Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below Ive just recently started my first sust cycle and im wondering what would be the best was to split up the dosage. should I run it 250mg every 4 days or every 5 days. I know alot of people on there first just run 250 a week but I feel I would benifit more from frequent injections. just my 2cents. what do you guys think?
sustanon dosage?
- Thread starter slipanot
- Start date
digimon7068
New member
slipanot said:
I'm in the middle of my second week and once a week is working pretty well for me so far. . .added 25mg of d-bol ed at beginning of week two, though.
CENTURION44
New member
i do my sust injects...MON and THUR.......every 4 days will keep steady blood levels....
krishna
New member
jayboy said:
The whole design in sust was that you don't have to keep the prop levels constant. When the prop esters run out, the medium range esters will start releasing, and when those wear out, the enth will start releasing. The point is not to keep the esters constant, it's to keep the test constant. Sust does that if you shoot it no more than every 5 days (actually designed for once a week). Not using sust as it was designed is what will cause fluctuations in your levels.
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Extra_Strong
Well-known member
krishna said:
hummm
krishna
New member
I used it once a week for 10 weeks on my first cycle and I gained 28 pounds with little sides. If you shoot more than once a week you'll build up the long range ester leaving you with high doses toward the end of your cycle, and a much bigger risk of sides. You won't get better results either because your levels will be all over the place.
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krishna said:
I'm sorry but that's not correct.
Weekly dosing is not the way the product was designed. People should read the Organon pamphlet. There is a copy located here: http://emc.medicines.org.uk/emc/assets/c/html/displaydoc.asp?documentid=5202
Sustanon 100 is designed for dosage every 2 weeks
Sustanon 250 is designed for dosage every 3 weeks
They arrived at the optimal layering of esters in each product to provide constant blood levels at the specified dosage interval. In the case of Sustanon 250, 3 weeks. It's meant to be a supperior (more constant, longer lasting) testosterone product for replacement therapy. Meaning not designed for building muscle on a 1 week injection interval which incidentally does not mitigate the effect of compounding long esters and building blood concentrations for the first few weeks of a cycle administered as such.
With more frequent injections (i.e. anything less than the 3 week design) you get instability due to the short esters. A mg to mg comparison doesn't tell the whole story because the ester weights for the long esters are significantly higher (i.e. in the same 1mg dose you get more testosterone from a short/light ester than a longer/heavier one). This further skews the product's testosterone composition to the shorter ester range than a simple mg to mg comparison would indicate. You can get an idea of this on the pamphlet where under the ester breakdown for Sustanon 250 it provides "equivalent to 176mg of testosterone" - I imagine the weights of the esters make up the remaining 74mg. Roughly 30% of the total product by weight.
All that said, plenty of people grow well on weekly dosages. 2x per week is probably a little better. If you are taking 750mg, why not do every couple days like prop and nix it. As to how much effect this has upon gains or sides, it's never been studied so no one can say.
I just have a pet peave about people saying it was designed for weekly injection intervals when the whole idea of hormone replacement is to make therapy as convenient as possible and the general public widely favors fewer injections.
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krishna
New member
Madcow2 said:
So you're saying that since it was designed to be taked every 2-3 WEEKS, that twice a week would be better than once a week? You posted a good thread, but what's your reasoning for this? If it's meant to be taken at longer intervals, once a week would be closer to its designed use then twice a week. If you're using this as a reason to use twice a week then your not making much sense. Say a cow food company said to feed the cows once every two days. Other people suggest to do it once a day (which you can similate to what I'm saying), but then you say no the manufacturer says once every two days so I'm gonna do it twice a day. Doesn't make much sense logically.
It's a matter of constant blood levels. The product is designed for consistency over 3 weeks - basically the short esters begin first and then are supplemented by the longer esters further out for a consistency in blood levels. Each ester has a separate halflife and this is how they backed into the ratios of the esters when they designed the product.
By injecting more frequently - even though 1x per week is closer to the specified 1x per 3 weeks - you now get into the issue of the long esters layering on each other and building concentration. In addition, the short esters spike periodically upon injection rather than raising the baseline and then dropping off as the longer esters begin to release as there is already very significant concentration with more frequent dosing.
