss product still works. And iodine deficiency will cause hypothyroidism within days.


Selenium: The most overlooked nutrient in bodybuilding: It's what converts T4 into the fat burning T3. If your body doesn't convert the T4, it's useless.


Olive Leaf. Used for years as an immunity booster, recent studies show it improves thyroid fuction. A strong immune system usually means a strong thyroid. Almost all people with suppressed immunity systems also have suppressed thyroids.


Coconut oil. That's right. Saturated fat. This is supposed to be the worst stuff in the world for you, right? It improves thyroid function. More evidence that the so called experts don't know shit.


Thyroid gland Extract: Some may say it's folklore but that's what they said about desiccated thyroid gland even though it was used successfully for years for the treatment of hypothyroidism.


7 Keto DHEA. This is the shit. Plenty of evidence on this one. Even doctors will recommend NOT taking it if you take thyroid medication because it can raise thyroid output TOO MUCH. (So why don't they lower the dosage and recommend using 7 keto dhea?)
People who were diagnosed with low thyroid got their TSH levels into the normal range with just the use of 7 keto DHEA. This may be the best fat loss product on the market.


Okay, shameless plug coming up so if you
don't want to hear it, stop reading now. But I believe strongly in all these substances and research backs it up -- including my own personal experience. That's why I recommended them for Protein Factory.com's weight loss product ZIP! Honestly, if you're looking for something that will get you jacked, it's not for you. But if you're looking for something that will give focus and clarity and help burn fat on a consistent basis without suppression, there's nothing better. As a matter of fact, the more you use it, the better it is for your thyroid. It's a REAL thermogenic -- one that uses fat for fuel as opposed to raising body temperature through central nervous stimulants.

And BTW, stacking ZIP! with Thermorexin has got to be the most kick-ass fat loss combo EVER. (proceed with caution though)

Don't be a fool and use T3 or DNP or even overdose on stimulants use to gain the fat back once you stop. Eat right. Train hard. And try ZIP! or the ZIP!/T-Rex combo. It works.

 

[Dr. M]

Re: Re: The Only SANE Way To Burn Fat

OK, do not believe in stimulants of any kind, don't want to jack your nervous system around yet you recommend thermorexin that contains yohimbine HCL, Theophylline, Synephrine hcl, green tea, caffeine and who knows what in ZIP since i could not find a list of ingredients on their site. ! Kinda like having your cake and eating it too.

jb

NOW who's arguing?

-M (all this is meant in jest, by the way)

 

[jboldman]

I know I know! I just can't help myself. Maybe we could start an NMA(Nelson Montana Anonymous) to help those of us who cant help themselves kick the arguing with nelson habit! <GRIN>

jb

 

[Dr. M]

HAHAHAHAHA... so true...

Actually, this is the first time I've even said 'boo' to Nelson... the blanket statement about the thyroid shutdown was something I just couldn't let slide without some sort of citation.

I hope he can just post a reference, let me go read it, and then I'll be either on my way or talking about how THAT paper was written by another group of idiots (like the ones I mentioned above) who dealt totally outside the physiological realm.

-M

 

[bigrand]

Well Dr M, im waiting for your opinion on ways to optimize fat burning......i know you have the physiological knowledge.
How about something that tells your brain you are well fed (when in reality your dieting), this way your brain doesnt slow metabolism thinking its starving? Similar to how C75 use increases Malonyl-CoA which floods the brain telling it its full so metabolism can proceed at full force....
Stimulants have stopped working the way they used to, before i could loose lots of weight, now, i take thermorexin and i dont loose a single pound. Its like i have to take the shit just to maintain my weight! I dont eat that much either...

