Tae Kwan Do in the Olympics....soooo crap

[SleepingFist]

I am not a big TKD fan but I was realy looking forward to it being included in the Olympics. I remember seeing some of the contests before (about ten to fifteen years before) and people actually knew where there hands were, could defend themselves and showed impressive displays of good technique, beautiful expression and good aggressive fighting spirit....then I saw the Olympics.
Now, tell me, was this disgusting exhibition of play ground ineptitude what the TKD federations intended? Are the standards in this art now sooo low that you don't realy need any skill at all to do it? Do any of you (and in particular the TKD people out there) feel that this mess will evolve over the years into something worth watching or like me, feel that what was shown in the Olympics was clearly an embarrassment not just to TKD but all the martial arts to a generally ignorant public?

Oh, by the way, I have nothing against TKD, just what I saw on the Olympics...

 

[absolute hardgainer]

A couple of things:

The only TKD federation that has IOC recognition is the WTF. The ITF, General Choi's organization and independent TKD federations do NOT have IOC recognition.

The WTF mainly achieved its recognition through the influence of Ung Yong Kim (spelling) who is still a very powerful man in the IOC. He is also a very corrupt man.

Sports style WTF TKD has very little if anything to do with self-defense or real fighting, it is a sport and should be treated as a sport, nothing more.

While I am not a supporter of the WTF, I did cheer for Lauren Burns and Daniel Trenton, Australia's TKD gold and silver medalists.

hardgainer (my $0.02)

 

[LeviathanX]

Unlike other sports, the Olympics is not the holy grail in martial arts competition. I would say the International Full-Contact championships that are held in various countries throughout the year are a much greater test of skill than the Olympics.

I'm not as familiar with the politics of the WTF and the ITF being that I'm a Tang Soo Do practitioner under an independent Korean organization, but I do know that TKD (and I've discussed this endlessly on martial arts messageboards) has lost a great deal of its edge since its unification as Korea's national sport in the 1960s (in fact all Korean martial arts used to be under one name called Tae Kyon or Soo Bahk Ki). It has become very Americanized, and focuses far to much on competition strategy rather than technique, distance control, and power control.

In general, TKD martial artists are quick, but sloppy from what I've seen.

 

[SleepingFist]

OK, so you guys are telling me the problem is politics? I admit, I do not keep up with Korean systems...and don't care too much for anybodys' body politic but it does concern me that this display should even be associated with the martial arts?
I am more than aware that the Olympics is not the holy grail for martial arts...I also agree that far more interesting compettiton can be enjoyed elsewhere (my bedroom if I'm lucky..Superbabe, are you listening), however, in a world where so many people are exposed to the Olympics....do you not feel it gives a poor representation of ALL martial art, I mean, who out of the uninitiated public knows the difference between say, Tae Kwan Do and Chow Gar for instance? It is this that is my point. If martial arts is to be represented, should it not seem to be a martial art as opposed to a West Country Shin Kicking competition?
Absolute Hardgainer and Leviathan, you clearly know vastly more about Korean arts than I do (as I am totally stupid on this one) but are you not concerned about the impression that this leaves? Can you just say "That is Olympic drivel and thats' that" or do you not feel a little resentful that what is seen of our great and noble arts should look so pants? Politics aside....not everybody knows what you know....

 

[LeviathanX]

To be honest, tournament competition is not truly a test of one's skill as a martial artist. It is a test of one's skill at reading an opponent, and being the fastest one to respond in a given situation. However, every instructor will tell you that martial arts is 80% mind and 20% body. What happens when these prize-winning fighters hit 30 or 40 and are unable to win competitions? Why are there 60 year old Grandmasters that could still beat a 20 year old champion (I've seen it happen)? The reason is because too many of the recent martial artists of the past decade have not learned self-discipline and the mental-part of training. They have learned how to do 540 degree flip kicks, while the traditionalists have learned how to focus their energy through basic (and practical) techniques. Not only that, but a true martial artist should gain a sense of culture and history for his/her art. This will help them appreciate the path that others have followed so they will respect themselves, their instructor, and their martial art (and martial arts in general).

In tournament competition, you merely have to hit your opponent in a designated target area to score. In other words, power is often sacrificed for speed. This is fine if you have learned the proper way to generate power from the waist and breathe correctly, but so many tournament fighters don't start with the basics and never get a good foundation.

Currently, I'm a 3rd Degree Black Belt in Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan and will be testing for 4th Degree Black Belt (Master) within the next year. After 15 years of training, I've seen those people come and go who only want to fight in competition or learn the fancy techniques. Do you learn those techniques in a traditional atmosphere? Yes... and even some more advanced techniques that aren't demonstrated anymore, but they are used simply for conditioning and not for sparring.

I know people don't know how to fight if they are trying to throw 360 degree inside-outside crescents in a competition. If you've ever seen two Masters spar, they usually stand perfectly still for a while watching their opponent, looking for openings, and then only strike once. That one strike is all it takes to score... not 30 techniques to bash your opponent and hope to score.

In the end, martial arts is a lifestyle for myself and many others out there - the principles serve you in life as well as the dojang (school). It is very hard to have patience for those that disrespect the art, but I see martial arts as a very personal thing - let them do as they choose and don't get involved in the politics.