The absolute best way to illustrate this is on a chart. Adjust each of the mg content for ester weight so you get actual testosterone, then knock it down by 50% at a given ester's halflife, just make some linear assumption for scaling it down in between. It would be really beneficial to deal with the release and build up of each ester also rather than assume that the whole 100mg of test dec is available on day 1 of each injection because that just isn't the case. Anyway, sum it all accross and you get your blood levels for each day of your cycle. Repeat this for a few different dosage intervals. Create a chart and take a look at how they compare. I assume this is basically how they designed the product in the first place - just solving for levels based on a single long-term injection
To be honest, a few people have made some charts but I have never once seen anyone adjust for ester weight or nor for the release of each ester so I've seen nothing truly valid one way or another (and to be honest, you should assume that all of them are being very kind and mitigating the issue of the spike rather that depicting what's reall going on as these are fairly material and have a dampening effect if not adjusted for). If someone provided me ester weight for each ester and then a good assumption about release and rising blood concentrations for each ester I'd be happy to make the chart and put it to rest. That said, I want verified data that I can confirm - no opinions or speculations, I value my time too much to put bullshit like that in there. I've made this offer before but no one has yet ever gotten me the data I require.
By injecting more frequently - even though 1x per week is closer to the specified 1x per 3 weeks - you now get into the issue of the long esters layering on each other and building concentration. In addition, the short esters spike periodically upon injection rather than raising the baseline and then dropping off as the longer esters begin to release as there is already very significant concentration with more frequent dosing.
The absolute best way to illustrate this is on a chart. Adjust each of the mg content for ester weight so you get actual testosterone, then knock it down by 50% at a given ester's halflife, just make some linear assumption for scaling it down in between. It would be really beneficial to deal with the release and build up of each ester also rather than assume that the whole 100mg of test dec is available on day 1 of each injection because that just isn't the case. Anyway, sum it all accross and you get your blood levels for each day of your cycle. Repeat this for a few different dosage intervals. Create a chart and take a look at how they compare. I assume this is basically how they designed the product in the first place - just solving for levels based on a single long-term injection
To be honest, a few people have made some charts but I have never once seen anyone adjust for ester weight or nor for the release of each ester so I've seen nothing truly valid one way or another (and to be honest, you should assume that all of them are being very kind and mitigating the issue of the spike rather that depicting what's reall going on as these are fairly material and have a dampening effect if not adjusted for). If someone provided me ester weight for each ester and then a good assumption about release and rising blood concentrations for each ester I'd be happy to make the chart and put it to rest. That said, I want verified data that I can confirm - no opinions or speculations, I value my time too much to put bullshit like that in there. I've made this offer before but no one has yet ever gotten me the data I require.
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LVTitan
New member
a chart doesn't always relate to real world results. i did a sust cycle of 500mg/week.
i shot 250mg 2x week and i had no problems. it worked just fine and i made good gains. was this the ABSOLUTE BEST WAY TO TAKE IT ? who knows for sure, but it gave me the results i wanted. i'll take real world results over some geeks chart any day.
i shot 250mg 2x week and i had no problems. it worked just fine and i made good gains. was this the ABSOLUTE BEST WAY TO TAKE IT ? who knows for sure, but it gave me the results i wanted. i'll take real world results over some geeks chart any day.
LVTitan said:
I said exactly that in post #14, second paragraph from the bottom.
You don't need a chart to understand what's going on if you understand esters, halflives and how they layer on each other for a given injection frequency. I don't think the other poster (and most people here) has a good handle on this so I suggested a chart.
The main issue issue was that I believe both of you thought Sustanon was designed and optimized for a weekly injection schedule and that simply isn't true and this is where you get into this issue because BBers don't use the product as it was intended and this creates the uneven blood levels. Shoot 1cc every 3 weeks and you are golden but no one really wants to do that.
People spend all day tweaking everything about their diet, workout, drug intake to the nth degree. This question comes up all the time and there is always erroneous information posted on it. It would be nice to put it to rest once and for all but what is really required is a well done clean chart to illustrate it for the people that don't understand all of this - probably useful to solve the dbol dosing thing too since people claim their real world results taking it 1x per day even with a very short halflife are just as good as breaking it up. I have no use for such charts. Obviously neither do you. But, this crap keeps coming up and there is always a bunch of false information on it so I see no way of stopping it otherwise.
All the scientific jargon aside, do your shots Mon and Thur, or once a week its not going to make any noticable difference...........
Madcow2 said:
I'll just quote myself so it's clear. No one has this answer and I have not seen the calcs properly done that would show exactly what the fluctuation is. I have also not seen anyone establish how good/bad a given level of non-constant blood levels are and how that impacts gains. Common sense says that more even levels are better but there is also a point of diminishing returns. It you are injecting 2x per week, that probably deals with a big portion of it, 3x a bit more, 4x might not be worth the incremental hassle.