 

[b1ewsw32]

Where's Fonz when you need him? He'd have a field day with this thread
How the hell are we supposed to get any results? We cant have any cruciferous vegetables,which BTW is a late night staple for guys who are competing. Low carb diets are no good, high carb diets are garbage. One paltry can of tuna a day is going to give us mercury poisoning with co-inciding depression.Milk is mostly water and useless carbs defenitely not the milk from yesteryear.Chicken's are force-fed shit and pumped with hormones to make them grow faster.The mad-cow(beef) scare was blown out of proportion.The next thing you'll hear is eggs have some infectious prion that causes Jacob-Creudzfeldt syndrome and our turkey will induce serotonin syndrome with insiduous symtoms of confusion,dyskinesias and inevitable brain meltdown causing death.
I know, we'll just stick to insects,dogs and cats,or is that how sars originated?

I agree with Dr.M you have to take these studies with a grain of salt as sometimes for every supporting study, there's one to cotradict it.
There's no panacea for the dietary,hormonal or supplemental aspects of this sport.My sentiments are everyone should listen,read and learn from other educated/experienced individuals and use ergogenics that have been time tried and proven to be effective for years, or what works best for you and not some fly by night supplement with a few studies backing up it's possible effectiveness??

B32...

 

[Dr. M]

bigrand -

If you check the abstract of this paper above:

Physiol Behav. 2003 Apr;78(4-5):557-62

you'll see that it says 'aspartame has been known previously to increase satiety' (like you mentioned - makes you feel full even if you're not). Instead of eating aspartame, you could try ingesting something which increases levels of CCK, GLP-1, or neuropeptide Y; a number of things will increase the levels of these things without actually filling the stomach, but they're mainly fatty or sugary materials which are contrary to diet efficiency.

Based on the literature I've seen, thioctic acid (R-alpha lipoic acid) and acetyl-L-carnitine are the two most effective (non-stimulatory) fat burners I could recommend.

Go to PubMed (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov) and run a literature search for 'lipoic acid' or 'acetyl L carnitine' and you'll see some of the papers on which I'm basing my judgement.

At any rate, the BEST thing you could do is talk to a registered dietitian, who could set you up based on your current and desired body composition and schedule.

Good luck!
-M

 

[Nelson Montana]

Okay, a few things.

I didn't think anyone thought for a moment I was suggesting that taking aspartame would shut down the thyroid. And off course, animal tests are done with massive doses. They can't just put a little Equal in the rats morning coffe and hand around for 3 years waiting to see if he'll develop any bad side effects. Anyone who knows me knows I'm the first guy to advise taking any study with a grain of salt. I just thought it was interesting that it had an effect on the thyroid.

As far as passing on cruciferous vegatables, that's advice anyone diagnosed with a high TSH would get from a doctor. Again, it doesn't mean eating a piece of brocolli is going to kill you. |

The ingredient to ZIP! are on the "Articles" page at the end of the basic supplement descriptions. I believe they may make some alterations and add a touch of syneperine in which case I'd recommend keeping dosages judicious if you plan on miixing ZIP! with another stimulent. Guys used to epherdra, (or the old Dymetadrine 25) would appreciate the kick but a newbie may be a little more "awake" than anticipated.

 

[Dr. M]

Okay, a few things.

I didn't think anyone thought for a moment I was suggesting that taking aspartame would shut down the thyroid. And off course, animal tests are done with massive doses. They can't just put a little Equal in the rats morning coffe and hand around for 3 years waiting to see if he'll develop any bad side effects. Anyone who knows me knows I'm the first guy to advise taking any study with a grain of salt. I just thought it was interesting that it had an effect on the thyroid.

Well, I'm satisfied with that answer.

Cheers to ya, Nelson.
-M

 

[macrophage69alpha]

btw- not to be a "spoilsport", but Liporexin is a far superior non-stim lipolytic agent.


and GT(standardized for egcg) should be a central component of any Non-stim "fat burner"..

