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sustanon dosage?
- Thread starter slipanot
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krishna
New member
Madcow2 said:
I didn't just say what I said out of ignorance. I've done a lot of research on sust as it was the choice for my first cycle. However, you do have valid points and offer a new perspective on the issue. Thank you for shedding light on the matter. You obviously have a lot of knowledge on esters and gear. Much props!
krishna
New member
(QUOTE)You didn't prove your point by stating the HRT item. In fact you proved me right. They actually inject sust once per month for HRT, not every week. As BB's we inject once per week due to the fact that after a couple weeks the levels will begin to fall. They peak and valley over the month. By doing it once per week you'll get the most from each ester. I've said it before and I'll say it again...this is the ony board that I've been on that is so adamant about injecting sust eod. If you look at the practical application it doesn't make sense. If you like to do eod, then just use prop. I'm done with this... (QUOTE)
This info was from makavelli. This is where I'm coming from too. He just said it better.
This info was from makavelli. This is where I'm coming from too. He just said it better.
krishna said:
No problem - you can probably research quite a bit and not come accross the reason people talk about the EOD protocol. Even though people will say it, very few actually understand what's behind it and know what they are saying. I don't know as much as a lot of people (and wouldn't it be nice if those people made the chart I've referenced and listed their assumptions and sources) but what I described is basically what's going on and that's the foundation of the idea that you should shoot it EOD or whatever to minimize fluctuations. But like I said, it has never been determined how much this (constant blood levels) really matters when looking at sides and gains. I'm neither here nor there on the issue myself 1x per week works for people and 2x per week probably eliminates the lion's share of potential issues.
I think a lot of people prefer sust because they are comparing it to a single long ester on an equal mg basis. Sust has those short esters which on a weight basis (mg) contain a significantly more testosterone so it hits you faster and harder. Sort of like comparing 600mg of cyp weekly to 600mg of prop or even suspension, there's just a lot more testosterone in the prop or suspension so it's not apples to apples.
Now to be honest, the last time I did a serious cycle was back in 1995ish (this is one of the reasons why I don't track down that data myself, because it really is of no use to me and curriosty only goes so far). In the past I've shot sust weekly and 2x per week and I didn't preceive any difference - not exactly a good controlled experiment that I'd stake anything of value on but for the most part it seemed the same. Personally, I'd rather make my own adjustments with a single ester rather than a blend like sust. So much less complicated and none of this stuff to bother with. Plus it's usually cheaper. If I wanted to use long esters and not wait, I'd get some prop to fill in the first 2 weeks and then fade it out (frontloading will work too).
This stuff is good to know though. Your opinion can be on either side of the sust issue (like I've said, there is nothing conclusive either way as to the value of incrementally more constant blood levels in relation to gains/sides) but understanding the issues of esters with their weights and compounded layering of long esters which builds blood levels over weeks before plateauing is good to understand if this is something you choose to involve yourself in.
Since I haven't used sust in over a decade I'm at least glad that someone finds this stuff useful.
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krishna said:
A lot of the information in there is wrong. The reason why they have those esters is so that as each one builds and then expires another is already building and supplements the total testosterone available. By the time the 3 weeks is up (not 1 month and HRT has been known to accelerate the dosing schedule depending on the Dr) you take another injection and the prop builds in again to supplement the waining concentraions of the final long ester. If you use a shot of a single long ester you start low, peak, and then fall. With the multiple esters the idea is you get a flatter level over the duration because another ester is rising as the previous one falls. You don't get as high a peak (assume all mg are equal) but you don't have the dips on either end.
I don't know if that makes sense to you. If you saw a graph it would be crystal clear - think a line vs. a concave shape like a hill. The line is actually a series of hills but the average of the heights (it's all testosterone) is a flat line (or flatter anyway - nothing is perfect and it's all an estimate). Once you accelerate the dosages beyond what it was designed for you start injecting a new batch before the old batch has run it's coarse and you get a bunch of non synchronized hills - the lack of synchronization (because the prop and phenylprop hills already ran out for example) means certain hills get bigger and the new short ester hills rise and fall in the mix of the higher long ester concentrations which are going to build over a course of weeks. Someone mentioned no use for a geek chart before but it really makes visualizing this stuff much more clear and rather than me busting my ass trying to write it and you working hard to try to understand me, a chart is clear as day and you say "ohh, I see," in 2 seconds.