Shit, people are still growing from taking a single dose of dbol a day rather than spreading it out (running dbol alone). That's got to be far far worse than deciding between 2-3 injections per week of sust (yes, I've done the dbol math for people as it's easy - just search my posts here).
EDIT: of course a really easy answer is to just use a single ester and sidestep all this crap.
krishna
New member
Madcow2 said:
I didn't just say what I said out of ignorance. I've done a lot of research on sust as it was the choice for my first cycle. However, you do have valid points and offer a new perspective on the issue. Thank you for shedding light on the matter. You obviously have a lot of knowledge on esters and gear. Much props!
krishna
New member
(QUOTE)You didn't prove your point by stating the HRT item. In fact you proved me right. They actually inject sust once per month for HRT, not every week. As BB's we inject once per week due to the fact that after a couple weeks the levels will begin to fall. They peak and valley over the month. By doing it once per week you'll get the most from each ester. I've said it before and I'll say it again...this is the ony board that I've been on that is so adamant about injecting sust eod. If you look at the practical application it doesn't make sense. If you like to do eod, then just use prop. I'm done with this... (QUOTE)
This info was from makavelli. This is where I'm coming from too. He just said it better.
This info was from makavelli. This is where I'm coming from too. He just said it better.
krishna said:
No problem - you can probably research quite a bit and not come accross the reason people talk about the EOD protocol. Even though people will say it, very few actually understand what's behind it and know what they are saying. I don't know as much as a lot of people (and wouldn't it be nice if those people made the chart I've referenced and listed their assumptions and sources) but what I described is basically what's going on and that's the foundation of the idea that you should shoot it EOD or whatever to minimize fluctuations. But like I said, it has never been determined how much this (constant blood levels) really matters when looking at sides and gains. I'm neither here nor there on the issue myself 1x per week works for people and 2x per week probably eliminates the lion's share of potential issues.
I think a lot of people prefer sust because they are comparing it to a single long ester on an equal mg basis. Sust has those short esters which on a weight basis (mg) contain a significantly more testosterone so it hits you faster and harder. Sort of like comparing 600mg of cyp weekly to 600mg of prop or even suspension, there's just a lot more testosterone in the prop or suspension so it's not apples to apples.
Now to be honest, the last time I did a serious cycle was back in 1995ish (this is one of the reasons why I don't track down that data myself, because it really is of no use to me and curriosty only goes so far). In the past I've shot sust weekly and 2x per week and I didn't preceive any difference - not exactly a good controlled experiment that I'd stake anything of value on but for the most part it seemed the same. Personally, I'd rather make my own adjustments with a single ester rather than a blend like sust. So much less complicated and none of this stuff to bother with. Plus it's usually cheaper. If I wanted to use long esters and not wait, I'd get some prop to fill in the first 2 weeks and then fade it out (frontloading will work too).
This stuff is good to know though. Your opinion can be on either side of the sust issue (like I've said, there is nothing conclusive either way as to the value of incrementally more constant blood levels in relation to gains/sides) but understanding the issues of esters with their weights and compounded layering of long esters which builds blood levels over weeks before plateauing is good to understand if this is something you choose to involve yourself in.
Since I haven't used sust in over a decade I'm at least glad that someone finds this stuff useful.
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krishna said:
A lot of the information in there is wrong. The reason why they have those esters is so that as each one builds and then expires another is already building and supplements the total testosterone available. By the time the 3 weeks is up (not 1 month and HRT has been known to accelerate the dosing schedule depending on the Dr) you take another injection and the prop builds in again to supplement the waining concentraions of the final long ester. If you use a shot of a single long ester you start low, peak, and then fall. With the multiple esters the idea is you get a flatter level over the duration because another ester is rising as the previous one falls. You don't get as high a peak (assume all mg are equal) but you don't have the dips on either end.
I don't know if that makes sense to you. If you saw a graph it would be crystal clear - think a line vs. a concave shape like a hill. The line is actually a series of hills but the average of the heights (it's all testosterone) is a flat line (or flatter anyway - nothing is perfect and it's all an estimate). Once you accelerate the dosages beyond what it was designed for you start injecting a new batch before the old batch has run it's coarse and you get a bunch of non synchronized hills - the lack of synchronization (because the prop and phenylprop hills already ran out for example) means certain hills get bigger and the new short ester hills rise and fall in the mix of the higher long ester concentrations which are going to build over a course of weeks. Someone mentioned no use for a geek chart before but it really makes visualizing this stuff much more clear and rather than me busting my ass trying to write it and you working hard to try to understand me, a chart is clear as day and you say "ohh, I see," in 2 seconds.