 

[bigrand]

Dr M,
How effective would the Cholecystokinin or Glucagon-like peptide route be? I mean, from what ive read, there is still a lot of research to be done on those and the other peripheral peptides such as enterostatin, leptin, amylin, and bombesin.
Any sugestions on BEST supplements for the above or for NPY and Alpha-MSH?
Malonyl-CoA is one i would want to mess with becasue of its ability to bring about saiety and keep metabolism at max. I feel thats the key, that way we can diet, and it will actually work the way we want it to, without dimishing returns.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

Nicotine is quite effective
Brain Res. 2003 Feb 28;964(2):311-5. Related Articles, Links


Nicotine administration decreases neuropeptide Y expression and increases leptin receptor expression in the hypothalamus of food-deprived rats.

Jang MH, Shin MC, Kim KH, Cho SY, Bahn GH, Kim EH, Kim CJ.

Department of Physiology, College of Medicine, Kyung Hee University, 1 Hoigi-dong, Dongdaemun-gu, 130-701, Seoul, South Korea.

The effects of nicotine on the expressions of neuropeptide Y (NPY) and leptin receptor in the rat hypothalamus were investigated via immunohistochemistry. The results show that NPY expression is not affected in the arcuate nucleus (ARN) and is increased only slightly in the paraventricular nucleus (PVN) by nicotine administration under normal (i.e. fed) conditions and that leptin receptor expression is decreased slightly in the ARN and not affected in the PVN following nicotine treatment under the same conditions. Food deprivation enhanced NPY and suppressed leptin receptor expression in the ARN and PVN of the hypothalamus. Nicotine administration resulted in decreased NPY and increased leptin receptor levels.


also raising dopamine (selegiline- which also restores NPY and NA nerve fibers)

J Neuroimmunol. 1998 Dec 1;92(1-2):9-21. Related Articles, Links


L-deprenyl-induced increase in IL-2 and NK cell activity accompanies restoration of noradrenergic nerve fibers in the spleens of old F344 rats.

ThyagaRajan S, Madden KS, Kalvass JC, Dimitrova SS, Felten SY, Felten DL.

Department of Neurobiology and Anatomy, University of Rochester School of Medicine, NY 14642, USA.

Previously, we have hypothesized a causal relationship between some measures of immunosenescence and the age-related decline in sympathetic noradrenergic (NA) nerve fibers in spleen and lymph nodes of F344 rats. In the present study, we investigated this interrelationship further by measuring NK cell activity, Con A-induced IL-2 production, norepinephrine (NE) concentration, and morphological localization of NA and neuropeptide-Y (NPY) nerve fibers in the spleens of old (21 months old) male F344 rats after 10 weeks of daily treatment with low doses of L-deprenyl, an irreversible monoamine oxidase-B inhibitor, followed by a 9-day wash-out period. NK cell activity and Con A-induced IL-2 production were increased in deprenyl-treated old rats in comparison to untreated and saline-treated old rats. Deprenyl treatment did not alter the percentage of CD5+ T-cells, but moderately increased the percentage of sIgM+ B-cells in the spleens of old rats. In addition to changes in immune responses, NE content and the volume density of NA and NPY nerve fibers were partially augmented in the spleens of deprenyl-treated old rats. In a separate study, various concentrations of deprenyl were added in vitro to spleen cells from young and old F344 rats to examine the direct effects of the drug on Con A-induced IL-2 production. In contrast to in vivo treatment, in vitro addition of deprenyl did not alter the Con A-induced IL-2 production by splenocytes from old rats. Together, these results suggest that the ability of deprenyl to enhance certain immune responses are interlinked to the restoration of sympathetic NA and NPY nerve fibers in the spleens of old rats.

and Neurogenex- which increases satiation through upregulation of Nicotinic receptors as well as through increases in Dopamine, NA, etc...

 

[bigrand]

Im little worried about nicotine or its receptors......from an adictive POV, ive had bad withdrawl from painkillers before, i lost my mind, i dont want to risk that EVER again.

WOOHOO, this thread is gettin interesting!

 

[macrophage69alpha]

selegiline and Neurogenex would be "safe choices"...

though will say that the nicotine lozenges dont seem to be addictive for most people(disclaimer- most people)- mostly because they are just nicotine and not the "suped up" version you get with smoking- with all the wonderful and wildly toxic additives-

 

[WelshInjectable]

Interesting about the broccoli, I'll have to change my shoppin list. Ive just been using trex/liporexin and they are excellent, as long as they are still available theres no need for me to look at any other fat loss supps.

