Test Results - Help

[Temple]

Got my cholesteral numbers back
40 years old
Genetic High Cholesteral on both sides of family
Recent cycles are
8 weeks of Bratis Ox aka winny 4 weeks 1/2 tab/d 4 weeks 1tab/d - this was when I thought it was Ox
followed by
6 weeks Deca 50mg/wk
then
2 weeks of Bratis Ox but stopped as without the deca my knees were bothering me again
No AAS for 2 weeks prior to the test

Cholesteral 227
Triglycerides 119
HDL 42
LDL 161
HDL risk factor 5.4
VLDL 24

It says the my total cholesteral and risk factor are elevated
Because my diet is clean and I exercise they may put me on a cholesteral lowering med. Are the numbers being effected by the winny??? I seem to remember reading that deca is far easier on cholesteral - can I continue with it. If they want to give me a cholesteral med should I take it - I know about the AAs use but they don't.

 

[wilson6]

Winny will decrease HDL and increase LDL.

Deca can lower HDL to some extent, but doesn't raise LDL and not nearly as much as the orals.

LDL of 161 is high. You want it below 130.

Because of your family history, I'd stay clear of the orals. Question is, what is your body doing with the high cholesterol. Is there family history of early coronary heart disease?

The effects of the AAS on HDL and LDL should be completely reversed in about 8 weeks.

You may want to hold off on the chol med until everything stablizes post AAS, then see where you are at. If the total and LDL are still elevated, I'd go with the med and make sure you are loaded on anti-oxidants. LDL is bad, but oxidized LDL is really bad.

W6

 

[Temple]

Both grandfathers have/had coronary artery disease as did one grandmother - bypass surgeries in their late 60's.
Should I stop all AAS for 8 weeks? I was planning to resume the deca mostly for my knees.
The doctor did call and does want to start me on a cholesteral med - is there any harm in taking it.
I will load up on the antioxidants - I currently take Tyler's and ALA.

 

[Realgains]

I would never take 17aa orals agian if I were you and that includes winstrol orally as it too is 17aa.
A safe non 17aa oral, if you can find it, is oral primo. You have to take quite a bit since this oral is not protected from the gut by the 17aa molecules.

Proviron is also not 17aa but won't give much in the way of gains.

Nandrolone Phenylprop, or oral or injectable primo are your best bets.

RG

 

[Temple]

bump for an answer as to if it would be harmful to take chol lowering meds until my body normalizes..

Also, how do keto diets that are high is fat effect chol profiles and should someone with high chol and high LDL avoid keto diets???

 

[wilson6]

Some of the cholesterol meds have sides. For example Mavacor and HMG-CoA reductase inhibitor can cause rhabdomyloysis, myalgia, myopathy and liver enzyme elevation. If you're on an HMG-CoA reductase inhibitor, I'd keep an eye on LFTs and CPK, and remember they can be elevated from intense exercise as well. Given the potential negative effects of HMG-CoA reductase inhibitors on skeletal muscle, I don't know what the interactive effects would be of intense eccentric contractions, subsequent muscle damage and the HMG-CoA inhib. drug. I'd talk to your doc about that.

In addition, if you're going to continue the Deca, you have to consider hepatic interactions with the HMG-CoA inhib. although low doses of nandrolone have minimal effects on liver function.

I don't see why a ketogenic diet should be a problem, unless you're consuming a lot of fat. You don't need to eat any fat to get into ketosis. In fact, I don't understand why some eat more fat on a ketogenic diet. Ketosis occurs because the body can't oxidize the fat it is mobilizing from its own stores, so why would one want to add more exogenous fat that can't be used and will just further the problems associated with metabolic acidosis.

And that brings up another question. Just what is your clean diet composed of?

If you normalize in a few weeks from the orals, the chol. lowering drug isn't going to have much effect on long-term CAD risk if only taken for a short time. But if you don't normalize, then you'll need to be on something long term given your family history.