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LVTitan
New member
Madcow2 said:
haha that was me. i know exactly what you are saying, but ED or EOD injections of sust just dont make sense if you understand how the esters work. correct, the prop esters from shot 2 will start working as soon as the enanth/undec esters from shot 1 wear off if you shoot more like every week or 2x week.
if you are shooting ed then off course the prop will be releasing ED, but you still have all the longer esters that havent even started releasing yet, and pretty soon you have a serious buildup of test that keeps going up and up.
iamnikvanhelsing
New member
Hmmm. Correct me if I'm wrong then, but would it not be best, in view of how Sust works/is designed, to shoot say 1000mg every 3 weeks resulting in approx 300mg'ish being released every week? Would this not keep blood levels super constant? That makes sense to me from what I've read today.
LVTitan said:
That's not really right. The longest esters will provide test for 3 weeks after injection (decanoate). As you inject weekly this and the iso ester start layering on each other. If you only use a single long ester you get the same thing. Using enanthate or cyp will do the same thing and this is why it takes multiple weeks to kick in as the concentration builds. It's not as if when you inject every week it changes the release or the halflife, concentration just builds until it plateaus. The whole idea of frontloading is to get concentrations up earlier and arrive at the plateau earlier so you gain faster and have a longer proportion of your cycle at peak concentrations. This is common every time you use a long ester so if you are using anything based on cyp, enathate, decanoate or any of the more obscure other ones - this is what's happening. You might be shooting it weekly but even if a drug has a 7 day halflife that still means 50% is in you on day 8, 25% on day 14 so there is layering and concentrations are building.
Anyway, to make it simple assume that you are using deca and shooting it 1x per week because the ester is the same as test decanoate. Let's just forget about the middle iso/phenyl esters for simplicity. So you are running deca and shooting it once per week - constant dosage - say 500mg. In a deca only cycles these concentrations will build and maybe around - 4/5 weeks (not really sure but it's not too far off) you will arrive at peak concentrations and your weekly injection of deca will basically maintain this level until you stop taking it at which point the concentrations will gradually taper down over 3 weeks until you start your PCT. So that's basically what's going on with the long ester.
So now you have your deca cycle and you decide to throw some prop in, but you are only going to shoot it 1x per week with the deca. This is a short ester and it's in and out fast, it's not going to layer week to week and arrive at a steady concentration because the ester doesn't last that long. So instead of a nice smoothly maintained concentration from just the deca you now get this odd spike for a few days after your injection time.
Doesn't make a lot of sense does it? Why run the prop at all if you are only going to get a weird spike due to the injection frequency. I don't think anyone would run nandralone dec weekly and throw in a random shot of test prop 1x per week yet this is essentially what's going on with the sust. The phenylprop isn't much better, iso is long enough for weekly from what I recall.
To be honest - I can't explain it any better than that. Just think about running a decanoate cycle and what that means to blood levels as your injections layer over the overlapping halflives and concentrations build - now add a 1x weekly shot of prop that gives you this odd spike for a few days every week. This is what's going on with sustanon 1x weekly and why people say this. Like I said, this is what happens there's really no way of getting around this stuff unless one chooses to believe something other than fairly established facts. As to how much it matters - who knows. I couldn't care less. But really - this is the idea behind the chart because even though I've typed it several times I'm obviously not getting through some reason. With a chart, it's self-evident.
So, if this is good enough and it facilitates understanding then great, if not I don't know what to tell you. If you get me the info I requested before, I'll make you a chart or explain to you how to make it if you are curious enough about this. I honestly can't do anything more than to explain to you the rational behind the EOD. It's not something I care about in the least bit so I just can't rationalize any more time on it and like I said before, how much of a difference it really makes is very debatable (then again, a prop only cycle shooting it 1x per week is fairly iffy so figure that) and using a single ester is cheaper anyway if you don't want to even deal with it (just adjust for ester weight and either wait for concentration to build, use a fast acting drug early, or frontload). What you want to do with this is up to you.
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