 

[liftsiron]

Great post Dr. M The anti- aspertame group irritates the hell out of me.

I think however, the point of the post got side tracked. Nelson pointed to the crux of losing body fat and keeping it off. DIET and EXERCISE. Often I think that this is overlooked, in search of that magic pill.

 

[Nelson Montana]

btw- not to be a "spoilsport", but Liporexin is a far superior non-stim lipolytic agent.


and GT(standardized for egcg) should be a central component of any Non-stim "fat burner"..

Uh oh -- battle of the non stimulant fat burners!

Liporexin is a fine product but I see it more of a nootropric, which will increase alertness (making it a "non stimulative stimulant) but not necessarily a fat burner. (ALthough it does contain tyrosine, but I don't know how much)

By stimulating the thyroid with ingredients like selenium and kelp and 7keto dhea, you get an actual thermogenic effect -- something that was never really the case with ephedra. In order to raise body temperature with CNS you'd have to take so much you'd look like death warmed over. Stimulating the thyroid naturally just allows for more energy output.

Liporexin is $60. ZIP! is $29. They can be used together.

 

[DepressiveJuice]

nelson what do you think of using low dose T3? somewhere around the range of 10mcg-12.5mcg

 

[Nelson Montana]

nelson what do you think of using low dose T3? somewhere around the range of 10mcg-12.5mcg

Personally, I don't like fucking with the thyroid but if I had to choose, I'd prefer T4 over T3 --mosty for cautious reasons. The body still has to convert T4 into T3 so in a sense, it's still functioning normally, just "hyped." With T3, the thyroid has nothing to do, leading to it's gradual shut down.

A small dose of T3 can lead to a quick temporary loss of fat which is a necessary evil if you're competing. (I also know a lot of TV and movie people who use it to get in shape for roles where they need to look lean) But as a stategy for full time fat loss, I think it's the wrong way to go. I'm supprised the natural thyroid route has been so overlooked. Even the old time bodybuilders knew it was the way to go which is why they used kelp. But kelp alone will provide limited results.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

Liporexin is a fine product but I see it more of a nootropric, which will increase alertness (making it a "non stimulative stimulant) but not necessarily a fat burner. (ALthough it does contain tyrosine, but I don't know how much)

that kind of strange since it is compilation of CLINICALLY proven thermogens and metabolic enhancers. though it does ALSO provide nootropic effect

guess you missed these?

Acetyl-l-Carnitine- shown to improve mitochondrial energy production and increase use of fatty acids- and through the donation of its acetyl group increases acetylcholine(nootropic)

green tea extract (50% egcg) -been shown in clinical trials to elevate basal metabolism by up to 6-8% or more. It also has great anti-oxidant benefits, improves glucose clearance and limits the enzyme 5a reductase.


Guggulsterones Z and E - shown to increase thyroid by increasing thyroid uptake of iodine.

 

[Nelson Montana]

that kind of strange since it is compilation of CLINICALLY proven thermogens and metabolic enhancers. though it does ALSO provide nootropic effect

guess you missed these?

Acetyl-l-Carnitine- shown to improve mitochondrial energy production and increase use of fatty acids- and through the donation of its acetyl group increases acetylcholine(nootropic)

green tea extract (50% egcg) -been shown in clinical trials to elevate basal metabolism by up to 6-8% or more. It also has great anti-oxidant benefits, improves glucose clearance and limits the enzyme 5a reductase.


Guggulsterones Z and E - shown to increase thyroid by increasing thyroid uptake of iodine.

Well, that's true about the ALC. It's a good supp and I recommend it. But that claim can be made about a lot of nutrients. So in a sense, most anything that helps the metabolism function optimumly can be called a fat burner.