W6

 

[Temple]

Thanks Wilson!!!
That first paragraph, could you give me the remedial reader version???? As to talking with my doctor about it I think you or MS would have a better idea of what would happen with intense workouts and that drug. Are you saying that the combined liver elevations from intense exercise and the med could be a problem???

My clean diet consists of what we teach on here, fat is kept at about 25% and it comes from what is naturally occuring in whole foods primarily the lean beef which has some saturated fat and the rest is Omega 3 and Omega 6 fatty acids. As with anyone there is the occasional binge but it is rare and I was on vacation the week prior to having the test done but I don't know if a week of eating crap (and I do mean crap) would effect the numbers.

I haven't done much keto dieting but when I did I liked it. I did find that more fat intake made it more tolerable. The fat came primarily from more egg yolks and cheese plus the occasional Atkins bar to keep me sane. I can definitely try it with less fat the next time I do it.

 

[wilson6]

rhabdomyolysis = muscle tissue breakdown that can result in myoglobin in the urine, can lead to kidney failure.

myalgia = muscle pain

myopathy = disease of muscle

"Are you saying that the combined liver elevations from intense exercise and the med could be a problem"

It would make it harder to distinguish what the source of elevations are. This is one of the problems with people taking AAS and lifting heavy. ALT and AST can get into the low 100's from intense exercise alone (normal limits being around < 50) so those in the medical community assume the elevations are from the liver when in fact they are coming from muscle and have little to do with the AAS.

Because I don't know the mechanism of the negative effects of the HMG-CoA reductase inhibitor on skeletal muscle (MS help me on this one), I don't know if the drug would make you more prone to exercise induced damage and subsequent rhabdomyolysis and potential renal failure. I'm sure that has to be a study out there somewhere on this.

"The fat came primarily from more egg yolks and cheese"

That's all saturated, bad choices with your family history. Monounsaturated and/or some polyunsaturated (veg oils + vit E) and/or Flax would be OK, but not saturated meat and dairy sources.

W6

 

[MS]

Temple, it would be VERY helpful to find out if you have inherited a condition from your family called "familial hypercholesterolaemia" which is a genetic defect in the receptors needed to normally take LDL cholesterol out of blood circulation. It is not an uncommon condition and can, by itself, cause exercise-induced muscle damage (and high LDL levels of course). Other than this, the most important thing for you right now is to get your cholesterol under control. Perhaps you can just use a statin in conjunction with a low cholesterol diet to get things back in the normal range and then see about dropping the statins. During this period you might need to back off the weight training, but you really need to discuss it with your doc to asses which drug(s) and ongoing monitoring to use. Everyone is different, but in general the statins may reduce you ability to recover from heavy weight training (or worse). I can't speculate whether taking AAS along with them would help or hurt or do nothing. Best not to be the guinea pig!

I wouldn't recommend a keto diet at this stage. It can be hard on the liver and kidneys even without the added stress of drug therapy. Additionally ketosis causes an increase in the activity of HMG-CoA Synthase. This is the intermediate enzyme needed to make the HMG-CoA that the reductase then shunts towards cholesterol synthesis. Although the HMG-CoA synthase required for ketone body formation is in a different cellular compartment (the mitochondria) from the HMG-CoA destined for cholesterol synthesis (in the cytosol), I wouldn't risk it. Stick to a diet low in sat fats and non-ketogenic.

 

[Temple]

Thanks to both of you!!!
I took my test results to my regular doctor today rather than the PA who had run the test and wanted to put me on meds right away. He said that he wanted to run them again in 8 weeks and see if they still looked the same (he does not know about the AAS use) as he is not comfortable putting someone on a med based on one test result. He also said that he wants me to eat and train like I always do and he would run both Chol and Liver tests at the same time so that we could have a baseline on each prior to starting any medication. The med that he mentioned was Lipitor. He said that because of the way that I train he would keep close track of liver function and that if I noticed any difficulty in recovery that I should contact him immediately and we would reassess what I was doing.

MS - how do they test for familial hypercholesterolaemia? And if you have it how do they treat it???