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LVTitan
New member
Madcow2 said:
haha that was me. i know exactly what you are saying, but ED or EOD injections of sust just dont make sense if you understand how the esters work. correct, the prop esters from shot 2 will start working as soon as the enanth/undec esters from shot 1 wear off if you shoot more like every week or 2x week.
if you are shooting ed then off course the prop will be releasing ED, but you still have all the longer esters that havent even started releasing yet, and pretty soon you have a serious buildup of test that keeps going up and up.
iamnikvanhelsing
New member
Hmmm. Correct me if I'm wrong then, but would it not be best, in view of how Sust works/is designed, to shoot say 1000mg every 3 weeks resulting in approx 300mg'ish being released every week? Would this not keep blood levels super constant? That makes sense to me from what I've read today.
LVTitan said:
That's not really right. The longest esters will provide test for 3 weeks after injection (decanoate). As you inject weekly this and the iso ester start layering on each other. If you only use a single long ester you get the same thing. Using enanthate or cyp will do the same thing and this is why it takes multiple weeks to kick in as the concentration builds. It's not as if when you inject every week it changes the release or the halflife, concentration just builds until it plateaus. The whole idea of frontloading is to get concentrations up earlier and arrive at the plateau earlier so you gain faster and have a longer proportion of your cycle at peak concentrations. This is common every time you use a long ester so if you are using anything based on cyp, enathate, decanoate or any of the more obscure other ones - this is what's happening. You might be shooting it weekly but even if a drug has a 7 day halflife that still means 50% is in you on day 8, 25% on day 14 so there is layering and concentrations are building.
Anyway, to make it simple assume that you are using deca and shooting it 1x per week because the ester is the same as test decanoate. Let's just forget about the middle iso/phenyl esters for simplicity. So you are running deca and shooting it once per week - constant dosage - say 500mg. In a deca only cycles these concentrations will build and maybe around - 4/5 weeks (not really sure but it's not too far off) you will arrive at peak concentrations and your weekly injection of deca will basically maintain this level until you stop taking it at which point the concentrations will gradually taper down over 3 weeks until you start your PCT. So that's basically what's going on with the long ester.
So now you have your deca cycle and you decide to throw some prop in, but you are only going to shoot it 1x per week with the deca. This is a short ester and it's in and out fast, it's not going to layer week to week and arrive at a steady concentration because the ester doesn't last that long. So instead of a nice smoothly maintained concentration from just the deca you now get this odd spike for a few days after your injection time.
Doesn't make a lot of sense does it? Why run the prop at all if you are only going to get a weird spike due to the injection frequency. I don't think anyone would run nandralone dec weekly and throw in a random shot of test prop 1x per week yet this is essentially what's going on with the sust. The phenylprop isn't much better, iso is long enough for weekly from what I recall.
To be honest - I can't explain it any better than that. Just think about running a decanoate cycle and what that means to blood levels as your injections layer over the overlapping halflives and concentrations build - now add a 1x weekly shot of prop that gives you this odd spike for a few days every week. This is what's going on with sustanon 1x weekly and why people say this. Like I said, this is what happens there's really no way of getting around this stuff unless one chooses to believe something other than fairly established facts. As to how much it matters - who knows. I couldn't care less. But really - this is the idea behind the chart because even though I've typed it several times I'm obviously not getting through some reason. With a chart, it's self-evident.
So, if this is good enough and it facilitates understanding then great, if not I don't know what to tell you. If you get me the info I requested before, I'll make you a chart or explain to you how to make it if you are curious enough about this. I honestly can't do anything more than to explain to you the rational behind the EOD. It's not something I care about in the least bit so I just can't rationalize any more time on it and like I said before, how much of a difference it really makes is very debatable (then again, a prop only cycle shooting it 1x per week is fairly iffy so figure that) and using a single ester is cheaper anyway if you don't want to even deal with it (just adjust for ester weight and either wait for concentration to build, use a fast acting drug early, or frontload). What you want to do with this is up to you.
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fbodyguy02
New member
krishna said:
Dude! Come on man.. grow some BALLZ...
j/ksay no more.. if u are taking 250 mg dosis then 1 shot per week ,, if u are taking 500mg split it out 250 / 250 every 4 days . And if u are taking over 750 MG then u should split it out on 3 dosis. and if ur case is like mine .. 375Mg os Sust on 1 shot (1.5CC) u should be OK