People can try both Liporexin and ZIP! and decide for themselves, or as mentioned, use them in a combo. The only "double dose" ingredient would be the thyrosine, which has far more evidence for being effective at thyroid uptake of iodine than gugglesterones. And without selenium, the body can not convert T4 into T3 so for maximum thyroid output and fat burning, it's a must.

 

[geoboy]

nelson:

is acetyl l-tyrosine any better than run-of-the-mill l-tyrosine for improving thyroid function?

 

[DeeJay922]

I've never thought about it, but you made a great point that the body adapts, so taking appetite supressants such as ripped fuel for a long period of time, would cause metabolism to slow down. I have been taking stimulants such as ripped fuel for about a year now (too the point where i feel like i can't get a good workout without them) I guess you could say I am hooked on them. I guess my question would be are there alternatives I can take that would be better for me, something like that ZIP! stuff? I am trying work on my abs, and i have noticed that ripped fuel and the like just don't have the same effect anymore... any advice?

 

[Koivu_11]

hoe about the dosage...

btw great thread.

 

[Ganryu]

Sorry to jump in with a stupid question, but anyone have a link for DNP or T3 info, as I don't know what they are? Did a search, but not much came up.

Thanks,
Ganryu

 

[Nelson Montana]

geo: There seems to be some evidence that acetyl tyrosine is better absorbed.

DeeJ: That's the problem with stimulants. After a while, you need them to feel "normal. "

In the long run, ZIP! would be the better fat burner, but expect to gain a couple of pounds after you go off the Ripped Fuel. But give it time. Eventually, you'll re-adapt and start burning fat without drugs. (And let's face it, ephedra and caffeine are drugs. Yohimbe too.)

 

[bicepts101]

this is an awsome thread keep it going

 

[Dr. M]

Dr M,
How effective would the Cholecystokinin or Glucagon-like peptide route be? I mean, from what ive read, there is still a lot of research to be done on those and the other peripheral peptides such as enterostatin, leptin, amylin, and bombesin.
Any sugestions on BEST supplements for the above or for NPY and Alpha-MSH?
Malonyl-CoA is one i would want to mess with becasue of its ability to bring about saiety and keep metabolism at max. I feel thats the key, that way we can diet, and it will actually work the way we want it to, without dimishing returns.

Mal-CoA wouldn't be bad, but it'd be expensive if you bought it at pharmaceutical grade.

Leptin is the MOST effective (endogenous) appetite reducer I've seen, and have had extensive background pumped into me with my biochemistry of lipids and lipid metabolism courses... but consuming pure leptin is, at present, not a possibility.

If it were up to me, I'd stick the gene for human leptin into an expression vector, produce buckets of leptin-rich "soup", do a quick and dirty purification to remove any remaining microbial content, and administer that in a protected form that wouldn't be accessible until it entered the small intestine.

However, all of these things take time, money, and resources - none of which I have at present, since I'm currently doing graduate research in biochemistry and have a cure for cancer to work on (that's the short version of a VERY long and complicated story).

If you really want to suppress your appetite, some of the best things (price vs. effect vs. availability vs. side-effects) are already on the market.

-M

 

[macrophage69alpha]

nelson,

both tyrosine AND iodine are essential for thryoid production- they are both bases of the T compound molecules.

and noticed that you skipped over the olde' green tea/ ECGC issue.

agree that they could be used together, but to say that Liporexin is not a fatburner in its own right, and a superior one at that, is well......

Phytomedicine. 2002 Jan;9(1):3-8. Related Articles, Links


Recent findings of green tea extract AR25 (Exolise) and its activity for the treatment of obesity.

Chantre P, Lairon D.

Laboratoires Arkopharma, Carros, France. [email protected]

The green tea extract AR25 is an 80% ethanolic dry extract standardized at 25% catechins expressed as epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG). In vitro, green tea extract AR25 exerts a direct inhibition of gastric and pancreatic lipases and a stimulation of thermogenesis. In an open study, the effects of extract AR25 were evaluated in moderately obese patients. After 3 months, body weight was decreased by 4.6% and waist circumference by 4.48%. These results suggest the green tea extract AR25 to be a natural product for the treatment of obesity, which exerts its activity by several ways: inhibition of lipases and stimulation of thermogenesis.