 

[SleepingFist]

Leviathan, you make some very valid points and from a phylisophical stand point I would say for the most part I agree with you. I have studied for thirty years (I say this not for an egotistical point but your post did make me feel that you were talking to a bit of a novice and I think I can get away with saying...I'm not...though I now think I may be egotistical...oh lets not go there) and in that time I have seen some quite wonderful things and some crap and have only been involved in politics once....on the receiveing end...typical. I agree martial art...and I do mean 'art' is a very personal (perhaps subjective) thing and as that personal thing, I like to see it respected and the people who practice the arts respected.
I whole heartededly agree that over the last two decades in particular, the discipline has dropped off (in many cases vanished) and there are too many fat, can't move can't teach instructors out there and yes, Ip Shui is a great favourite of mine at 76 giving some Chinese provincial champions a good slap for the impudence of suggesting he was old.
That aside I was still horrifed at the Olympics. Your points have actually helped me see why....
I have seen some competitions in my time and lost a few while I was at it...there was good and there was bad but there were standards. The standards were much to do with the quality of what the competitors were trying to achieve, an extrenal expression of an internal desire to be excellent. I have seen other sports and I have on very few occasions considered the competitor not even worthy of turning up. I thought this during the Olympics.
You see, when I watch Olympic boxing (again, this can be deemed a personal journey for some) I do expect to see boxing not windsurfing, tiddlywinks or Olympic baking. I expect quality opponents, demonstrating solid foundations, physical conditioning, control, balance and good technique in their craft. If I turn on to watch Olympic wrestling, I do not expect to see two men competing in a melon seed spitting contest.
So help me out here; I realy know where you are coming from with competitors demonstrating impractical techniques (its so nice when they are done well), I know what you mean when you say there is a low quality of discipline and so on (I think from what I have seen the Korean arts are still pretty disciplined over here in England but I may be wrong) but what I saw was not Tae Kwan Do. It was no martial art I have ever seen and there was not much martial and there was no art and whilst in my journey I have no intention of studying Tae Kwan Do, I did expect the Olympics to honour some tradition of the arts, as they do in Judo, wrestling and fencing and so on and not turn it into a joke.
Knowledge that is not shared is storage and is thus not knowledge. I may be going too far...you will probably stop me if I do, but if the standards of the Olympics and the 'thing' that has been created is soooo appallingly dissimilar to the thing it is supposed to represent are we not as martial artists in danger of allowing factors other than excellence guide us and in doing so, do we not send out a message to those who do not know better, that 1) we have no standards and be 2) we are willing to condone the misrepresentation of our arts?

 

[LeviathanX]

SleepingFist... I can respect your point-of-view and your experience in the martial arts (especially if you've studied consistently for 30 years). For only studying half that amount of time, I can only relate back to how things were done in 1986, but even then things were much more disciplined and respected. I attend a traditional school taught by a former Korean Osan Air Force Base Instructor (Grandmaster Tong In Chang), and it bothers me when I see the American attitude and lack of respect it embodies being brought into the dojang.

I think you are too specific in some of your comments about Tae Kwon Do in the Olympics. In fact, I know many Judo practitioners that are against Judo's representation in the Olympics. I don't really fear that the misrepresentation of these arts in competition will have any long-lasting effect as long as there are instructors out there who are willing to teach the "old way". Sure, the public may get the wrong idea about the purpose of martial arts, but what they are watching is martial sport. If someone would make the distinction, I don't think as many martial artists would feel the way you and I feel.

 

[SleepingFist]

Mmmm, yep I concede the Martial sport aspect. I think my problem is I have a 'martial artist head' which gets in the way of my 'its just TV head' or my 'damn that's stupid head' and then I go to Elite fitness for some light relief and BAMM Kapoooy, I go off on one.
My Judo freinds are very competition orientated and have no idea about good Japanese Judo, so I don't really get too far in conversation with most of them...apart from one who studied in Japan for 23 years and calls British Judo 'Shoulder Jutsu' which unfortunately takes some people a little by surpirse and not being a big thrower (as in knowledgeable thrower) I can't say from my experience how true that is.
I have one question for you though; in an earlier post you said the international full contact competitions were more representative of the grail of martial art as opposed to the Olympics....but in your latest post (I'm grateful for it 'cuz you have kept me on my toes and made some good informative points) you say people are watching martial sport. I don't want to labor the point but the fact that it is a sport is not a valid point... the point is, despite everything we have said....we are agreeing on one thing....it's crap.
Oh, one more thing...I have trained consistently for 30 years and .....I'd swap it all to be 5 again.

 

[LeviathanX]

Well, I should say that international full-contact championships are the holy grail of martial sport. The reason I say this is because the only way to win is through good technique and control of power. These small "tap" kicks that you see in Tae Kwon Do don't cut it in full-contact matches. I do agree, however, that competition is the least important aspect of martial art training, and some great martial artists in the past have avoided competition because they believe it is an egotistical endeavour.

 

[SleepingFist]

I had to do it so that I had done it...my problem came from going from full contact to semi and then back to full contact again. If I was not getting disqualified I was getting beaten...so I never realy got round to having an ego, more bruises realy.
I found that as I became more mature in my art (I reckon I am still pretty daft as it goes) I left the whole idea of competition behind...does not suite system anyway. Do you continue to compete now that you are well ranked...?