 

[wend]

So when is the ZIP! for sale?

 

[DeeJay922]

I called them and they said it will be available around 3 -4 weeks from now... they are taking preorders and said they will only have a limited supply. the bottles are an 18 day supply and you take 5 pills a day from what the woman told me.

 

[Transporter]

well i buy all ingredients in bulk from BOC and mix it.
i am not paying you guys for mixing it.

there are smart asses outhere like me!

 

[Nelson Montana]

well i buy all ingredients in bulk from BOC and mix it.
i am not paying you guys for mixing it.

there are smart asses outhere like me!

That's cool. But the price comes out to be about the same either way.

 

[Transporter]

yes but i do not trust anybody. i like mixing my own stuff. at least i know what is inside.
u gotta agree with me on this one.

 

[collegiateLifter]

TOFU: If you eat this shit in the name of health, you're kidding yourself. It's estrogenic and estrogen impairs thyroid function (which is why more women are hypothyroid)


Forskolin: Another popular thyroid supplement has been shown to exasperate prostate cancer. Fuck this stuff. I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole.

Soy products: I certainly don't make a diet based around them, but I'm not convinced that they do cause any significant harm due to their phyto estrogens. The anti-soy crusade always reaked like a bio-test scam to me.


Forsokolikn: The funny thing here is I'm pretty sure that all of the AAS you've taken have been shown to exasperate prostate cancer too, though they haven't been shown to cause it.

Similarly high protein diets have been shown to exasperate renal failure, but have not been shown to cause it

 

[bigrand]

M

Do tell what your research on cancer is bringing fourth.....i lost my father to pancreatic cancer in 2000 and have benn quite interested in its treatments and the genetics of cancer ever since. Current treatment is barbaric and quite unsuccesfull (what good is chemo if the patient is deemed "terminal", a word i dont believe in). Thats the other reason ive taken a likeing to C75, for its fat burning potential and as an antineoplastic agent.
Fuck taking an intercalating agent like the cis isomer of
PtCl2(NH3)2, i want to cure the disease, not disease the rest of my damn body.

 

[Dr. M]

Big -

sorry to hear about your father. Cancer is a hell of a disease - I did a count-back one day and realized that I'd lost 14 people close to me (friends and family) to various cancers; from acute lymphoblastic leukemia, to Hodgkin's Lymphoma, to pancreatic cancer, to brain cancer... the list goes on.

And I want to shorten the fucking thing.

I said to myself "hey - I'd be a selfish sonuvabitch if I just sat back and rolled in the cash with some sort of pharmaceutical gig which made pills for weak fucking headaches, when there are problems that DON'T go away which I think I can treat."

So, now I deal with understanding the mechanisms that regulate cell division in eukaryotic cells... and hope that someday I'll be able to design and use a gene therapy vector, or a designer pharmaceutical, or something else which will modulate the cyclin-dependent kinases or their cofactors/repressors (some of the most relevant targets when it comes to cell division) and be able to look someone in the eye who's 40 and diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and say "So your test results came back positive - you have pancreatic cancer of an aggressive nature, and it's inoperable. But listen - have you thought about your pension? I know this great RRSP guy who can set you up so that when you're 65 you're sailing off the coast of Spain in your own catamaran..."

I figure that everyone nowadays is looking for ways to kill everything off and, being that they're your own cells just rapidly dividing in an uncontrolled manner, they're killing their patients faster than the disease was in the first place! Quality of life, my ass...

My goal is to get to a point where someone can be diagnosed with cancer at 35 or 40, and live long enough to die of a heart attack because he overdosed his viagra at 70 - if you can let them live out their natural lives without being killed by their cancer, that's a cure in my books.

Hope you guys don't think I'm TOO crazy.
-M

 

[bigrand]

I have some more to add here, but i had another metal breakdown today (i think iwas the cialis last night before bed plus the thermorexin this morning) so i will wait till tomorrow to write it.....Mac, is it possible to have a bad reaction (anxiety attacks) after a long use and not from initial use? I had a 6 hour session today that finally went away, but id rather avoid them and Buspar.

 

[MR Pink]

M,

Can you tell me at what stage the overal cancer research is at this moment...and when do you think there is gonna be a good cure for cancer, in years speaking?

Mr Pink

 

[Nelson Montana]

yes but i do not trust anybody. i like mixing my own stuff. at least i know what is inside.
u gotta agree with me on this one.

You don't trust anyone to put the ingredients in the caps. (???) Why do you trust that they're sending you the right stuff?


cl: I'll never understand why people defend products that have been shown to be possibly dangerous. At least you'll see some results from steroids.. Is forskolin really worth it? And yes, biotest started a bunch of soy paranoia, but tofu is estrogenic.


Dr. M According to James Watson (of DNA fame) cancer is curable, but the funding for it isn't feasable. (About 2.5 billion dollars a year more than they get now ) No company is willing to trust a scientist of group of scientists with that much money. (So in a sense the money spent yearly on rap albums could cure cancer. Or, the money spent on bombing Iraq, could have cured cancer) Of course, if our idiotic government officials would just allow stem cell research we'd probably see a cure within 10 years. But....don't get me started.

Good luck with your aspirations. It's a noble cause.

 

[Enigmaxxx7]

Interesting theories on this topic Nelson. So far I follow you.

 

[Ulter]

Cancer is a 40 Billion dollar a year industry in the US. Many companies taking in that money see no reason for a cure. I know it's sick but that's the way of the world.

DrM, You might want to investigate R+ Lipoic Acid's ability to inhibit transciption factor NF KappaB. Dr Bruce Ames, (see: Ames Index), is working at Children's Hospital in San Francisco and has the whole 5th floor devoted to his cancer research. His staff is currently working with R+. So is the UCLA school of Pharmacology with Dr Lester Packer and Dr Wang. I don't know if they will beat the gene people to the cure but their papers are pretty interesting.

 

[bigrand]

Im not sure if you can find a blanket cure for cancer. There are too many different mutations in different tissues of the body. What would be better would be to isolate mutations and work on only those malignancies, one at a time. I think NF kappa B is only one mutation that can be looked at.....other malignancies have an extreme overexpression of things such as FAS or COX-2, others with mutated kRAS or P53 genes....the list goes on and on. I think the best way to fight cancer would be to look at their uniqueness........cancer cells are cancer cells for a reason....they have some sort of specific mutation that makes them differ from all other cells.....focus on those differences.

 

[Dr. M]

Nelson - thanks bro. Appreciated.

Regarding the "cure":

Cancer is as unique as the people who suffer from it. There won't ever be a blanket "cure for cancer" which you can take in the morning for all cancers everywhere. I think we need to start small, with something like testicular cancer (not all that aggressive in its initial stages) and really help ourselves better understand what gives rise to these cancerous processes.

Problem with cancer is that it's our own cells doing their own thing at their own rate... you can stop cellular division in the body, sure, but it'll kill the rest of you too.

My ideal would be a rapidly-developed, patient-specific immuno-targeted therapy which would be specific to the cells in question. So, our job as researchers (in my mind) is to find ways to abate the onslaught right now (R+ALA has been mentioned, and I agree that the work is excellent), and perhaps find a better way to administer things like TNFalpha directly to the site of a tumour (this wouldn't work for things like leukemia, of course), while still trying to fight our way through to the source and cutting off the driving force of these cells by telling them to stop dividing.

I don't care if it's me personally who succeeds, but if others can stand on my shoulders and see the end of the search from higher and closer than they ever have before, I'll die a happy man.

Oh, and having enough money that I'll be comfortable doesn't hurt either.
-M

 

[bigrand]

Yep, there is something that can be done, we just need to find it.

 

[Frackal]

Re: Re: The Only SANE Way To Burn Fat

their thyroid raising abilities may be in dispute as with most supps that purport to do so.

hehe

 

[collegiateLifter]

cl: I'll never understand why people defend products that have been shown to be possibly dangerous. At least you'll see some results from steroids.. Is forskolin really worth it? And yes, biotest started a bunch of soy paranoia, but tofu is estrogenic.

I'm not defending it per say; I've never used Forskolin. To me, the logic is what i don't like. It reeks very much of those that say ooooh you're eating too much protein therefore you're doing damage to your kidneys.

 

[MR Pink]

A while ago I had seen a programm about cancer at the discovery channel and there was a stuff they extracted from sharks that isolated the cancer and stopped the nutrient and blood flow...anybody else seen it?.....was very interesting


From a fatburner topic to a cancer topic....wow

Mr Pink

 

[Frackal]

yes but i do not trust anybody. i like mixing my own stuff. at least i know what is inside.
u gotta agree with me on this one.

I bet you're often described as 'obnoxious' by people in your personal life

 

[bigrand]

If it was inhibiting blood flow, it was most likley something that lead to endostatin, or angiostatin....they prevent new blood vessels from forming around tumors (tumors stimulate the creation of new vessels for more nutrient flow).

 

[Krazykat]

I can`t say I agree with you on everything with this one Nelson.

May I point out that T4 is generally more supressive than T3.

T3 basically works, you take it you speed up the metabolism, but T4 well look at this for example.

Dr. Lowe: Keep in mind that T4 alone is the least effective thyroid hormone preparation, and 50 mcg is an extremely small amount. I seriously doubt that 50 mcg is benefiting you in any way. It may, however, be harming you.
T4 is highly effective at one thing: suppressing TSH secretion by the pituitary gland. T4 can suppress pituitary TSH secretion while leaving the metabolism of other tissues so slow that the patient continues to suffer from hypothyroid symptoms. Consequently, the doctor concludes (from the lowered TSH) that the patient is well; in the mean time, the patient suffers from continuing hypothyroid symptoms. Even worse, if the T4 dose is too low, the patient’s symptoms may actually worsen.
It's possible that the paltry amount of T4 you’re taking, by lowering your TSH level, has reduced your thyroid gland’s release of T4 and T3. The T4 you're taking may be far too little to compensate for your thyroid gland’s reduced thyroid hormone output. As a result, the small dose of T4 you’re taking may actually be worsening some harmful effects of your hypothyroidism. The Physician’s Desk Reference contains an important statement largely ignored by conventional doctors: "Inadequate doses of Synthroid [and by extension, any other brand of T4] may produce or fail to resolved symptoms of hypothyroidism."[1,p.1500] (Italics mine.) Doctors currently restricting their hypothyroid patients to small doses of T4 would do well by their patients to read and seriously consider the implications of this quote.

Also Nelson, thyroid gland is ok? Thats just a form of thyroid though isn`t it?

 

[Krazykat]

bump

 

[doublebicep]

"They will kill us all in the name of their God!"

Dr. M According to James Watson (of DNA fame) cancer is curable, but the funding for it isn't feasable. (About 2.5 billion dollars a year more than they get now ) No company is willing to trust a scientist of group of scientists with that much money. (So in a sense the money spent yearly on rap albums could cure cancer. Or, the money spent on bombing Iraq, could have cured cancer) Of course, if our idiotic government officials would just allow stem cell research we'd probably see a cure within 10 years. But....don't get me started.

Good luck with your aspirations. It's a noble cause.

The conservative right will kill us all in the name of their God. Please everyone vote! It is our government and our laws! AAS are controlled because we want them to be controlled. (I know, this will probably generate some "not me!" responses...) Well, if you are old enough to vote then use your right to vote to influence change! OKay, let me step off of my soapbox.

Great read and post on this one Nelson and contributors. I am going to place an other from PF soon.

Transporter - did you mean BAC instead of BOC? Just wondering if I am missing out on a good supp source.

Thanks again!